Earliest Numbered American Watch Co.

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by John Pavlik, Oct 19, 2019.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 30, 2001
    2,100
    153
    63
    Male
    Green Bay, Wi
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    What is your earliest American Watch Co Mdl 57 ? An example, while not high grade, #2066 is my earliest... What have you ?

    0AAA1149-696D-46F9-BC75-F127FA77E281.jpeg 9ED96CC9-971B-4725-92DA-6BAEE3ABC516.jpeg 3F8BC840-350C-4FD7-A123-51C33972C38B.jpeg
     
  2. miguel angel cladera

    miguel angel cladera Registered User

    Jul 29, 2019
    63
    73
    18
    Male
    Country Flag:
    So nice watch John!! Thank you for sharing
     
  3. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

    Oct 18, 2001
    2,356
    110
    63
    Country Flag:
    Beautiful, right down to the seconds hand.-Cort
     
    musicguy likes this.
  4. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

    Dec 12, 2010
    1,717
    493
    83
    Sosnowiec, Poland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Samuel Curtis No 549.

    Replacement case, but a nice, complete movement.

    6BBF1B0B-27CF-4C80-B9D5-9B33D4246849.jpeg

    6123441A-3AF3-4D01-9EDE-A996F4B9858C.jpeg

    :)
     
  5. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    5,385
    1,721
    113
    Male
    Retired Sr. Proj. mgr,
    South
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Mine from 1863........11J model 57.

    Great watches guys.

    Keith R...

    100_1454 (800x600).jpg 100_1442 (800x600) - Copy.jpg 100_1436 (800x600).jpg
     
    GeneJockey, pmwas and viclip like this.
  6. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,495
    421
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The answer depends in part on what one considers a “Model 1857.” My understanding is that the Samuel Curtis watches had a different train layout and for this reason, some knowledgeable friends argue they should not really be considered “Model 57s.” By this reasoning, the first Model 1857 was therefore Dennison, Howard & Davis SN 1,001. I can post some pix of my early examples tomorrow.
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  7. Gregory

    Gregory Registered User

    Dec 29, 2012
    95
    47
    18
    Hampton, GA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    My 1857 11j was made around 1871.

    c6oZBwV.jpg

    3qCZICw.jpg

    myK95mY.jpg

    IrkzR1u.jpg
     
  8. Rick Hufnagel

    Rick Hufnagel Just Rick!
    NAWCC Member Donor Sponsor

    Oct 25, 2018
    1,013
    1,211
    113
    Male
    Plumber
    Pittsburgh pa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    My earliest.. and only...
    Waltham watch co grade
    Sn 388725. Late 1868

    I'm sure it's not close to what you all will show, but can't pass up an opportunity to slide a private label in!

    c3fe9a11e55e10ce19ba010ce52236d2.jpg 826e9481410f460ae5242b8c243727fe.jpg
     
  9. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 30, 2001
    2,100
    153
    63
    Male
    Green Bay, Wi
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Looking forward to your examples Clint, and include any that you consider Mdl 57’s .... We may get some opinions on the reasons for the difference of opinion on Mdl 57 vs the early Curtis’s ... That would be welcome ....
     
  10. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 25, 2000
    5,966
    816
    113
    Geologist - California Geological Survey
    Los Angeles, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    My 7-jewel Wm.Ellery, from April 1863 (ser.#74011), is very close to Keith's Bartlett (post #5). Mine has an unsigned dial.
    WmEllery57.jpg

    (I have an earlier American Watch Co. watch, but it is not a '57 model)
     
  11. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

    Dec 12, 2010
    1,717
    493
    83
    Sosnowiec, Poland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    In fact, I did expect such response - yes, there are some design differences between Curtis and DHD movements. Not major differences as DHD is just a somewhat modified Curtis movement, but still Curtis is not a Waltham model 1857 sensu stricto ;)
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  12. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
    NAWCC Gold Member

    Jan 8, 2006
    1,766
    530
    113
    Pasadena
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I once owned an 18k P&B-cased Model 1857 Appleton Tracy. It was one of my earliest purchases. I no longer recall why I sold it, but it was one of the few instances when I made any money when selling a watch. I had bought the watch for $636 in 2005, spent $53 on repairs, and sold it in 2008 for $1691.22. It was #459,347, not especially early. It was the only Model 1857 that I have ever owned. My earliest Waltham, which I still own, is an 18k Model 1860 Appleton Tracy "Vibrator", #140,111.

    a.jpg b.jpg c.jpg d.jpg
     
  13. johnbscott

    johnbscott Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    343
    165
    43
    Male
    Country Flag:
    My 64606. The watch runs very well and keeps good time.

