E N Welch verde-kellogg strike lift help

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by klokwiz, Jun 12, 2019.

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  1. klokwiz

    klokwiz Registered User
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    Feb 4, 2009
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    Hi, not sure if I worded that correctly, but I have a welsh movement that the strike release looks to be modified. I want to restore it to original if possible. I need someone with experience on this movement to tell or show me what parts should look like. I need to determine what the part attached to the minute arbor should look like and the part attached to the unlock lever assy, I would refer to as the "J" wire. the J wire has been replaced with a flat brass piece soldered to the remaining part of the lift lever arbor. I have posted photo of my movement and one of a movement found in a search for pictures. the found pic looks like it shows part of a "J" wire hanging just to the left of the strike great wheel. So this leads me to believe the movement is supposed to have a "J" wire actuated by a wire on the minute arbor, which I don't have a shape for.

    simply stated I would like photo or drawing of what the release on minute arbor and what it releases to start the strike process. thanks, Joe

    movmt front.jpg welch-kellogg movmt.jpg
     
  2. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Oct 19, 2005
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    Could you take it apart and show us the whole lever with the J hook?
     
  3. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
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    Kind of hard to give an opinion on a part that isn't displayed.
     
  4. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
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    There are significant differences in the two movements shown. The one on the left has extremely fine teeth on the 3rd wheel and has a recoil escapement. The one on the right has the club-foot escapement. Clocks made in the mid 1800's typically were not "turn back" clocks and the projection from the minute arbor would likely be just a wire with a right angle bend. If your clock has what's left of a "J" hook wire with something soldered to it, my guess is that it originally had a regular "J" hook wire. The shape would depend on the relative position of the trip wire on the minute arbor. The depth of the "J" is unimportant as long as it isn't obstructed, but as you know the length of tip needs to be such as to drop when the minute hand is on 12:00. Just an ordinary "J" hook shape should do but I would replace the whole thing rather than trying to attach to what's left of the original.

    As already requested, we can't see anything in the pictures and really need to see it apart to be of much help.

    RC
     
  5. klokwiz

    klokwiz Registered User
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    Agreed, but what I am trying to figure out is if someone has photo of correct release parts. it appears to me someone modified this movement.

    Here are photos of what it looks like. the arm attached to release rod arbor is fashioned in such a way to release but it will get "hooked" if minute hand is turned backward, this can be seen in first two photos.

    I have since heated up the arm and turned it 90 degrees so that it will act as release and allow the hand to "pop" past if turned backward. this is now working ok, but have not tested whole strike operation. But my issue is it seems like the flat brass piece was added to a cut off "J" hook. That was/is why I wanted someone to verify the type of release this should have, since it appeared to me in the other movement photo that it had a "J" hook setup.

    release before1.jpg release before2.jpg
     
  6. klokwiz

    klokwiz Registered User
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    hi here are the "repaired" photos. but I still would like to know if this was original setup.

    release after1.jpg release after2.jpg release after3.jpg
     
  7. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    It never had a J hook, so I'm guessing that's original.
     
  8. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    The pick up flirt would be set up differently if it had a J hook. Seems to me a J hook would be much longer and higher in the movement. You may have to adjust this on so it falls of at 12 and 6. But it looks to be original. May have come lose and had to be re-attached at one point.
     
  9. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I agree, but what's there does not look original to me. Perhaps the original was cut off and the angled brass piece soldered on to create a turn-back safety. I'm guessing that originally the cut off wire was the length of the brass piece and terminated in a sharp right angle bend so the pick up flirt could lift it. I believe this clock was made before turn-back devices became common.

    RC
     
  10. klokwiz

    klokwiz Registered User
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    RC, your post #4 was not there when I posted photos of arbor release. Thanks for your response. It seems to me this was modified to have a turn back device and it was re-soldered incorrectly at some point, likely after becoming loose. it was my intent to restore it to original but at this point it is not certain that it had "J" hook or not. So I will likely leave the set up as is provided I can get it to work properly after cleaning.

    Shutterbug, not sure what you meant by it never had J hook, I don't know that that has been established. It could have since it is a round wire coming out of arbor that turn-back brass has been soldered to. so if this was cut off to add the soldered part it likely had a J hook.

    The clock is a marriage of the case and movement and my query in the general discussions has not yielded much info on origins. So I don't think I will be able to properly Identify clock or movement.

    Joe
     
  11. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    A J hook is associated with a wire lift lever. Looking closer at the picture, it's entirely possible that it originally had a wire and a J hook. I see that your setup has been poorly modified. It's always good to enlarge pictures :D
     
  12. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    The lift on the center shaft could not pick up a J hook. It would have to have a turn on the end at a 90 Degrees to do so or to lift.
     
  13. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Good point, R&A .... but we don't know if the lifts are original either. Maybe THEY had the 90° bend :)
     

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