Hello all,
This is my first NAWCC post and I have questions regarding a Hamilton 4992B I have recently acquired. I'm hoping for some answers here. If this topic has been covered in a past thread I apologize to "my newness".
I am not new to military watch collecting. I have owned, traded, restored and researched dozens of military pocket watches, deck watches and chronometers over several years.
When I came across this last piece more questions than answers come to mind regarding the "first [SUP]Generation" 4992B. I call it the "first generation" 4992B but, as we all know, is that Hamilton used different font styles, sizes of those fonts and font locations on their 4992B as the runs continued through the years. Three changes in total.[/SUP]
[SUP] The 1st generation 4992B plates have an almost exact font style and placement locations as the "1st Type" 992B that was started in 1940. This is evident of the "Hamilton Watch Co. U.S.A" located under the center seconds wheel as well as the "ADJ. TEMP. AND 6 POS" markings located and hidden under the center seconds bridge. The markings "ADJ. TEMP. AND 6 POSITIONS" were re-engraved under the crown wheel. Also, the "4" in the 4992B engraving seems "a little off" meaning it's not exactly the same size and seems slightly not in line with the "992B". Researching also has come up with "complaints" about the "4" stamp not being as deep as the "992B" and the black paint has deteriorated. As the next 4992B generation or font location is introduced these anomalies disappear and there are no hidden or covered engravings. Why was the first generation like this?
Two possible answers come to my mind:
Hamilton was using the 1st type 1940 992B plates in the first production runs of the 4992B
Hamilton was using the same engraving pattern as the 1st type 992B but did not plan ahead or quickly advanced production of the 4992B, due to the war effort, for the extra jewel, center seconds plate wheel needed. They corrected the issue later.
The 1st answer is not plausible to me as the "21 Jewels" marking would exist on the plate not "22 Jewels" as seen from some of the earliest examples still in existence. This similarly happened to the Elgin National Watch Co. during the early production of their 581 Grade examples (A-13's) and is seen with 22 jeweled movements marked "21 Jewels". I have NOT yet seen this with Hamilton.
The 2nd answer would make the most sense to me BUT I am a novice when it comes to plate manufacturing and the engraving process with Hamilton. Does anyone have any ideas?
Through my research with this piece I can only find 9 other documented examples in the same serial number range, plate configuration with the hidden or covered markings as mine. They are:
4C122 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY "in Keystone Base Metal case
.Serial No. 289-41
4C192 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" in Keystone Base Metal case 907480. No case markings
4C224 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" No case movement plate only
4C319 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" in Keystone Base Metal case 1300254.Serial No. 454-41
4C531 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" unknown case information
4C554 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" in Keystone Base Metal case 1300916. Serial No.765-41
4C857 Movement marked "US ARMY AIR CORPS" in Keystone Base Metal 1327411. Serial No AC-42-60
4C989 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" in Keystone Base Metal case 1373050 Serial No. 524-43
4C1244 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" in .800 silver case K045296. Serial No. H-12193
Recently I have acquired 4992B:
4C145 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" in Keystone Base Metal case 1300074. Serial No. 111-41 frame serial number confirmed under crystal bezel is 0074.
Is there anyone with similar examples in this serial number range to compare markings and such?
This means to me that the Hamilton Watch Co was sending out 4992Bs intended for the US NAVY in Base Metal cases before .800 silver cases were issued, correct? Even Serial number 4C1244 from the above list was obviously a re-case after service given the "H-12193" case serial number. As far as I can gather the 1943 contract data request is for 4500 80% silver cases starting with serial number "H" range 001-4500. That means there are at least 12,193 silver cases issued to the US NAVY for 4992B.
I gather that the original BASE METAL issued cases, such as mine, paired with the BU AERO US NAVY movements are quite rare, BUT they gather a low premium compared to the silver cased examples. WHY? Why is everyone so fixated in .800 silver cases and the US NAVY examples, there were others.
Also, I've gathered there were just over 23,000 22 Jewel Navigation Watches manufactured by Hamilton for the US NAVY during wartime. With only over 7700 Aircraft Navigational Watch Boxes produced for the US NAVY Navigational watches. In my opinion there are more silver cased US NAVY examples than original Base Metal cases. Were the Navigational Watch boxes intended for "BASE METAL" watches rather than SILVER to avoid corrosion? When did the manufacture of the Navigational Watch boxes start? With the 4992B in late '41? This raises interesting questions regarding Hamilton and the US Governments intentions regarding the US NAVY Navigation watches.
The 4992B was one of 121 scheduled Finished and Sold to the US Government on 1/2/1942. US/Hamilton contract 64-93420. Only 118 were sold on 1/2/1942
I also understand that these examples were manufactured, damaged, repaired, re-cased, destroyed and just plain lost in time. BUT, all we do have are the examples that still remain. The early examples such as the above 10 have had the most time circulate and be exposed to all those factors.
