E. Howard Tower Clock Models

Discussion in 'Tower, Monumental & Street Clocks' started by Donn Haven Lathrop, May 22, 2014.

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  1. Donn Haven Lathrop

    Donn Haven Lathrop Registered User

    Jul 28, 2010
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    Does anyone have, or know of, an identifier for Howard Tower Clock models? I don't want "I've a (you name it) installed in (whenever.) listing. For instance, I can find at lest three different Model 1 tower clocks, ranging from a small time/strike to a time only that will drive 4 10 foot dials.

    As an adjunct to this listing of model #'s, Howard is known to have made around 4,000 tower clocks. The listing I have posted is only some 1800 of those. If you know of a tower clock that is not listed therein, please let me know. Model # would be nice, but not necessary. Installation city, building, and year of installation are necessary. If those data are not included, I won't list it.
     
  2. pmiddents

    pmiddents Registered User
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    Donn's question has also plagued me in the course of my research on Joseph Mayer. Mayer, acting as an agent for Howard, installed a number of tower clocks in the Pacific Northwest. I have visited all the survivors so far identified. One preliminary observation--all No. 1 tower clocks seem to have one second pendulums; all No. 2 clocks have 1.5 second pendulums. I think No. 3 and 4 clocks have two second pendulums. I have never seen a No. 4. I think the only one on the West Coast might be the San Francisco Ferry Building.
    Paul Middents
     
  3. gvasale

    gvasale Registered User
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    Size & pendulum length don't really have any specific relationship. I have which might be a 2 size with a seconds pendulum & I know some have 1 1/2 seconds pendulums. Likewise, the round top,which is difficult to place into the size category has been producec with a seconds and a 1 1/2 seconds pendulum. Photos, later. Some round tops have a small frame they stand on as well.

    Most of them which I have seen have long pendulums.
     
  4. pmiddents

    pmiddents Registered User
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    I just found a catalog reference that states "all clocks can be supplied with short pendulums if necessary". This supports the lack of a specific relationship to pendulum length. However I think there might have been a usual configuration for the various models. I have examined five No 2 clocks in western Washington. They all have 1.5 second pendulums. One, on a timepiece with Graham escapement is wooden (cherry?). The others all have gravity escapements and temperature compensated zinc and steel pendulums. We two No. 3 clocks out here. I think they might have 2 second pendulums.
    Paul Middents
    Silverdale, WA
     
  5. Donn Haven Lathrop

    Donn Haven Lathrop Registered User

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    #5 Donn Haven Lathrop, May 24, 2014
    Last edited: May 24, 2014
    Paul Middents wrote: "However I think there might have been a usual configuration for the various models. I have examined five No 2 clocks in western Washington." That's interesting. Howsomever, in looking about the Internet, I've found three--that's right, 3!--entirely different clocks labeled #1. One is the smallest striking Howard with a 1 second pendulum, then two variants of the same basic clock, a time-only with a 1.5 second pendulum, and the third is a quarter-striking three train with a one second pendulum. So the question remains?

    I copied all the microfilmed Seth Thomas records NAWCC had. Made a stack of photocopies about 4 inches high. Mechanized the listing over the course of six months or so. And I will be damned if I'll do the same with the Howard records. These latter list ALL the clocks Howard sold, not just tower clocks. Reading through 10 pages of microfilmed record looking for a tower clock listing ain't gonna happen, but it's the only way we will likely find out what the models were, and where they were installed. Anyone else feel in a self-flagellating mood?
     
  6. Jim DuBois

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    Donn, your efforts on Seth Thomas tower clocks is a great contribution to our hobby/pastime/passion. I downloaded the existing E Howard journals with the compilation of the tower clocks in mind. After only a few hours I tossed in the towel. There are no easy answers that I found, and the mix of special order clocks mixed in with tower clocks, with no real/clear cut identifications, makes the task onerous at best....I gave up in very short order....

     
  7. gvasale

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    Does anyone recall the "legend" as it was explianed to me a long time ago that Howard used the term "size" so competitors whould not know what you were quoting?

    In the later years, there were timepieces with cabriole legs, flatbeds "T&S" with cabriole legs.

    From "mild to wild" let me say in term of size...The small T&S in the last few days to medium & larger & ditto with timepieces. Then the "wild" like the timepiece in the thread about the one in the Waterbury CT location (recent post) which is identical to the one in City Hall in Worcester, Ma.
     
  8. pmiddents

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    I have heard something like this "legend", that the obscurity of the model numbering system had to do with Howard protecting the details of their designs. It may have been on this forum.