    Walt 18s 64606 dial.jpeg Walt 18s 64606 movt.jpeg
     
  14. Nick23

    Nick23 Registered User

    Jul 21, 2009
    441
    186
    43
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    My earliest Model 1857 is an Appleton Tracy, S/N 16552, circa April, 1859.

    DSCF0438.JPG
     
  15. Nick23

    Nick23 Registered User

    Jul 21, 2009
    441
    186
    43
    Male
    England
    Country Flag:
    This is another Appleton Tracy that I have. Slightly later, S/N 133038(c.1864) in a hunter case.

    DSCF0093 (2).JPG DSCF0088 (2).JPG DSCF0091 (2).JPG
     
  16. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,495
    421
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here is my current earliest example. I especially like the serpentine Arabic numeral dial, which was unusual on American watches in this period.

    M57 Arabic Dial - reduced.jpg M57 AT&Co SN 6,257 - reduced.jpg
     
  17. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,495
    421
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here is DH&D SN 3,300, which I let go to a friend a few years ago. It is currently on display at the NAWCC Museum as part of a display of Civil War and pre-Civil War American watches. Silver BWCo cases are scarce, but gold BWCo cases made in the Boston Watch Company's own case department are quite rare. In 35 years of collecting, I might have seen two of them.

    My other three Model 1857s were all presented to Civil War combatants - a sergeant, a major, and a brigadier general. They are all in Columbia right now too.

    Howard Case Back SM.JPG Howard Case Front SM.JPG Howard Case Symbols.JPG Howard Dial SM.JPG Howard Mvt SM.JPG
     
  18. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 30, 2001
    2,100
    153
    63
    Male
    Green Bay, Wi
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Clint, I’m on your side, really like the Arabic Appleton Dial... Do not believe I have seen one of those before, sunk seconds bit to boot.... The others that have providence is also something very desirable .....
     
    Clint Geller and Keith R... like this.
  19. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    5,385
    1,721
    113
    Male
    Retired Sr. Proj. mgr,
    South
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Confirming Jerry T's dial from his movement in post #10, I believe most Ellery grades
    were paired with the unsigned dials until 1865. One could have ordered a signed dial
    from their jeweler I suppose.

    Here's my Fall 1864 11J model 57, with it's original unsigned dial.

    Awesome gold examples, Clint & Ethan!!

    Keith R...

    100_1810 (800x600).jpg 100_1838 (800x600).jpg
     
  20. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,159
    736
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I love very early Model 1857 Waltham's. I have saved some from the pre-civil war period and have a very early one I will post later when I can get to it.

    This one was made in March of 1858 and the handwritten ledgers say 4 holes 8801-8900 run.

    This one has a plain dial and is in an Lion hallmarked case?

    DSCN0048.JPG DSCN0045.JPG DSCN0046.JPG DSCN0044.JPG
     
  21. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,495
    421
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I forgot to mention that this watch is on exhibit in Columbia too right now.
     
  22. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,159
    736
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Some references from Ron Price book

    3rd chart shows BPH on the different models and we can see that the Samuel Curtis was different from the D.H. D Model 57

    DSCN0068.JPG DSCN0069.JPG DSCN0070.JPG
     
    Keith R..., Clint Geller and pmwas like this.
  23. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,159
    736
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Early number Bartlett 17349 and has a decorated cock with stripes

    DSCN0049.JPG DSCN0051.JPG
     
    Keith R..., Bostonjoe, viclip and 3 others like this.
  24. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,159
    736
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Serial No. 16772 This is a few hundred numbers away and a different balance cock

    DSCN0053.JPG DSCN0054.JPG DSCN0055.JPG
     
    Bostonjoe, Keith R..., viclip and 2 others like this.
  25. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,159
    736
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Bostonjoe, Keith R..., viclip and 3 others like this.
  26. Tim Fitzgerald

