Early American Watch Maker, Oliver Gerrish

[Keith R...]

This 18 size coin silver watch came out of an estate in Maine. I would
like to thank my friends Ray, (Omexa) and PL (who else could be PL),
provided me with their findings on Oliver Gerrish described below. I took
my initial photos and gave the watch one full wind counter clock wise and
it's running unabated with a true balance, without wobble. The seller did
not have a key, so it was sold for repairs. Here below, is a compilation
write up by PL, verified with mine and Ray's research. So thanks to these
two awesome horologist for their tutelage.

Oliver Gerrish

Born: 4 Jan 1796, Portsmouth NH
Married: Sarah Little on 6 Jan 1825 in Portland ME
Died: 3 Dec 1888, Portland ME


Silversmith and Jeweler Apprenticed in 1810 to John
Gaines in Portsmouth NH


He worked from 1817 to 1819 as a goldsmith and jeweler
in Boston MA as a journeyman for various firms.


Portland ME, 1818-1888: president of Portland Savings
Bank, Secretary and Treasurer of Relief Fire Society,
a prominent Mason, and active in a large number of
charitable and philanthropic organizations.


He worked from 1819 to 1857 as a silversmith, jeweler,
and watchmaker in Portland ME taking the stand formerly
occupied by Joshua Tolford at 6 Jones Row, Exchange Street.


Master to Abner Lowell c 1825 in Portland ME


Master to William Senter abt 1828 in Portland ME


Watch paper, c 1833
American Antiquarian Society


Master to Nathaniel Pearson abt 1840 in Portland ME


He appeared on the 1850 census taken at Portland ME,
listed as a jeweler.


He was partner from 1858 to 1877 with Nathaniel Pearson in
Portland ME as GERRISH & PEARSON with shop at 74 Exchange
Street.


Abner Lowell was a partner from 1837 to 1869 with William
Senter in Portsmouth NH as LOWELL & SENTER, with a shop at
64 Exchange Street.

This is clearly a Liverpool product, the end stone screws are something
Oliver and I have not been familiar with. The watch reminds me of one
by our own John Pavlik "Made by Morris Tobias", although the plates
are slightly different. The case hallmarks are Chester 1850 and both case
and movement carry sn# 9030.

Edit case maker by seller originaly identified as Robert Stebbings of
New Castle. But the seller had the date of this watch much earlier
than 1850. It still maybe Stebbings, feedback on case maker would
be appreciated, as well as the watch. Keith

View attachment 301486 View attachment 301489

 

[Omexa]

Hi Keith, "Cherrish sic your Gerrish". Regards Ray

 

[Keith R...]

Ray, thank you kind sir.

I wanted to do this write up while I was not distracted, as Tom McIntyre has a
watch coming out that is on my bucket list, which the very nature of this find
might have distracted me from a decent write up. So now, I can watch for Tom's
Early American Colonial Find, with my undivided attention.

Note, this watch has to go to Graham for service. Thanks again Ray!!!

Keith


Edit for PL: Sorry PL, I thought I fixed that. So noted, my oops.

 

[PapaLouies]

Hi Keith,

Another great find. The shape of the Pawl on the set-up may be a clue to the maker.

My error, LOWELL & SENTER were in Portland ME, not Portsmouth NH.

Regards,

PL

 

[Keith R...]

^PL, sent me the correct for Portland ME regarding the write up, I thought I
fixed it. The good news is, I can go back in to the doc file and fix it. Thanks
for all your expertise PL. So LOWELL & SENTER Portland Maine.

And THANKS ALSO TO, Graham, Oliver & Ray!!!

PL, I'll start going through my movement pic files, for the Pawl clue as to the
Liverpool maker.

Keith

The write up Correction Oliver Gerrish

Born: 4 Jan 1796, Portsmouth ME
Married: Sarah Little on 6 Jan 1825 in Portland ME
Died: 3 Dec 1888, Portland ME


Silversmith and Jeweler Apprenticed in 1810 to John
Gaines in Portsmouth ME

He worked from 1817 to 1819 as a goldsmith and jeweler
in Boston MA as a journeyman for various firms.


Portland ME, 1818-1888: president of Portland Savings
Bank, Secretary and Treasurer of Relief Fire Society,
a prominent Mason, and active in a large number of
charitable and philanthropic organizations.


He worked from 1819 to 1857 as a silversmith, jeweler,
and watchmaker in Portland ME taking the stand formerly
occupied by Joshua Tolford at 6 Jones Row, Exchange Street.


