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Not an impossible search, but it won't be easy. Early Howards take a specially sized case and it must have the key holes in the right locations to be seen as original. With truly thousands of gold cases being melted through the century plus since your movement was made, gold will probably be much harder to find than silver. And you have a lot of folks looking for the same thing. I am not sure, but it may be possible that your early Series III movement will take a thicker case due to it having the balance wheel over the center wheel. That won't make it easier. Still, I wish you luck.
Most folks who buy early Howard movements today without a case know that they're very likely to be enjoying their movement outside of a case for a long time. Sorry if that's bad news, but it's the facts with early Howards.
The Series III is a beautiful movement. Enjoy it as it is, and keep your eyes peeled. One never knows. You might get lucky. Cheers.
BTW, what does "experimental manufacturer" mean in your title?
Most folks who buy early Howard movements today without a case know that they're very likely to be enjoying their movement outside of a case for a long time. Sorry if that's bad news, but it's the facts with early Howards.
The Series III is a beautiful movement. Enjoy it as it is, and keep your eyes peeled. One never knows. You might get lucky. Cheers.
BTW, what does "experimental manufacturer" mean in your title?
Reading Clint Gellers writings I note he lists 3000 to 3106 as being the rare "experimental" run of less than 100 "K" series E. Howards , I have asked him if #3162 could be correct even if outside / higher than prior reports??
Hi Tom,
Of course, this movement has the size, "N," engraved right on it, and the layout is exactly that of an N Size Model 1862N movement. (Movement size is determined by dial plate diameter, not top plate diameter, just to be clear.) The presence of a long regulator with index scale engraved on the top plate of movement SN 3,162, the case screw on the balance cock instead of the dial plate, and the single-line signature dial both indicate that this movement likely was made later than its serial number would suggest. Although, it is an early balance-over-center Model 1862N movement, which is thicker than later examples and has the case screw situated at the edge of the balance cock, instead of on the top plate. And, of course, the current dial could be a`replacement, like the hands.
Howard serial number anomalies like this are more common than one might imagine. There is another Model 1862N movement with SN 41,994! Go figure. Unfortunately, the factory records cannot help us at all here, because the earliest ledger known to have survived begins with SN 3,301.
Unfortunately, to get a correct case you will likely need to evict another Model 1862N movement from its case. Perhaps you might find a correctly cased movement in poor condition somewhere, which would make uncasing it a relatively minimal loss. Whatever case you may find for this very interesting movement, I would ditch those hideous replacement hands as soon as I could. Good luck!
Of course, this movement has the size, "N," engraved right on it, and the layout is exactly that of an N Size Model 1862N movement. (Movement size is determined by dial plate diameter, not top plate diameter, just to be clear.) The presence of a long regulator with index scale engraved on the top plate of movement SN 3,162, the case screw on the balance cock instead of the dial plate, and the single-line signature dial both indicate that this movement likely was made later than its serial number would suggest. Although, it is an early balance-over-center Model 1862N movement, which is thicker than later examples and has the case screw situated at the edge of the balance cock, instead of on the top plate. And, of course, the current dial could be a`replacement, like the hands.
Howard serial number anomalies like this are more common than one might imagine. There is another Model 1862N movement with SN 41,994! Go figure. Unfortunately, the factory records cannot help us at all here, because the earliest ledger known to have survived begins with SN 3,301.
Unfortunately, to get a correct case you will likely need to evict another Model 1862N movement from its case. Perhaps you might find a correctly cased movement in poor condition somewhere, which would make uncasing it a relatively minimal loss. Whatever case you may find for this very interesting movement, I would ditch those hideous replacement hands as soon as I could. Good luck!
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If you have access to a copy of Townsend's book on Early Howards, you can see that the plate layout is very different on the exceedingly rare "K" E. Howard. Or perhaps one of Dr. Geller's articles shows the series as well. I seem to remember he does show a "K" in one of his Bulletin articles. Cheers.
