Early JUF

[Jyst]

Just won this Juf at auction , couldn't resist bidding I've fancied a round plate Juf for sometime , they dont come up for sale very often.
It's in quite good condition with not many issues , I hope.
The dial has been chipped and the case could do with a polish.
I've set in I beat and it runs for an hour then stops so will look at that first.

 

[Ingulphus]

Jyst -

You have a treasure - this is a very early JUF indeed, with the Harder Patent dial and an early pendulum, and the four-glass models, such as yours, are quite scarce. I envy you!

Best regards,

Mark

 

[Jyst]

Thank you Mark that is reassuring . John

 

[Schatznut]

That is a sweet clock - I'm envious!

 

[Dells]

Hi John I see that on eBay but forgot it I am envious.
Dell

 

[Jyst]

Dell it was actually down your way, Gardiner Houlgate ,
I drove down to collect it this morning. John

 

[etmb61]

Is the number 3374 or 5374?

 

[Ken M]

Looks like 6374 to me, but.....

 

[etmb61]

Looks like 6374 to me, but.....

That would be higher than any numbered Harder movement I've recorded.

 

[Jyst]

It's 5374

 

[Dells]

Yes Corsham is not that far from me.

 

[MUN CHOR-WENG]

Jyst,

I have one almost identical to your clock with some minor differences. As can be seen from the picture below, the patent inscriptions on your clock dial covers a wider circle while mine covers a smaller circle.




The position of the ratchet bridge in your clock is located at the 11 o'clock position while mine is at the 3 o'clock position.
My clock with serial number 4471 R was made earlier than your clock and at present is the only on one documented with the
ratchet bridge in the 3 o'clock position with the back plate not having an unused threaded hole ( I shall explain more of this a little later ). This ratchet position was later found to be unsuitable being too close to the hanging suspension wire that sometimes rubs against it causing clock stoppage.
Picture Copyright Mun C W

The manufacturer tried to remedy this by creating a concave cut out on the ratchet bridge to increase the clearance between the ratchet bridge and the suspensioon wire. This proved to be ineffective as can be seen in the above picture the clearance was still too narrow to prevent the suspension wire from occasional rubbing against the ratchet bridge.
To solve the problem a threaded hole was created to shift the rachet bridge to the 11 o'clock position to avoid contact with the suspension wire as shown in the picture below. This was carried out to those clocks that originally had the ratchet bridge located in the 3 o'clock position.
It certainly did solve the problem, but in the process it leaves behind an unused threaded hole and this has been documented in a number of JUF round plates This can be a little confusing to those unfamiliaar with the reason of the above mentioned shift. When they encounter such back plate and they wondered what is the use of that threaded hole. In many such cases the ratchet bridge in these clock do not have the concave cut out being flat like the one found in your clock.




Eventually the manufacturer dicided to make these round movement clocks with the ratchet bridge located at the 11 o'clock position and your
clock is the second one I've documented from a patent dial round movement with the ratchet bridge in such a position. The first one I've recorded has serial number 5354 just 20 units earlier than your clock as shown below. Notice ther is no unused threaded hole in each case.


As I had mentioned earlier elsewhere, the above back plate has enabled us to identify a number of unidentified back plates listed in the Repair Guide such as Plate 1626 and 1635 as been made by JUF.
Finally, one question, take a look at the bottom of the disc pendulum of your clock to see if there is the serial number of the clock scribed there. Some of the JUF patent dial 400-day clocks have the serial number scribed under the pendulum.
For sure, you have a rare clock.

Mun C W

 

[Jyst]

Jyst,

I have one almost identical to your clock with some minor differences. As can be seen from the picture below, the patent inscriptions on your clock dial covers a wider circle while mine covers a smaller circle.