    Tim Fitzgerald Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 2, 2016
    622
    285
    63
    Male
    Artist
    Oak island North Carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #26 Tim Fitzgerald, Oct 23, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
    Here is my P.S Bartlett 1857 ser# 404055 11j completely original ( I belive ?) including it's Waltham original coin silver case. made 1869

    20191015_144444_800x600.jpg 20191015_144549_800x600.jpg 20191015_144509_800x600.jpg
     
  27. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

    Dec 12, 2010
    1,717
    493
    83
    Sosnowiec, Poland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Funny, I did not notice it’s 14400 bph (I assumed it’s coarse train, but yes, it sounds slow :))

    Notice that different rate and - thus - different gear ratios do not necessarily affect the model, an Illinois model 2 can be 16200 or 18000 bph and they have different ratios as well.

    Within the model 1857 there are also coarse and quick train versions, with different gear ratios.

    There are some more differences between Curtis and DH&D, begining with top plate size, for example. I have disassembled photos of the Curtis and whenever I lay my hands od a DH&D I will be happy to compare. Still, the ‚model 1857’ is a wide variery of different movements, the late ones very different from the early ones, and there had already been a lot of talking what is and what isn’t a „model 1857”. I think when we’re talking about model 1857, it’s exactly where Curtis belongs, despite the controversy.
     
  28. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 2, 2012
    1,435
    459
    83
    Male
    Scientist
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Man, all these early, undersprung, solid balance, 'Liverpool Window' Walthams in one place? WOW! Keep 'em coming boys!
     
    Keith R..., Rick Hufnagel and pmwas like this.
  29. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,159
    736
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    This is a very early Bartlett Serial No. 3314 it has a sexy Balance bridge also.

    DSCN0061.JPG DSCN0062.JPG DSCN0063.JPG


    I have an very early one I will post later, maybe the earliest one yet?
     
  30. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,159
    736
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Keith R... likes this.
  31. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

    Dec 12, 2010
    1,717
    493
    83
    Sosnowiec, Poland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Now a ‚true’ model 1857 - 1865 Bartlett.

    Not very early, but has a wonderful case...

    2974201F-B505-4F90-9520-794545AC7632.jpeg

    5FA74D61-E59B-40A3-8E5B-6483EF8D8108.jpeg

    71A0AA0D-AAE3-4D47-ADF8-D33A068512C1.jpeg
     
  32. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 30, 2001
    2,100
    153
    63
    Male
    Green Bay, Wi
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Some very nice balance cock engravings... Jim, and I thought you were just a Hamilton guy !! Very nice 57’s ....
     
  33. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

    Dec 12, 2010
    1,717
    493
    83
    Sosnowiec, Poland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #33 pmwas, Oct 23, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
    Also, I’ve found a great site showing the evolutuion of early movements:

    Origins of the Waltham Model 57 - evolution

    As you can see, early DH&D movements have some ‚Roxbury’ features in the gear train, so it’s not that easy, that Curtis No 549 is not model 57, while the DH&D 1001 is a true model 57. Interestingly, the design was already evolving in the Roxbury period.

    In a nutshell - Curtis gear train has a typically European arrangement (typical for both English and continental full plate watches), where the 3rd wheel is pretty much level with the dial plate surface.
     
    Tim Fitzgerald and Keith R... like this.
  34. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,495
    421
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The “Model 1857,” which is strictly speaking a misnomer to begin with, if applied to watches made before 1857, evolved continuously. However, the differences between the Curtis and DH&D movements are sufficiently fundamental to persuade many to consider the Curtis a pre-1857 Model design. I have no adamant stance on that question. I merely wished to point out in my earlier post that what was the “first” Model 1857 may not be a well defined question.
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  35. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

    Dec 12, 2010
    1,717
    493
    83
    Sosnowiec, Poland
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Of course, just digging some more details ;)
     
    Clint Geller likes this.
  36. Tim Fitzgerald

    Tim Fitzgerald Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 2, 2016
    622
    285
    63
    Male
    Artist
    Oak island North Carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks , great information!!
     