    New question: The Howard Tower Clock Book 1 contains a summary list which is probably the best reference for Model numbers as Howard used them in their own records. I have figured out much of it but do not know what a "toller" attachment refers to.
     
  9. pmiddents

    pmiddents Registered User
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    What is a Model No. 0 Special Time Piece as opposed to just a Model No. 0? I have been assuming that "Special" in the Howard records refers to the round top style clock. I believe all round tops are strikers.
     
  10. Jim DuBois

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    A "toller" in normal old English parlance would be a striking mechanism.....as in "toll the hours".....to Howard? I would think the same.....
     
  11. Donn Haven Lathrop

    Donn Haven Lathrop Registered User

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    The toller is another bell hammer that strikes the sound bow of the bell from below and inside the bell. It is/was used as a "passing bell" rung when someone died. Three blows for a male, two for a female, one for a child, followed by a series of blows according the the age of the deceased.
     
  12. gvasale

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    If I'm not mistaken, I've seen lists, which I believe are attributable to Mr.
    Lathrop, have "striker" which I also figure are striking clocks (naturally.)

    Timepieces are noted.

    "Special"? There is at least one of the round top clocks which according to the source where it was installed that has no strike train...as delivered from the factory.


    One can see the building frustration.
     
  13. pmiddents

    pmiddents Registered User
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    Could you provide any more detail on the round top supplied without a strike train--like where was it installed and when? If it was installed pre 1905 then the order book would have it.

    The 1892 order book notes a "# 0 Special TP" for a 17 ' post clock sold to Richards in Boston. This is the street clock at 383 Washington in front of Howard's Boston office. That would imply that a No. 0 Special in this case was a No. 0 movement set up for installation in the base of a large street clock.
     
  14. pmiddents

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    Thanks Donn. I thought it must be associated with funeral tolling but couldn't figure out the mechanism. I assume this would be manually actuated. I have seen reference to solenoid operated systems too.
    Paul
     
  15. gvasale

    gvasale Registered User
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    Athol, Ma. #3641 was stenciled on the frame IRC. Suggesting by my own guesswork to be sometime in the 1930s or so. Town Hall.
     
  16. Donn Haven Lathrop

    Donn Haven Lathrop Registered User

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    [<QUOTE>Does anyone have, or know of, an identifier for Howard Tower Clock models?</QUOTE>]

    Finally! The answer to my prayers. Paul Middents has generated the best listing of E. Howard tower clock models yet seen He graciously agreed to its mechanization, and it is now available online.

    Go to:

    <http://www.sover.net/~donnl/amtc.html>

    and enjoy. There's a bit of touching up to do, but the meat and potatoes are on the table.
     
  17. Jim DuBois

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    Donn, great work by Paul and I suspect you had a hand in it also........thanks to you both for this very significant contribution....
     
  18. Donn Haven Lathrop

    Donn Haven Lathrop Registered User

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    It is manually activated. I've only seen one in Vermont, on a 1928 Seth Thomas Model 15 Power Wind I restored in the old Assembly of God church in Wilder, Vermont. It's a massive hammer, the same size as the Meneely bell hammer. According to local residents, it was last used in the late '30's/early '40's.
    Donn
     
  19. gvasale

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    I'm going to throw some flys in the ointment. Ward Hill & Park Congregatinal Church (Worcester) both have round top clocks, yet different designations. Athol, Congregational Church has a flatbed, medium size, with a "non conventional" designation according to the list when compared to Spencer. Have to look & see if Athol has the smal leaves cast into the legs, or not. SPencer's clock is the earlier like the Howard & Davis model.
     
  20. pmiddents

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    Fly in the ointment it might be if I could understand your post. I can't find the clocks you refer to in the 1888-1905 tower clock records. You say ""non conventional" designation according to the list when compared to Spencer." What list are you referring to? Who is Spencer? You also refer to leaves cast into the legs. All the Howard cabriole leg designs I have seen are pin striping. I have never seen a cast in design. Pictures of any or all of these clocks would be very helpful.

    I have been remiss in my tower clock visits and have not recorded dimensions of the clocks. These too would really help with model interpretation.
    Paul
     
  21. gvasale

    gvasale Registered User
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    The list is the one which appears with your link, giving locations state by state & various countries.

    Most of my experience & photos are Massachusetts locations. Ward Hill & Spencer are two towns within a few miles or bordering Worcester. I can post photos in the near future...got to replace the power supply in the desktop. I hope thats the only problem, otherwise its quite a bit slower.

    The clock in Spencer is older than the one in Athol...Both in Congregational churches.

