E. Ingraham Steel Plate - Unusual Pivot Failure

[R. Croswell]

This is from the infamous E. Ingraham steel plate movement w/o brass bushings. This is the escape wheel arbor pivot that was running in an unbushed steel pivot hole. I was expecting the pivot to be rough so I took a light cut with the lathe to true things up before polishing. I then notice what looked like a hairline crack along the length of the pivot. So I took another cut and, and then another and instead of going away the "crack" got bigger and bigger until it looks almost like a keyway. What the heck is going on here? Anyone ever seen anything like this? Obviously it has to be repivoted. Apparently arbor continues the flaw because I had trouble getting a true hole. I'll use an oversize plug and turn it true after inserting.

RC

 

[Bruce Alexander]

Hello RC,

Hope your year is off to a good start.

I have not seen this type of flaw before (casting?).

As you say, the pivot will have to be replaced. My questions are will you place a brass bushing in this pivot's hole?
What is the condition of the other pivots? What about the other pivot holes? If you are going to bush the plate, what cutting tool will you use?

A lot of questions, I know. I hope you have time to answer, either directly or indirectly with progress notes/photos. I'll be watching your Thread.

Thank you.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[R. Croswell]

Hello RC,

Hope your year is off to a good start.

I have not seen this type of flaw before (casting?).

As you say, the pivot will have to be replaced. My questions are will you place a brass bushing in this pivot's hole?
What is the condition of the other pivots? What about the other pivot holes? If you are going to bush the plate, what cutting tool will you use?

A lot of questions, I know. I hope you have time to answer, either directly or indirectly with progress notes/photos. I'll be watching your Thread.

Thank you.

Regards,

Bruce

It is not a casting, maybe hot rolled steel, not sure. Normally I just install brass bushings like any other movement. I use Bergeon reamers in the bushing machine along with thread cutting oil. and there is no problem. In this movement someone has been there before me and bushed some of the holes. Looks like they used a dull reamer or drill that rolled up burrs and the pivots look to have been hand filed and are tapered or odd shaped. Got to redo a lot of sloppy old repairs.

Yes, this pivot will be replaced, and I replaced a pivot at the 2nd wheel. Was able to turn down slightly the 3rd and 4th pivots and they should be OK. Haven't inspected the strike train yet. Except for the steel plates, these are decent movements. This was just the first time I've seen a defect like this. As I said, I had an issue drilling this one on center, so drilled the hole large and will turn a large "pivot" and turn it down true to a normal size after it is in place.

RC

 

[Thomas Sanguigni]

It certainly is a sinking feeling when you come across poor repairs. It seems to me lately that so much crap is coming across my bench too.

 

[bikerclockguy]

This is from the infamous E. Ingraham steel plate movement w/o brass bushings. This is the escape wheel arbor pivot that was running in an unbushed steel pivot hole. I was expecting the pivot to be rough so I took a light cut with the lathe to true things up before polishing. I then notice what looked like a hairline crack along the length of the pivot. So I took another cut and, and then another and instead of going away the "crack" got bigger and bigger until it looks almost like a keyway. What the heck is going on here? Anyone ever seen anything like this? Obviously it has to be repivoted. Apparently arbor continues the flaw because I had trouble getting a true hole. I'll use an oversize plug and turn it true after inserting.

RC

View attachment 631923 View attachment 631924

RC, I have a question. I bought a used Sherline 4000 series lathe a couple of years ago, and it’s a huge step up from my homemade turns contraption, in that there is no runout to deal with. Forgive my lack of knowledge of machinists’ nomenclature, but I really like the adjustable 3-sided brass and steel support pictured. When dealing with these types of wheels, I have been short-chucking them, holding my breath, using light pressure on my Emory polishing sticks, and hoping for the best. In some cases, I have resorted to hand polishing by twirling the pivot between 2 Emory buffs clamped tightly with rubber bands. Can you tell me what that accessory is called and where I might be able to buy one? Thanks! -Tom

 

[Isaac]

RC, I have a question. I bought a used Sherline 4000 series lathe a couple of years ago, and it’s a huge step up from my homemade turns contraption, in that there is no runout to deal with. Forgive my lack of knowledge of machinists’ nomenclature, but I really like the adjustable 3-sided brass and steel support pictured. When dealing with these types of wheels, I have been short-chucking them, holding my breath, using light pressure on my Emory polishing sticks, and hoping for the best. In some cases, I have resorted to hand polishing by twirling the pivot between 2 Emory buffs clamped tightly with rubber bands. Can you tell me what that accessory is called and where I might be able to buy one? Thanks! -Tom

They are called steady rests.

 

[Bruce Alexander]

Hello Biker,

Seeing how your question has already been answered, I'll just add the following...

Here's a link to Sherline's online catalog listing of this accessory: https://www.sherline.com/product/1074-steady-rest/

RC has turned his blades down nicely into thin cylinders in order fit relatively thin arbors. You need a four-jaw chuck to turn down square "rod" stock like that. You can also grind/file the blades to form a blunt "knife edge" or screwdriver shaped end. Some folks will fit their blades with small roller/ball bearings which makes for a pretty neat upgrade. Otherwise you can just use some oil/lubricant with them...especially if you're not loading the free end of your work piece with much force.