View attachment 710927

The position of the ratchet bridge in your clock is located at the 11 o'clock position while mine is at the 3 o'clock position.
My clock with serial number 4471 R was made earlier than your clock and at present is the only on one documented with the
ratchet bridge in the 3 o'clock position with the back plate not having an unused threaded hole ( I shall explain more of this a little later ). This ratchet position was later found to be unsuitable being too close to the hanging suspension wire that sometimes rubs against it causing clock stoppage. View attachment 710928 View attachment 710929
Picture Copyright Mun C W

The manufacturer tried to remedy this by creating a concave cut out on the ratchet bridge to increase the clearance between the ratchet bridge and the suspensioon wire. This proved to be ineffective as can be seen in the above picture the clearance was still too narrow to prevent the suspension wire from occasional rubbing against the ratchet bridge.
To solve the problem a threaded hole was created to shift the rachet bridge to the 11 o'clock position to avoid contact with the suspension wire as shown in the picture below. This was carried out to those clocks that originally had the ratchet bridge located in the 3 o'clock position.
It certainly did solve the problem, but in the process it leaves behind an unused threaded hole and this has been documented in a number of JUF round plates This can be a little confusing to those unfamiliaar with the reason of the above mentioned shift. When they encounter such back plate and they wondered what is the use of that threaded hole. In many such cases the ratchet bridge in these clock do not have the concave cut out being flat like the one found in your clock.

View attachment 710933


Eventually the manufacturer dicided to make these round movement clocks with the ratchet bridge located at the 11 o'clock position and your
clock is the second one I've documented from a patent dial round movement with the ratchet bridge in such a position. The first one I've recorded has serial number 5354 just 20 units earlier than your clock as shown below. Notice ther is no unused threaded hole in each case.

View attachment 710934
As I had mentioned earlier elsewhere, the above back plate has enabled us to identify a number of unidentified back plates listed in the Repair Guide such as Plate 1626 and 1635 as been made by JUF.
Finally, one question, take a look at the bottom of the disc pendulum of your clock to see if there is the serial number of the clock scribed there. Some of the JUF patent dial 400-day clocks have the serial number scribed under the pendulum.
For sure, you have a rare clock.

Mun C W

Thank you for your extensive reply it's what makes this hobby so fascinating.
I have spent some time taking it in.

Underneath the pendulum is scribed 206/48
John

 

[MUN CHOR-WENG]

Thanks for the pictures, for some reason there was no serial number found on the under side of the pendulum of your clock. A few of my JUF patent dial clocks including the one shown above have serial number scribed on the underside of the pendulum.


Mun C W

 

[GRZESIEK]

I saw this clock at the auction. The clock was repaired, see 1 axis.

 

[Jyst]

I saw this clock at the auction. The clock was repaired, see 1 axis.

View attachment 710983

Hi Grzesiek , would you elaborate on what you mean please .
I can see the gaps on the doors and unless I'm not missing something which is possible I can't see any signs of repair.
There are signs that the case has been taken apart in its history possibly for laquering and care needs to be taken on re assembly.
I noticed that the holes for the door hinges are elongated
But this is an old clock .
Would you please explain what repair you have seen.
John

 

[GRZESIEK]

Hello
I have already written -see the hole of 1 axis on the back plate. The sleeve is inserted on 1 axis .
The other holes also look strange. .
See how it looks in a similar mechanism - younger for a few years .
Regards

 

[Jyst]

Hello
I have already written -see the hole of 1 axis on the back plate. The sleeve is inserted on 1 axis .
The other holes also look strange. .
See how it looks in a similar mechanism - younger for a few years .
Regards

Thank you for your reply.
I put the plates back to back and they line up fine.
I put smoothing broaches in the center arbour , escape wheel and anchor pivot holes and they line up fine.
Also the assembled wheels move freely.
Thanks John

 

[GRZESIEK]

Do you see the sleeves he is writing about?

 

[Jyst]

Do you see the sleeves he is writing about?

Do you mean the bushes ? And i notice the offset screw has been tampered with.