    Park Congregational & the Congregational church in Ward Hill, now Auburn, are both round tops. I use that term & also the "economy" model because there are two major castings to the frame. The early clocks with cabriole legs had three small leaves at the top of each leg, later ones did not. I can't recall the leaves on the legs of timepieces. Sorry for the confusion , but Howard didn't make it easy.
     
  22. pmiddents

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    Pictures woud by super! A measurement from the from the plane of the feet to top of the frames of any Howard movements would be most helpful in understanding Model number assignments. I just wish I had been more consistent in this when first examining our clocks in Western Washington.
    Paul
     
  23. gvasale

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    Photos... Leaves on the leg of early cabriole leg...two flatbeds with the same designation in the Howard list...two roundtops with different designations in the Howard list. The clock with the leaves, according to the Howard list, dates to 1869 if I didn't goof up. I failed to get the serial number, but it's not too far away from me.
     

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  24. pmiddents

    pmiddents Registered User
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    Very interesting pictures. Many thanks. Can we use those in the Model paper on Donn's web site? My comments and guesses:

    Picture 1 new to me and very early.

    Picture 2 I think this is a Model 31 from the 1874 catalog. The base in the catalog has cabriole legs and the applied leaf casting. We didn't include the pictures from that catalog but will.

    Picture 3 Model No. 2 striker;

    Picture 4 Model No 2. Special Timepiece? Did it lose its strike train or was it supplied by the factory without a strike train?;

    Picture 5 Model No. 2 Special Striker.

    Thanks again.
    Paul
     
  25. gvasale

    gvasale Registered User
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    Feel free to use the photos. The grey clock is the same as Howard & Davis.

    The green flatbed was of course electrified.

    Of the two round tops, the one which was electrified, I suspect whomever did the work ran off with the missing parts which we know frequently is the case.

    In my view, both round top clocks are the same, notwithstanding the removal of the great wheel on the time train.
     
  26. Jim DuBois

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    I have come across a partial set of drawings for an E Howard No. 3 Striker, drawing number(s) 5127. It has sizes for a lot of the parts which would allow identification of at least the No 3 model as called by Howard. I think that is already done, but just in case....I don't know where I got these drawings, there are perhaps 20 sheets of 11"x17"....They have been in my files for a long time....there are no legs in the drawings but the base is in the drawings...
     
  27. pmiddents

    pmiddents Registered User
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    I need the dimensions for the time train in a Model 0 striker movement. I am particularly interested in the height from the bed to the top piece of the time train.
    Paul Middents
     
  28. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Is this the clock your speak of....size 0 striker? If so, I can provide about any measurements your desire as this one is in my garage....and is the measurement you need from the bed to the top of the cluster gear shaft, or something else?
     

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  29. Gregory Caron

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    Jim I would love to see photos of this clock from all sides thanks Greg
     
  30. Gregory Caron

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    one.jpg Donn Lathrop and I recovered this E. Howard "0" from the Arts center in Sharon Vt It does need a serious cleaning however
    everything is there Lead off rods to all the dials complete with motion works , bell hammer, weights pendulum w/ bob. Al this thing needs is a little tender loving care.
    We will share more photos later it has some different thing not seen on others.
     
  31. Gregory Caron

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    photo.JPG Has anyone seen the use of a small setting dial on the cluster gear like this on any other clocks?
     
  32. gvasale

    gvasale Registered User
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    Yes. Common on Howards, although some have a applied dial which is adjustable, Unless you opted for the much more expensive two handed pilot dial...
     
  33. pmiddents

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    Attached is an example from a Howard No. 2 Timepiece in the Grays Harbor County Courthouse, Montesano, WA. Joseph Mayer installed this clock in 1910.

    Paul Middents
     

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  34. pmiddents

    pmiddents Registered User
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    Jim,
    I need the measurement from the bed to top plate on which the cluster gear sits. Thanks.
    Paul
     
  35. pmiddents

    pmiddents Registered User
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    Jim,
    I also need the spacing between the frames and the inside and outside width at the feet.
    Paul
     
  36. pmiddents

    pmiddents Registered User
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    Are there any examples of Howard tower clocks with a pendulum beating two seconds?
     
  37. gvasale

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    I believe so. I just can't get a photo of the whole thing because it spans two floors. Has a gravity escapement. Regretable, it think it was electrified, but wont say for sure until I dig out the photo.
    I do remember the bell is disconnected.

    Give me some time & I'll put up a photo.
     