See this link: https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/sherlines-steady-rest-with-ball-bearings.159781/

Regards,

Bruce

 

[shutterbug]

That's a very odd defect, RC. Interesting that it held up for so long when it was weakened internally like that.

 

[bikerclockguy]

Hello Biker,

Seeing how your question has already been answered, I'll just add the following...

Here's a link to Sherline's online catalog listing of this accessory: Steady Rest – Sherline Products

RC has turned his blades down nicely into thin cylinders in order fit relatively thin arbors. You need a four-jaw chuck to turn down square "rod" stock like that. You can also grind/file the blades to form a blunt "knife edge" or screwdriver shaped end. Some folks will fit their blades with small roller/ball bearings which makes for a pretty neat upgrade. Otherwise you can just use some oil/lubricant with them...especially if you're not loading the free end of your work piece with much force.

See this link: https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/sherlines-steady-rest-with-ball-bearings.159781/

Regards,

Bruce

Thanks for some very helpful info, Bruce! I don’t want to buy a 4-jaw chuck for just the one job, and I really like the bearing modification, but the machine work he did is beyond my skill level at the moment. I can do the filing to achieve the bladed edge though! As I think about it, I’m wondering if the bearing trick would work if I just drilled holes in the square brass stock and mounted them with a bradded pin, with the bearing ID resting against a small steel flat washer to prevent wear to the brass jaws. Any thoughts on that?

 

[Simon Holt]

When dealing with these types of wheels, I have been short-chucking them, holding my breath, using light pressure on my Emory polishing sticks, and hoping for the best.

If you have a Jacobs chuck for the tailstock, you could make some supports that fit in the chuck and support the arbor while you apply downward pressure on the pivot:

Simon

 

[Bruce Alexander]

the square brass stock

The brass stock needs to be reduced to work with the small diameter arbors found in most clocks. Even if you mounted bearings, they would be too big to get close enough to support the arbor because they would interfere with each other.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[R. Croswell]

Thanks for some very helpful info, Bruce! I don’t want to buy a 4-jaw chuck for just the one job, and I really like the bearing modification, but the machine work he did is beyond my skill level at the moment. I can do the filing to achieve the bladed edge though! As I think about it, I’m wondering if the bearing trick would work if I just drilled holes in the square brass stock and mounted them with a bradded pin, with the bearing ID resting against a small steel flat washer to prevent wear to the brass jaws. Any thoughts on that?

Biker, you don't need a 4-jaw chuck to turn the 1/4" square rod used to make the round support rods for the Sherline steady rest shown in my original posting. These were actually turned using a 3-jaw chuck, Care must be taken to ensure that the square stock is secure and the round part will not be centered, which is a good thing. I now have a 4-jaw independent chuck and when I get around to it I'll make another set of supports with the round part right at the edge of the square. Offsetting the round part allows the rest to move closer to the gear wheel when there is only a short stub of the arbor available. I plan to make a set of roller tip supports, primarily for supporting wooden arbors.

I would encourage you to put a 4-jaw (independent jaw) on your want list, along with a dial indicator. There is often a bit of runout with a 3-jaw scroll chuck but with a little time and a dial indicator you can center things nicely with the 4-jaw. Before I spent the money I only had in mind a few special applications, but now that I have it I wonder why I didn't get one sooner.

Probably more helpful would be a set of collets for that lathe. In this example (post # 01) this is an escape wheel and arbor and there is almost no arbor beyond the pivot. I didn't want to drive the turning using the pivot, so I chucked a brass bushing in the collet to fit the pivot. The wheel was then taped to the collet adaptor using blue carpenter's tape. This is called a "tape drive". The collet keeps the pivot well centered but unloaded. The steady rest holds the part against the cutting tool.

That's a very odd defect, RC. Interesting that it held up for so long when it was weakened internally like that.

Indeed it is strange, but before I started turning it down it only appeared as a hairline crack under optics. I had only planned to take a light cut to true up the tapered and worn pivot. The "crack" probably would not have caused a problem. Another interesting this that I found is that a few of the steel pivots were in fine shape along with their steel pivot holes. These were mostly on the strike side. Perhaps the previous owner(s) didn't run the strike side, or kept it well oiled. All the rotating pivots will have brass bushings when it leaves here.

RC

 

[Bruce Alexander]

These were actually turned using a 3-jaw chuck

RC,
May I ask how?
Perhaps if placed in something round which has been center bored out for a tight fit it could be chucked but I can't imagine how something square could be directly chucked and centered in a 3-Jaw Chuck.

This is called a "tape drive"

I noticed this. The tape holds the part so that washers against the blades of the Steady Rest are not required as has been demonstrated elsewhere on the Message Board. An appropriately sized Collet is a good approach, but if a sized Collet is not available a suitable brass rod can be fabricated and drilled/bored out to accept an assortment of bushings.