Found. October 1994, pg 576.
Found. October 1994, pg 576.
Indeed my 2005 book shows pictures of K Size movements, and my friend Alan Myers's more recent NAWCC Bulletin article on the Howard K Size, which appeared in the July-August 2021 issue, shows several examples. SN 3,162 does not appear to be a K Size.
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I would be remiss if I didn't point out that movement SN 3,162 is the lowest numbered Model 1862N movement I have ever seen or heard of, even if it does not appear to be the earliest one made, and that's still a really cool find! The few other movements I have seen from the 3,101 to 3,300 SN range are all indeed "experimental" in one way or another. Thanks for sharing, Tom.
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I don't have Oct '95 but do have Dr Geller's 2005 book and am reading it again.....Thanks to ALL
"Series III" is not a Howard factory designation. It was a term invented in the 1950's by collectors Percy Livingston Small and F. Earl Hackett, and subsequently popularized by George Townsend. It was based on the relatively limited information they had at the time, and was defined in terms of contiguous serial number blocks. On that basis, they lumped the very small numbers of early K Size and I Size movements in with the approximately 24,000 N Size "Series III" movements. This is one of several issues and nonidealities with the Small-Hackett-Townsend"Series" scheme. Since the Howard factory records have become available to the public in 2001, it became possible to devise a better naming convention based on factory introduction dates that elimnates many of the ambiguities of the older scheme. Both movement naming conventions are defined and compared here. Alan Myers recently published an excellent Bulletin article focusing exclusively on the K Size (Model 1862-K) movements, and Alan and I then coauthored another article on the I Size Model 1863-I Size movements. Alan and I have a much larger article on the N Size Model 1862-N movements currently with the Bulletin editor.I don't think I every realized that the Series III came in three sizes. I thought they were all "N" size. Shows what I know.
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All Series III movements are "N" size.
If you read the Small articles or Townsend's book it makes perfect sense.
If you read the Small articles or Townsend's book it makes perfect sense.
Bryan Eyring , I'm not sure about your reference to information from Townsend's book on early Howards. On page 10, of what is supposed to be a virtual reprint (Ehrhardt, 1985) of Townsend's own words, drawings, etc., it shows the Series III column extending down through what he calls 1860 K's, N's, and I's. Color me confused. 
Hi, do you have a link to this virtual reprint? I'd like to see what you're referring to.
The Townsend book has its warts but its movement classification system and terminology is the Bible for 99% of E. Howard collectors.
The Townsend book has its warts but its movement classification system and terminology is the Bible for 99% of E. Howard collectors.
mea culpa, mea culpa,
mea máxima culpa. .......I reported the Ser# as 3162 .....it is in fact #8162, KW, Pat.#24. 1857, Gilt....better magnification helps....sending it to John Wilson for any Case it will fit in/ replated as he deems fit, and change hands as he deems appropriate, John did not Flog me but Corrected me accordingly, in a gentle tone , my Apologies to ALL!!
mea máxima culpa. .......I reported the Ser# as 3162 .....it is in fact #8162, KW, Pat.#24. 1857, Gilt....better magnification helps....sending it to John Wilson for any Case it will fit in/ replated as he deems fit, and change hands as he deems appropriate, John did not Flog me but Corrected me accordingly, in a gentle tone , my Apologies to ALL!!
Bryan Eyring , I'm not sure about your reference to information from Townsend's book on early Howards. On page 10, of what is supposed to be a virtual reprint (Ehrhardt, 1985) of Townsend's own words, drawings, etc., it shows the Series III column extending down through what he calls 1860 K's, N's, and I's. Color me confused.
Just to clear-up on Townsend's info relating to the older naming convention, I have a 1971 copyright book here (so early then the above mention article), in it he mentions Series III's in N and K Sizes and between the serial numbers of 3001-30000 in serial number list one page over from the plate drawings/cuts.