  37. Tim Fitzgerald

    Tim Fitzgerald Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 2, 2016
    622
    285
    63
    Male
    Artist
    Oak island North Carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Jim, The balance cock looks like a very old tie hanging in my closet :)
     
  38. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,159
    736
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    This is the earliest one I have in my early Waltham collection. I have 25 of these under 100,000 and about 10 between 100,000 -150,000.

    Back in the late 1980's and early 1990's these were purchased for less than $100 and most of the sellers didn't know what numbers were considered Civil War watches :D:eek:

    Serial number 1483 by Dennision, Howard & Davis in Waltham, Mass. 15 Jewels with a ornate decorated Balance cock

    The case is black with 100 + years of patina and I don't have the heart to polish it and waste all that history.

    DSCN0067.JPG DSCN0064.JPG DSCN0065.JPG DSCN0066.JPG
     
    Bostonjoe, musicguy, pmwas and 2 others like this.
  39. johnbscott

    johnbscott Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    343
    165
    43
    Male
    Country Flag:
    I do not remember seeing a specific serial number range that is considered Civil War and I would be interested to know.
     
  40. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,159
    736
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If you have a copy of the Hand-Written serial numbers Civil War period from April 1861 to April 1965 would range from 42000-145000
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  41. johnbscott

    johnbscott Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    343
    165
    43
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Jim, thank you very much!
     
  42. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    5,385
    1,721
    113
    Male
    Retired Sr. Proj. mgr,
    South
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I have 2 of the grades for the Fall of 1864. This example GF Jas Boss.

    Ellery 136,xxx = Nov 1864
    AT&Co 98,514 = Nov 1864

    Keith R...

    103_8188 (800x600).jpg 103_8346 (800x600).jpg
     
  43. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,495
    421
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #43 Clint Geller, Oct 24, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
    Although some movements in that serial number range were finished later than 4/65. For instance, 16 Size American Watch Company Grade movement SN 125,500 was finished in July, 1866. From memory, the last battle of the Civil War ended on May 13, 1865, at Palmito Ranch near Brownsville, Texas. But I imagine it would have taken at least a month, and very likely a good deal longer, for an uncased Waltham movement to have found its way into a case and a combatant’s pocket in Texas. So that gets to the question of what exactly one means by a “Civil War watch.” I explore various commonly used definitions in my new book.
     
    pmwas and Keith R... like this.
  44. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,495
    421
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here is Samuel Curtis SN 375, possibly the only Curtis example known with a Geneva stopwork. The original silver English case has a London datemark for 1853 and the maker's mark "IM" for James Hammon, whose name has turned up on several Curtis cases. Woops, Sorry, I thought I was responding to the Earliest 57 model thread. I'll ask the mods to move this.

    Barrel Top.jpg Curtis S# 375 Hall Marks cropped.JPG DC.JPG FRONT.JPG H2.JPG MVMNT.jpg Top Plate.jpg
     
  45. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,159
    736
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Clint,
    Any Google search will tell you that Ft. Sumter was fired on April 12th 1861, prompting Lincoln to declare war on April 15th 1961. Lee surrendered to Grant at Appomattox on April 9th 1965.


    These are the official dates of the Civil War. Are there exceptions, yes, there are always exceptions, however we have to establish an official date for things.

    It is just like some people trying to justify original watches with single sunk dials as factory watches when the Factory says that they were not, hoping for some obscure memo will show up that will make their unoriginal watch be an exception.....

    So if you pull out and show a watch with serial numbers after the established official dates, you will have to justify it by accounts of obscure battles that happened after the war was over.

    Personally, I don't want to have to do that, so I will stick to my serial numbers that fall within the official dates of the war...
     
  46. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,495
    421
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #46 Clint Geller, Oct 24, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
    Here's a Google search or two for you, Jim:

    "On January 9, 1861, weeks after South Carolina declared that it had seceded from the United States, but before other states had done so to form the Confederacy, Star of the West arrived at Charleston Harbor to resupply Major Robert Anderson's garrison at Fort Sumter. The ship was fired upon by cadets from the Citadel Academy and was hit three times by what were effectively the first shots of the American Civil War.[4][5] Although Star of the West suffered no major damage, her captain, John McGowan, considered it to be too dangerous to continue and turned about to leave the harbor. The mission was abandoned, and Star of the West headed for her home port of New York Harbor."