Master to Abner Lowell c 1825 in Portland ME


Master to William Senter abt 1828 in Portland ME


Watch paper, c 1833
American Antiquarian Society


Master to Nathaniel Pearson abt 1840 in Portland ME


He appeared on the 1850 census taken at Portland ME,
listed as a jeweler.


He was partner from 1858 to 1877 with Nathaniel Pearson in
Portland ME as GERRISH & PEARSON with shop at 74 Exchange
Street.


Abner Lowell was a partner from 1837 to 1869 with William
Senter in Portland ME as LOWELL & SENTER, with a shop at
64 Exchange Street.

Too many PORTS, Haha.

 

[PapaLouies]

Hi Keith,

I think it was Oliver who commented on the Pawl regarding a Josh Johnson watch.

Regards,

PL

 

[Keith R...]

Yes PL, Oliver did make this connection. However, we have not observed the end stone screws
in that configuration as shown on the Gerrish watch, on true Josh Johnson movements yet. The
other question of course Oliver raised, did Joseph Johnson export private label movements to
America, absent the Johnson name for a US watchmaker to finish and sign?

Keith

 

[PapaLouies]

Hi Keith,

The applied silver index scale looks to be in an awkward position, covering part of a jewel bezel and a couple of bezel screw.
I wonder if under it there is an engraved scale in the plate.

Yes, the cap jewel screws are quite an anomaly.

Regards,

PL

 

[Keith R...]

Very good point PL, perhaps when Graham services the watch he can realign
the scale, or determine there's an old scale engraved underneath and the scale
shown, is an add on of a later period. Keith

Probability high there's a shorter arc scale engraved underneath. But then I would
not want empty screw holes would I? See the regulator scale above the Jewels.

 

[gmorse]

Hi PL,

I agree, that silver scale doesn't sit very comfortably, and it's unusual to see an applied scale like that with the crow's feet instead of plain lines. However, it is concentric with the balance, so it couldn't be moved without looking worse.

That barrel click with the double tooth is often seen on Liverpool movements, and the small "tail" makes it easier to manipulate them.

I've seen triple screws on the endstone setting before, but only equally spaced, never like this. (They were a characteristic of Alexander Cummings back in the late 18th century).

Regards,

Graham

 

[Keith R...]

Thanks Graham. However if you were to remove the scale and slot the screw holes on both ends,
it might could be realigned, right? Also, when first removing it, perhaps get a pic of the original
engraved scale, to aid in identifying the Liverpool maker, is this also possible? Then you could
button back up with the silver scale aligned maybe.

Note, which would turn it into an open slot on one end, no more metal that would be left.

Keith

 

[gmorse]

Hi Keith,

If the scale was moved either closer to or further away, its radius of curvature would be wrong; it was made to go in that position! Anyway, it is what it is, and we'll just have to wait and see what, if anything, is underneath it.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Pavlik]

I would think the case mark is for Ralph Samuel with the letter date m Chester 1850 .. Also the rounded cut barrel bridge occurred on some English movements about this time... I have a Lowel & Senter marked watch, no it's not he Morris Tobias Savage 2 pin, from 1947.. Same RS in an oval but a London letter date. Same style font... Check London 1847 m vs Chester 1850 m..

 

[Keith R...]

Thanks Graham, on a positive note, I'll have the first Liverpool watch with a bridge over a Liverpool
window.

I understand, BTW, the old watch is still running after 3 hours on one 360 wind. I'm tickled with it.

Keith

Edit, I just now saw John Pavlik's post. I will update the doc file. Thanks John!!

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

Yes, I agree that Ralph Samuel at 54 Wood Street, Liverpool, is more likely, although he is listed in Priestley's "Reasonable Attributions" list for Chester. Chester seems to be the least complete of all the lists.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Keith R...]

Perhaps the doc file is at 95%, (the other 5% will come when we find the Liverpool maker of this
movement). Thanks to all for the contributions.
Oliver Gerrish, sn#9030 ca 1850:


Born: 4 Jan 1796, Portsmouth ME
Married: Sarah Little on 6 Jan 1825 in Portland ME
Died: 3 Dec 1888, Portland ME


Silversmith and Jeweler Apprenticed in 1810 to John
Gaines in Portsmouth NH


He worked from 1817 to 1819 as a goldsmith and jeweler
in Boston MA as a journeyman for various firms.


Portland ME, 1818-1888: president of Portland Savings
Bank, Secretary and Treasurer of Relief Fire Society,
a prominent Mason, and active in a large number of
charitable and philanthropic organizations.


He worked from 1819 to 1857 as a silversmith, jeweler,
and watchmaker in Portland ME taking the stand formerly
occupied by Joshua Tolford at 6 Jones Row, Exchange Street.