In this book there is no mention of the I size in the plate drawings, but they are mentioned in the serial number list as Series X (500001-600000 which include Series J's) & Series XI (600001-700000 which includes Series L's), at no point are they mention as Series III's.
Well, that changes things, doesn't it? SN 8,162 is consistent with the long regulator and the case screw on the balance cock, as well as the balance being pivoted above the center wheel. The dial may still be a somewhat later replacement, though.
It's still a nice movement.
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Bila, The Small-Hackett-Townsend naming convention is based on contiguous serial number blocks, and the I Size movements at SNs 3,401 - 3,500, which are very close in design to the contemporaneous N Size movements, all occur after the beginning of the N Size "Series III's" at SN 3,301. Even the K Size movements at SNs 3,001 to 3,106, which have greater design differences from the N Size movements, were designated as "Series III." The range of SNs from 3,101 to 3,300 mostly was not used, and those few numbers in that range that were used were experimental movements with very different plate layouts and either helical or Breguet overcoil hairsprings. The clear implication is that the I Size movements were considered by Towsend as Series III's too, or they would have been designated as a separate series.
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I do not doubt what you are saying Clint in the above comments, I was only referencing what was in George Townsend's book, copyright 1971, in which he does not mention the "I Size" in his list till much later in his serial number runs and both are under Series "X" & "XI".
Under the timeframe of this research book in 1971, it is very possible that he had never seen a "I Size" in the early runs, therefore why it is not mentioned in this publication. Thus, under this premise, I fail to see any clear implication at that time (1971) that he considered the "I" Size as a "Series III".
Bila, The Series "X" is a much later nickel J Size stemwind movement and always was. The Series XI is an even later 17 jewel hunting case L Size split plate stemwind movement with nickel plates and a Breguet hairspring. These were both designs of the 1890's, whereas the I Size movements were made in 1863. So I am puzzled by your statement. I'm afraid my copy of Townsend is buried somewhere at the moment, but I'm pretty sure the colonel knew about I Size movements. If he failed to explicitly include them in his series scheme as Series III's, I would guess it was just an oversight.
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Just referencing what is in his 1971 book Clint, I have now had a look at the page of his 1985 book that was published after his passing and it is different to the 1971 edition, in this 1985 edition he has the "Size I" under the "Series III's" as you have stated.
Makes perfect sense. The dial, balance & staff construction, and movement markings all hang with an 81xx serial.
Now to find a pair of replacement hands!
Add: Make sure not to drive your case screw too far into the movement. Some of these are tapped through and will press against / crack the dial if one is not careful.
Good luck!
I have removed several posts from this thread that had nothing to do with the original question. Please keep it civil from here. I'd rather not have to lock or remove this thread. There's some good information here.
The second post on the E. Howard & Co. sticky thread at the top of this forum contains a list, which as of February 4, 2023, includes information about 1,217 N Size Model 1862-N (Series III) movements that has been recorded from numerous sources by myself or my research collaborator, Prof. Alan Myers, a prolific horological author in his own right. This table, which was originally posted March 4, 2022 and has been continuously updated since then, was compiled to support an NAWCC Bulletin article by Alan and myself on the Howard Model 1862N movement, which is now with the Bulletin editor. The table is too large to have included it in the printed article, but we wanted everyone who would wish access to all our relevant data to have it, and this website, which provides the most comprehensive list of resources for E. Howard & Co. watch collectors on the web, is the perfect venue to provide it.
Readers with additional information to share on this subject are encouraged to provide it, either in a message board post, or in a PM to me, so that we may add it to the database table. Please provide pictures, if at all possible, to ensure data with maximum detail, veracity, and value for all. Thanks very much in advance for contributing.
Readers with additional information to share on this subject are encouraged to provide it, either in a message board post, or in a PM to me, so that we may add it to the database table. Please provide pictures, if at all possible, to ensure data with maximum detail, veracity, and value for all. Thanks very much in advance for contributing.
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