    and,

    "The Army of Northern Virginia surrendered on April 9 around noon followed by General St. John Richardson Liddell's troops some six hours later.[2] Mosby's Raiders disbanded on April 21, General Joseph E. Johnston and his various armies surrendered on April 26, the Confederate departments of Alabama, Mississippi and East Louisiana surrendered on May 4, and the Confederate District of the Gulf, commanded by Major General Dabney Herndon Maury, surrendered on May 5.[3] Confederate President Jefferson Davis held his last cabinet meeting on May 5 and his government dissolved. He was captured on May 10, along with the Confederate Departments of Florida and South Georgia, commanded by Confederate Major General Samuel Jones.[4] Also on May 10, United States President Andrew Johnson declared the rebellion's armed resistance virtually ended .[5] Thompson's Brigade surrendered on May 11, Confederate forces of North Georgia surrendered on May 12, and Kirby Smith surrendered on May 26 (officially signed June 2).[6] The last battle of the American Civil War was the Battle of Palmito Ranch in Texas on May 12 and 13. The last significant Confederate active force to surrender was the Confederate allied Cherokee Brigadier General Stand Watie and his Indian soldiers on June 23. The last Confederate surrender occurred on November 6, 1865, when the Confederate warship CSS Shenandoah surrendered at Liverpool, England.[7] President Johnson formally declared the end of the war on August 20, 1866."

    So the "official" end of the war, to the extent that that date matters here, was actually August 20, 1866! More to the point, there were still Confederate armies in the field after Lee surrendered to Grant. In my book, I state that my primary concern was whether a watch might have been carried in battle by a Civil War combatant. That's why I took the effective date of the end of the war, for that purpose, as the date of the last battle, on May 13, 1865, while stating that other dates are cited for other reasons. And personally, I am much more concerned about culling out movements that are supposedly "in the range" but were not finished before 5/13/65, than the reverse. I also assume that any watch made before the war began was potentially available for service during the war, so the exact start date of the war is immaterial from that particular viewpoint.

    Oh, and by the way, Lincoln never "declared war." On April 15, 1861, he called for 75,000 troops for three months service to defend the Union against a rebellion that had already seized Federal property all over the South and had fired on Federal troops. Presidents can't declare war. Only Congress can do that, and neither Lincoln nor the Congress ever regarded the Confederacy as a legitimate sovereign entity against which war could be declared.
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  47. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    6,159
    736
    113
    Male
    Working the farm, Garden,horses, goats, chickens,
    Decatur, TN.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Clint,

    So I see that you are disputing the OFFICIAL date of the Civil War?

    .Can you get the OFFICIAL dates changed? If not, why persist on these exceptions? ??

    There always has to be a guy like you, who will dispute anything OFFICIAL and try to push your personal agenda . Why?

    Never mind, it will just you an excuse to push the exceptions, in spite of the facts.
     
  48. johnbscott

    johnbscott Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 25, 2007
    343
    165
    43
    Male
    Country Flag:
    I apologise for starting this diversion from the topic by innocently asking about the Civil War serial numbers but I am most grateful for ALL of the information that has been so kindly provided. Where there are conflicts of data (as there generally are), I shall make my own judgement as I am certain many others will do.

    By the way, I have ordered the NAWCC book and I am eagerly awaiting its arrival.

    This matter is just incidental to what is a most interesting and valuable thread that I hope will continue strongly for some time.
     
    Clint Geller likes this.
  49. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,495
    421
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #49 Clint Geller, Oct 25, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
    Jim,

    What exactly do you think my “agenda” is, and why do think that? And who do you think exactly decided what the “official” end of the war is? You are implicitly criticizing a book that you haven’t even read, because you have prejudged me! Almost nothing about the Civil War is as simple as most people think it is, which is what I was trying to show you. I made a fairly deep dive into that history to write my book. My bibliography contains over sixty entries, more than half of which relate to that history. In the process, I came to know, and made friends among a community of people several of whom are professional historians and other recognized authorities, from whom I have learned much. That community is as devoted or more so to Civil War history as the folks here are to horology. You, on the other hand, don’t even have the basic historical facts of the Civil War straight. You don’t seem to be that familiar with the US Constitution, either.
     
  50. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,495
    421
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    John, I hope you enjoy the book.
     

Share This Page