Master to Abner Lowell c 1825 in Portland ME


Master to William Senter abt 1828 in Portland ME


Watch paper, c 1833
American Antiquarian Society


Master to Nathaniel Pearson abt 1840 in Portland ME


He appeared on the 1850 census taken at Portland ME,
listed as a jeweler.


He was partner from 1858 to 1877 with Nathaniel Pearson in
Portland ME as GERRISH & PEARSON with shop at 74 Exchange
Street.


Abner Lowell was a partner from 1837 to 1869 with William
Senter in Portland ME as LOWELL & SENTER, with a shop at
64 Exchange Street.


Case maker SN# 9030 Oliver Gerrish, Ralph Samuel, 54 Wood
Street, Liverpool England, little m for 1850 Chester, (John
Pavlik, substantiated by Graham Morse).


Research Participants: PL, John Pavlik, Oliver Mundy, Omexa,
Graham Morse, Keith Richmond.

Keith

 

[Keith R...]

You guys are aware, that if we can pin this movement down to the widow Mary Johnson, I'll
master the art of walking on the ceiling.

Keith

 

[Keith R...]

I received an email from Rich Newman with a watch out of New Hampshire, same maker
as this watch, same regulator index, same case maker and hallmarked 1853. So the regulator
index comes with the watch, no need to peek under it Graham. Thanks Rich.

Keith

 

[Keith R...]

I'd like you guys to take a look at my side by side and tell me what you think.
The first watch is my MI Tobias from 1864, second watch is the latest Gerrish
watch 1850. Note plate layouts, the click, the regulator index. What are the
possibilities the Gerrish watch, as well as the one Rich Newman sent me, which
is a duplicate to my 9030 except for retailer, are private label MI Tobias watches?

I'm 99% positive the Gerrish watch is a private label MI Tobias. Keith

View attachment 301575

 

[PapaLouies]

Hi Keith,

The photo of #42722 was taken with the watch running, so we can not compare the balance wheels.

The dial of #9030 has a large diameter seconds chapter and is without a second sink. This indicates it was likely made a good deal earlier than 1850. I've never seen a dial with a large roman number VI inside the second chapter.

Regards,

PL

 

[gmorse]

Hi Keith,

I'm reluctant to go as far as 99%. I do think that these two movements could very well have originated as frames in the same workshop in the Prescot area, as the basic design, "Liverpool Runner" layout and shape of the barrel bar are so similar. The differences in detail are down to the individual finishers and jewellers. For instance, the barrel clicks, the cap stud positions, and the placements of the screws holding some of the jewel settings are all different; on the Gerrish, the lever and the escape wheel settings share a screw, whereas on the Tobias they don't.

I'm afraid that whether the watch was finished in a Tobias workshop or a Gerrish one is still open to question in my opinion. Would Gerrish have been dealing with Tobias or directly with the frame maker? Even if the pillar plates turn out to have the same stamps, we still won't know the answer to this one without corroborating documentary evidence.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Pavlik]

Graham is correct on all points.. The last point being the difference in serial numbers.. If it were to be a "private" label taken from a series, why give it a different number??. I feel we may be trying to fit what we know about the American private lable practice into the English trade. One of The main differences is the way watch movements were manufactured and sold during the 2 eras..

 

[Keith R...]

Thanks guys, I think I was/am leaning toward an imported watch, since it's in an English hallmarked case,
as opposed to an American watch maker that assembles English ordered materials and completes a watch,
then cases it. Gerrish although a watch maker, also was a jeweler. Good answers guys, thanks for your
expertise.

Keith

 

[PapaLouies]

Keith's Oliver Gerrish Case and Movement are marked 9030 and the case is dated Chester 1850 with the case maker Ralph Samuel registered at London, Birmingham and Chester.

John's Lowell & Senter Case and Movement are marked 5850 and the case is dated London 1847 with the case marked Ralph Samuel registered at London, Birmingham and Chester.

This I find interesting:
Oliver Gerrish, with shop at 6 Jones Row, Exchange Street 1819-1857.
Lowell & Senter, with shop at 64 Exchange Street 1837-1869.

The balance cocks of both watches are signed PATENT and both have stop works. The letter style of OLIVER GERRISH and LOWELL & SENTER on the movements together with the ME" on the barrel bar could have been engraved by the same craftsman.

Are the escapements of the watches roller table or Massey?

Regards,

PL

 

[John Pavlik]

PL, Lowell & Senter #5850 has a Massey III roller table..

 

[Keith R...]

PL, I shall assume the same as John Pavlik, but when Graham get's my next set of watches, he can
confirm. Keith

PS, I did respond to PL on the dial. If you ask me, the style of the dial pre-dates the
watch by about 25 years.