I like to use elastics to drive the Wheel.

This illustrates the set up. It shows the washers in place which I used before I realized that they are not really necessary. The elastics hold the gear against the Head Stock. I've found it to be a very adaptable arrangement for a wide variety of Wheel Assembly designs.

I believe that you demonstrated this set up some time ago with a small rod attached to the brass rod for a dog drive.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[bikerclockguy]

Thanks for a zillion helpful suggestions, guys! I will definitely invest in some collets for my lathe, and Shutterbug is making me a deal on a steady rest, so I will have a much better setup soon. RC, I encountered something similar to what you have there in a Sessions movement, and posted a thread on it here. If I remember right, it was called “Damascus Pivots?“ because it reminded me of the Damascus barrels on old shotguns. Instead of a solid piece of steel, the pivot(on this one wheel, at least)appears to have been made from tightly rolled flat stock. Mine had a hairline crack as well, and when I looked at the pivot head-on with a jeweler’s loupe is when I spotted the spiral pattern. I got pretty much the same “never seen that before“ responses you got, so I just slicked it up a little and installed it. It was my own clock, so no worries about an angry customer. I also did have a lathe at the time, so installing a new pivot was not an option.

 

[R. Croswell]

RC,
May I ask how?
Perhaps if placed in something round which has been center bored out for a tight fit it could be chucked but I can't imagine how something square could be directly chucked and centered in a 3-Jaw Chuck.

Bruce

Just center one jaw against one of the flats and tighten the chuck. It will tighten up bur be a little off center. You will have to try it to see.

 

[Bruce Alexander]

I'll take your word for it RC. You chucked your Steady Rest blades off-center because center wasn't important for what you wanted to do. Makes sense. I think I can see it in one of your photos now although it's hard to tell with the angles involved.

I do now have an independently adjusted 4-jaw chuck but I don't see how a dial indicator can help one center square stock in it. The only time I've chucked something square in it, I counted the turns for each Jaw as I opened and closed them. I know there must be a better way.

I don't mean to get off-topic. I have seen little faults in brass wheels before but never in steel pivots. I guess one has to be ready for anything. Placing an over-sized, off-center pivot and turning it down to center is a good tip. Thanks for sharing.

 

[R. Croswell]

I'll take your word for it RC. You chucked your Steady Rest blades off-center because center wasn't important for what you wanted to do. Makes sense. I think I can see it in one of your photos now although it's hard to tell with the angles involved.

I do now have an independently adjusted 4-jaw chuck but I don't see how a dial indicator can help one center square stock in it. The only time I've chucked something square in it, I counted the turns for each Jaw as I opened and closed them. I know there must be a better way.

I don't mean to get off-topic. I have seen little faults in brass wheels before but never in steel pivots. I guess one has to be ready for anything. Placing an over-sized, off-center pivot and turning it down to center is a good tip. Thanks for sharing.

Bruce, it generally does not matter if the steady rest blades are off center, but as mentioned earlier, it is an advantage when there is only a stub of arbor between the wheel and pivot. The off center blades allows the fixture to be moved closer to the wheel without the square shanks striking.

A dial indicator can be used to center a square piece by indication on one "flat" then turning the chuck 180 degrees and indicating the opposite flat. You can then shift the piece to center those two flats. Turn 45 degrees and do the same thing. If you want to chuck a lot of square stock a self-centering 4-jaw scroll chuck would be a lot easier. If you want to chuck a rectangular piece the 4-jaw independent is one way to do it and with a dial indicator you can position it on center or off center by the amount desired.

I ran across a similar case in a very old Ansonia Brass & Copper movement. The fault ran along the length of the pivot but didn't get wider when turned. more like a crack or slag inclusion. In that case I cut off the end of the arbor and turned down a section, then fitted a sleeve and turned the sleeve down so it was only a little larger than the original arbor and turned a new pivot on the end as shown here. The "crack" went to the core and I didn't see much chance of centering a pivot, or even retaining a pivot in a cracked arbor. That must have been at least 10 years ago. I still have that clock and it is a nice running piece.

Seems there is always a new cat for one to figure out how to skin.

RC

 

[D.th.munroe]

The brass stock needs to be reduced to work with the small diameter arbors found in most clocks. Even if you mounted bearings, they would be too big to get close enough to support the arbor because they would interfere with each other.

Regards,

Bruce

When I was a kid making models I fit ball point pen tips, cleaned and filled with oil, on the steady rest, worked on some quite small arbors.
Dan

 

[Thomas Sanguigni]

That capped pivot looks like the old 'add a pivot'.

 

[R. Croswell]

When I was a kid making models I fit ball point pen tips, cleaned and filled with oil, on the steady rest, worked on some quite small arbors.
Dan

Neat Idea.

 

[R. Croswell]

That capped pivot looks like the old 'add a pivot'.

I turned it down to nothing to get rid of it, and drilled the arbor. These was no indication that it was not part of the original arbor. Anyways thge movement is back together and happy to have a new pivot and brass bushings. Will probably never for sur what it was.

RC