 

[GRZESIEK]

I wrote several times but if you don't see the sleeve on the 1st hole, I can't explain you otherwise

 

[Jyst]

I have seen several Bush like that so I think we had better leave it there. Thank you. John

 

[GRZESIEK]

Now it must stay, someone has repaired this clock. I don't know if it was necessary. I hope it will work properly.
Regards

 

[Jyst]

A postscript to today, I wanted to evaluate the movement and it has the weakest mainspring I've seen so needs renewing , the wheels and anchor pivots etc are in good condition, as noted the bushing could do with tidying and it needs a new longer SS.
The main problem could be the dial being chipped and filled.
I gave it a quick clean and reassembled it
It has been running now for 3 hours giving 250 rotation.
It will be a while until I get around to working on it so will see how it goes.
Thank you Grzesiek regards John

 

[MUN CHOR-WENG]

GRZESIEK ,

The picture of the round movement back plate you posted above appears to have come from an early louvre or bandstand model.
Very few such model have been documented and I am wondering if you can be kind enough to provide pictures of the full front vew and back view of your clock.

Mun C W

 

[Mothyman]

Jyst,

I have one almost identical to your clock with some minor differences. As can be seen from the picture below, the patent inscriptions on your clock dial covers a wider circle while mine covers a smaller circle.


View attachment 710927

The position of the ratchet bridge in your clock is located at the 11 o'clock position while mine is at the 3 o'clock position.
My clock with serial number 4471 R was made earlier than your clock and at present is the only on one documented with the
ratchet bridge in the 3 o'clock position with the back plate not having an unused threaded hole ( I shall explain more of this a little later ). This ratchet position was later found to be unsuitable being too close to the hanging suspension wire that sometimes rubs against it causing clock stoppage. View attachment 710928 View attachment 710929
Picture Copyright Mun C W

The manufacturer tried to remedy this by creating a concave cut out on the ratchet bridge to increase the clearance between the ratchet bridge and the suspensioon wire. This proved to be ineffective as can be seen in the above picture the clearance was still too narrow to prevent the suspension wire from occasional rubbing against the ratchet bridge.
To solve the problem a threaded hole was created to shift the rachet bridge to the 11 o'clock position to avoid contact with the suspension wire as shown in the picture below. This was carried out to those clocks that originally had the ratchet bridge located in the 3 o'clock position.
It certainly did solve the problem, but in the process it leaves behind an unused threaded hole and this has been documented in a number of JUF round plates This can be a little confusing to those unfamiliaar with the reason of the above mentioned shift. When they encounter such back plate and they wondered what is the use of that threaded hole. In many such cases the ratchet bridge in these clock do not have the concave cut out being flat like the one found in your clock.

View attachment 710933


Eventually the manufacturer dicided to make these round movement clocks with the ratchet bridge located at the 11 o'clock position and your
clock is the second one I've documented from a patent dial round movement with the ratchet bridge in such a position. The first one I've recorded has serial number 5354 just 20 units earlier than your clock as shown below. Notice ther is no unused threaded hole in each case.

View attachment 710934
As I had mentioned earlier elsewhere, the above back plate has enabled us to identify a number of unidentified back plates listed in the Repair Guide such as Plate 1626 and 1635 as been made by JUF.
Finally, one question, take a look at the bottom of the disc pendulum of your clock to see if there is the serial number of the clock scribed there. Some of the JUF patent dial 400-day clocks have the serial number scribed under the pendulum.
For sure, you have a rare clock.

Mun C W

This is clock number 4473 R, just two later that the clock shown by Mun CW. The clock is very similar to 4471 R other than the position of ratchet bridge, which has been relocated from the 3 o'clock position to 7 o'clock! The bridge has no groove cut into it.



I wonder if this was an early attempt at relocating the bridge, and then it was realised that there was too little space at 7 o'clock so they moved the bridge on later clocks to 11 o'clock? The pendulum is inscribed with the matching number.

Tim

 

[MUN CHOR-WENG]

Tim,
Yes your clock is among the first to relocate the position of the ratchet bridge from the 3 o'clock positon and is the first documented
to have the ratchet relocated at the 7 o'clock position.
While JUF later produce these round plate clock with the ratchet bridge at the 11 o'clock position, this proved to be not the final position as
finally they made these clocks with the ratchet bridge at the 12 o'clock positon as shown in the pictures below.