Note, Rich Newman sent me a Hovey watch out of New Hampshire. Ray has one also,
maybe we can get him to post his Hovey. I think Ray's watch comes also from the same
frame maker. K...

 

[John Pavlik]

Keith, if your refering to the dial on the Gerrich watch, I disagree.. The individual markings between the minutes is a feature I have not seen prior to approx 1850...

 

[John Pavlik]

Last point, with a compensated balance, I feel that this watch has a table roller with lever... Not a Massey III ... Inspection will confirm ....

 

[Keith R...]

Thanks John, I just don't recall seeing a seconds bit ring so large. I believe this
may be my only Split compensated English watch in the collection besides my
Frodsham's and the Tobias, to date. Graham can advise on escapement upon
inspection.

PS, I have conceded to Grahams position, the closest I can get to Tobias, is the
frame maker.

I do believe the key to finding the ID of maker, will be the configuration of the
cock jewel screws, as on #9030.


Keith

 

[Omexa]

Hi, I am not exactly sure where this came from but I will post it. Regards Ray

 

[gmorse]

Hi Ray,

Anything under the dial, and is it an English lever or a Massey?

Regards,

Graham

 

[Omexa]

I don't know Graham, I just have the photo unfortunately. Regards Ray

 

[Omexa]

Hi Graham, this is one that I do have with an interesting history. https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php...-American-Watchmaking-History&highlight=segee Regards Ray

 

[PapaLouies]

Hi Ray,

I think your Hovey & Co. is the closest to Keith's Gerrish I've seen.
It would not surprise me if the frames were made by the same maker.

Regards,

PL

 

[PapaLouies]

This 18 size coin silver watch came out of an estate in Maine. I would
like to thank my friends Ray, (Omexa) and PL (who else could be PL),
provided me with their findings on Oliver Gerrish described below. I took
my initial photos and gave the watch one full wind counter clock wise and
it's running unabated with a true balance, without wobble. The seller did
not have a key, so it was sold for repairs. Here below, is a compilation
write up by PL, verified with mine and Ray's research. So thanks to these
two awesome horologist for their tutelage.

Oliver Gerrish

Born: 4 Jan 1796, Portsmouth NH
Married: Sarah Little on 6 Jan 1825 in Portland ME
Died: 3 Dec 1888, Portland ME


Silversmith and Jeweler Apprenticed in 1810 to John
Gaines in Portsmouth NH


He worked from 1817 to 1819 as a goldsmith and jeweler
in Boston MA as a journeyman for various firms.


Portland ME, 1818-1888: president of Portland Savings
Bank, Secretary and Treasurer of Relief Fire Society,
a prominent Mason, and active in a large number of
charitable and philanthropic organizations.


He worked from 1819 to 1857 as a silversmith, jeweler,
and watchmaker in Portland ME taking the stand formerly
occupied by Joshua Tolford at 6 Jones Row, Exchange Street.


Master to Abner Lowell c 1825 in Portland ME


Master to William Senter abt 1828 in Portland ME


Watch paper, c 1833
American Antiquarian Society


Master to Nathaniel Pearson abt 1840 in Portland ME


He appeared on the 1850 census taken at Portland ME,
listed as a jeweler.


He was partner from 1858 to 1877 with Nathaniel Pearson in
Portland ME as GERRISH & PEARSON with shop at 74 Exchange
Street.


Abner Lowell was a partner from 1837 to 1869 with William
Senter in Portsmouth NH as LOWELL & SENTER, with a shop at
64 Exchange Street.

This is clearly a Liverpool product, the end stone screws are something
Oliver and I have not been familiar with. The watch reminds me of one
by our own John Pavlik "Made by Morris Tobias", although the plates
are slightly different. The case hallmarks are Chester 1850 and both case
and movement carry sn# 9030.

Edit case maker by seller originaly identified as Robert Stebbings of
New Castle. But the seller had the date of this watch much earlier
than 1850. It still maybe Stebbings, feedback on case maker would
be appreciated, as well as the watch. Keith

View attachment 301484 View attachment 301485 View attachment 301486 View attachment 301487 View attachment 301488 View attachment 301489 View attachment 301499

I came across these Regards, PL

 

[Keith R...]

I think my guy imported English watches already finished. This is one of them at 17J
and his name is on the movement. Now he could have done minor finishing. It's in a
Ralph Samuels English case. Thanks for the paper trail PL.

One can see the movement in post #19. This watch is 55MM, so a tad bigger than
most of my English watches. Hallmarks are for 1850.

Ray, you can find a 21 jewel Hovey on Rich Newman's site.

Keith R...