  38. Jim DuBois

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    Paul, sorry for the slow response, for some reason I got no notification this thread had been updated. In any event the foot to foot measurement is 15 1/2" outside and 11" inside short way, and 33" outside and 28 3/8" inside. The height from fame to the top of the chimney piece under the cluster is 16". 6 7/8" outside frame side to side, inside frame 6", height of foot floor to frame is 20 1/2" Tolerances about +/- 1/16"...if you need more precision let me know.
     

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  39. Jim DuBois

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    Greg I have a lot of unsorted photos out in the cloud of this clock together and apart. I can "share" them with you if you want to send me your email address. jdubois77354@comcast.net
     
  40. pmiddents

    pmiddents Registered User
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    Jim,
    I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I need the dimensions of the frames pictured in your first image. Height of frame and overall width and width between the feet. I suspect they are very close to the dimensions of a four arbor timepiece movement.
    Paul
     
  41. Jim DuBois

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    OK, now I think I know what you want...the plates are 12 5/8" tall, the feet are 9 1/8" side to side, and the measurement between the feet is 6 1/4" . I sort of wondered about the previous measurements I gave you....didn't make a lot of sense to me, but I have been confused more than once in my lifetime!
     
  42. pmiddents

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    Broadway mvt..jpg I am attaching a picture of a Howard four arbor timepiece with gravity escapement from a master clock in the old Seattle Broadway High School. This was installed by Joseph Mayer in 1912 and fitted with his patent automatic electric winding system. Compare it to the time train on your Model No. 0 striker. The width of the feet on the Broadway clock is very similar : 9 3/4" outside and 6 1/4" inside. The height of the four arbor time piece had to increase significantly to accommodate the going barrel. In the Model No. 0 striker the going barrel bushings are mounted on the base of the clock frame. The four arbor timepiece frame is 16 1/2" high. The inside depth between the frames is about 6" for both clocks. The frame shapes are very similar. The four arbor timepiece frames are flat while the No. 0 striker frames are ribbed. Joseph Mayer frames are all ribbed. Mayer used a movement very similar to the four arbor for his eight dial street clocks. The first of these was the Albert Samuels clock which survives on Market St. in San Francisco.
    Paul
     
  43. gvasale

    gvasale Registered User
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    That IMHO is Unusual. How long is the pendulum?
     
  44. Jim DuBois

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    These clocks in my experience have 1 meter pendulums
     
  45. pmiddents

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    The clock has a zinc and steel compensated seconds pendulum. Joseph Mayer installed at least eight master clocks like this. Three of them survive. One, in Portland, has a Joseph Mayer version of the Howard gravity escapement four arbor movement. The clock stands almost ten feet tall. That's yours truly on the right marveling at the internals. Broadway clock examined.jpg
     
  46. Jim DuBois

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    I think this is one of the Mayer gravity escapements with a decent shot of the pendulum and bob. It may be of Howard construction as the photo came from Howard archives.
     

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  47. pmiddents

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    I included this picture in my paper on Howard Model numbers posted on Donn's web site. The clock is very similar to the Broadway clock. The only difference being the number of slave clock circuits controlled by the master. It was destined for Franklin High School and also installed in 1912. The movement is definitely a Howard four arbor timepiece with gravity escapement. The picture comes from some sort of industrial exposition in Seattle. There is a banner at the upper right that says Joseph Mayer & Bros.
     
  48. pmiddents

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    I just looked at a catalog description for a No. 4 timepiece which states that it had a two second pendulum. The photo would still be of interest.
    Paul
     
  49. Gregory Caron

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    platedetail.jpg back.jpg front.jpg plate.jpg
    Well 11 days have passed and We have come a long way on the E Howard wreck. All that is left
    to be done is mount two bevel gears and brackets on the top of the time side.

    A question I have - Has anyone seen this type of identifier brass plate on other clocks? All that I have been able to find are the plates with two screws and are marked E. Howard & CO. Boston Mass As you can see this one says Made By The E Howard Clock Co. Boston I 'am hoping this will help date the clock for we could not find and serial number.

    Also the bronze arms that hold the fan fly blades are marked H. W. & C. Co. can anyone
    tell me if they have seen this one other clocks?

    And last but not least thanks to Jim for forwarding all the great photos of his restoration of his
    Howard tower clock they were of great help.
     
  50. gvasale

    gvasale Registered User
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    #50 gvasale, Jun 24, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
    Plates are optional I think. Take it off any you will find the SN. You may have to scrape away some paint/debris. Several of the Howards I've seen have this plate. Some have used it as a dedication plate.

    I have never looked for any ID on the fly/fan support arms.


    The clock in this thread https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?112905-Waterbury-clock-tower is probably your 4 size "clock"
     

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