Mun C W

 

[GRZESIEK]

[CYTAT="MUN CHOR-WENG, post: 1541752, członek: 91"]
GRZESIEK ,

Zdjęcie okrągłej tylnej płyty, którą zamieściłeś powyżej, wydaje się pochodzić z wczesnego modelu rastrowego lub podestu.
Udokumentowano bardzo niewiele takich modeli i zastanawiam się, czy możesz być na tyle uprzejmy, aby dostarczyć zdjęcia pełnego przedniego i tylnego widoku swojego zegara.

Mun C W
[/CYTAT]
photo

 

[Ken M]

Google translation:
The photo of the round back plate you posted above appears to be from an early raster model or landing.
Very few such models have been documented, and I wonder if you can be kind enough to provide photos of the full front and back view of your clock.

 

[MUN CHOR-WENG]

GRZESIEK,

Thank you for posting pictures of your beautiful JUF bandstand clock.
Your clock is the second JUF bandstand clock that I have documented with a round movement, many such model made later
by JUF have rectangular movement.
The back plate of your clock shows transitional features relating to JUF's effort to improve winding safety.
Many of JUF early clocks, especially those with patent dial, have weak winding system having ratchet wheel with short
shallow gears, less robust ratchet click and a ratchet click spring without a tab to hold it in position during winding especially when the holding screw is loose due to rust. All these features were present in all the early JUF 400-day clock , they include rectangular movement, round movement and 400-day striker movement.
Between 1888 to 1890, JUF made improvements in the winding system in all their clocks by

( 1 ) changing the ratchet wheel of 25 small teeth to one with 20 longer teeth
( 2 ) changing the smaller rachet click to a bigger and more robust one to engage more safely with the ratchet wheel
( 3 ) creating a tab at the end of the ratchet click spring to anchor into a newly created hole in the back plate to allow safe winding without
the risk of getting out of position.

Not all the above features were implemented all at once and we have evidence to show they were implemented in stages.
Your clock shown below, (middle) has the new ratchet wheel with stronger and longer teeth as well as a more robust ratchet click. You can see the difference by comparing to an early JUF clock shown on the left. However the ratchet click spring of your clock has yet to be provided with
a click spring tab at the end and also there was no hole in the back plate to accomodate the tab.
Now looking the the last picture on the right, this clock has all the three improved features incorporated. Note there is a click spring tab that
goes into a hole into back plate.
There was much discussions on this topic on the message board relating to the origin of the tab positioning hole in the rectangular back plate such as Plate 1471 and I have shown conclusively it was created by JUF in connection of their efforts to improve winding safety.
More information on this topic can be found in two articles in the September 2012 and April 2013 issues of The Torsion Times.



Looking at the pictures of your clock I am not sure if the base of the clock comes in one piece or in two separate pieces ?

Mun C W

 

[GRZESIEK]

Looking at the pictures of your clock I am not sure if the base of the clock comes in one piece or in two separate pieces ?
Mun C W

Has an additional basis .
The clock with a standard mechanism is no longer my own property.
Regards

 

[MUN CHOR-WENG]

GRZESIEK,

Thank you for showing pictures of those early early louvre models that have separately base. I believe originally JUF never planned
to have a glass a dome to cover these early model as the brass base never have a groove for the glass dome to sit on. Also, in these clock
the movement were housed in a cannister and protected by a back cover. Probably it was later discovered this arrangement was not satisfactory
as the clock is exposed to wind current, dust, moisture and this probably prompted the maker to provide a separate bigger base that allowed the glass dome to protect the clock. Subsequently in all later models, the orignal small base was expanded to include a groove to hold a glass dome to protect the clock.
I have one such early model without a groove in the base to hold the glass dome ( pictures shown below ). The picture of the round movement of this clock is shown on the right in my last post above. One very similar model was featured as Model 203 in the 1910 JAHRES-UHR Catalogue.

Picture Copyright Mun C W


Mun C W