Please comment and share any information you may have. My research has met a dead end. Thank you for any help you can give. M
[/SUP]
This is my first NAWCC post and I have questions regarding a Hamilton 4992B I have recently acquired. I'm hoping for some answers here. If this topic has been covered in a past thread I apologize to "my newness".
I am not new to military watch collecting. I have owned, traded, restored and researched dozens of military pocket watches, deck watches and chronometers over several years.
When I came across this last piece more questions than answers come to mind regarding the "first [SUP]Generation" 4992B. I call it the "first generation" 4992B but, as we all know, is that Hamilton used different font styles, sizes of those fonts and font locations on their 4992B as the runs continued through the years. Three changes in total.[/SUP]
[SUP] The 1st generation 4992B plates have an almost exact font style and placement locations as the "1st Type" 992B that was started in 1940. This is evident of the "Hamilton Watch Co. U.S.A" located under the center seconds wheel as well as the "ADJ. TEMP. AND 6 POS" markings located and hidden under the center seconds bridge. The markings "ADJ. TEMP. AND 6 POSITIONS" were re-engraved under the crown wheel. Also, the "4" in the 4992B engraving seems "a little off" meaning it's not exactly the same size and seems slightly not in line with the "992B". Researching also has come up with "complaints" about the "4" stamp not being as deep as the "992B" and the black paint has deteriorated. As the next 4992B generation or font location is introduced these anomalies disappear and there are no hidden or covered engravings. Why was the first generation like this?
Two possible answers come to my mind:
Hamilton was using the 1st type 1940 992B plates in the first production runs of the 4992B
Hamilton was using the same engraving pattern as the 1st type 992B but did not plan ahead or quickly advanced production of the 4992B, due to the war effort, for the extra jewel, center seconds plate wheel needed. They corrected the issue later.
The 1st answer is not plausible to me as the "21 Jewels" marking would exist on the plate not "22 Jewels" as seen from some of the earliest examples still in existence. This similarly happened to the Elgin National Watch Co. during the early production of their 581 Grade examples (A-13's) and is seen with 22 jeweled movements marked "21 Jewels". I have NOT yet seen this with Hamilton.
The 2nd answer would make the most sense to me BUT I am a novice when it comes to plate manufacturing and the engraving process with Hamilton. Does anyone have any ideas?
Through my research with this piece I can only find 9 other documented examples in the same serial number range, plate configuration with the hidden or covered markings as mine. They are:
4C122 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY "in Keystone Base Metal case
.Serial No. 289-414C192 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" in Keystone Base Metal case 907480. No case markings
4C224 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" No case movement plate only
4C319 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" in Keystone Base Metal case 1300254.Serial No. 454-41
4C531 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" unknown case information
4C554 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" in Keystone Base Metal case 1300916. Serial No.765-41
4C857 Movement marked "US ARMY AIR CORPS" in Keystone Base Metal 1327411. Serial No AC-42-60
4C989 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" in Keystone Base Metal case 1373050 Serial No. 524-43
4C1244 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" in .800 silver case K045296. Serial No. H-12193
Recently I have acquired 4992B:
4C145 Movement marked "BU AERO US NAVY" in Keystone Base Metal case 1300074. Serial No. 111-41 frame serial number confirmed under crystal bezel is 0074.
Is there anyone with similar examples in this serial number range to compare markings and such?
This means to me that the Hamilton Watch Co was sending out 4992Bs intended for the US NAVY in Base Metal cases before .800 silver cases were issued, correct? Even Serial number 4C1244 from the above list was obviously a re-case after service given the "H-12193" case serial number. As far as I can gather the 1943 contract data request is for 4500 80% silver cases starting with serial number "H" range 001-4500. That means there are at least 12,193 silver cases issued to the US NAVY for 4992B.
I gather that the original BASE METAL issued cases, such as mine, paired with the BU AERO US NAVY movements are quite rare, BUT they gather a low premium compared to the silver cased examples. WHY? Why is everyone so fixated in .800 silver cases and the US NAVY examples, there were others.
Also, I've gathered there were just over 23,000 22 Jewel Navigation Watches manufactured by Hamilton for the US NAVY during wartime. With only over 7700 Aircraft Navigational Watch Boxes produced for the US NAVY Navigational watches. In my opinion there are more silver cased US NAVY examples than original Base Metal cases. Were the Navigational Watch boxes intended for "BASE METAL" watches rather than SILVER to avoid corrosion? When did the manufacture of the Navigational Watch boxes start? With the 4992B in late '41? This raises interesting questions regarding Hamilton and the US Governments intentions regarding the US NAVY Navigation watches.
The 4992B was one of 121 scheduled Finished and Sold to the US Government on 1/2/1942. US/Hamilton contract 64-93420. Only 118 were sold on 1/2/1942
I also understand that these examples were manufactured, damaged, repaired, re-cased, destroyed and just plain lost in time. BUT, all we do have are the examples that still remain. The early examples such as the above 10 have had the most time circulate and be exposed to all those factors.
Please comment and share any information you may have. My research has met a dead end. Thank you for any help you can give. M
[/SUP]
