E.HOWARD & CO. BOSTON SIZE18 400808

[TaPaVa76]

Hound grade, hunter cased, where is the value ?? Moorhouse Dial?? per book, Pocket Watch is case# 288947 size 18 / N ?? with plain Gold Fill stamp

 

[musicguy]

Welcome to the NAWCC forum

Can you post some photographs of your watch?


Rob

 

[TaPaVa76]

Welcome to the NAWCC forum

Can you post some photographs of your watch?


Rob

 

[musicguy]

where is the value ?? Moorhouse Dial?? per book

What information are you looking for. Do you want people
here to give you an aprox value of the watch? or are you wondering
why it's not worth as much as the book says.



Rob

 

[TaPaVa76]

Rob, it does not seem to fit the book, Moorhouse dial is not as Moorhouse examples reveal and it is not noted as being HC in the book/ book says HC is either Silver or 14K, Grades not listed, my concerns are is it a 'put together' after the factory to appear original/ but is not??

 

[musicguy]

Hopefully an E. Howard expert can review your photos and
give you a good answer. Just so I understand is it the Complete price Guide
to PW or another book. If its the Price Guide there are many mistakes
in the book.


Rob

 

[TaPaVa76]

Hopefully an E. Howard expert can review your photos and
give you a good answer. Just so I understand is it the Complete price Guide
to PW or another book. If its the Price Guide there are many mistakes
in the book.


Rob

I

I have been told, but had hope someone here / Howard guy , could help, I have many Howards but only a few prior to 1904

 

[Harold Visser]

Well first of all, all 400,001 to 405,000 numbers without exceptions are N sz HC Hound grade gilt movements. Cases available could be gold filled, silver or solid gold. This low grade line was Howards attempt at breaking into the low cost market of watch sales. This was well after Edward Howard retired, he would not have approved such a move. I could not open your attachment, so I have no idea if it has a "Moorehouse" dial or not.
Lastly, I think you need to be aware that Keystone, post 1904 are vastly different and have nothing in common with the early Howards.

 

[TaPaVa76]

Thank You Harold , Your views are widely respected, I have many Keystone Howards , but just a few E. Howard & CO pre 1904 .Try to get the few I can afford . This one at $900 was at the very high end of my purchases and I hope it works out. My mentor ,Vern Playton , is critical of purchases off of ebay !! but has coached me on ALL Howards/ they are my favorite !!
Thank You Again for your input and hope you can open the pictures ,attached

 

[TaPaVa76]

Thank You Harold , Your views are widely respected, I have many Keystone Howards , but just a few E. Howard & CO pre 1904 .Try to get the few I can afford . This one at $900 was at the very high end of my purchases and I hope it works out. My mentor ,Vern Playton , is critical of purchases off of ebay !! but has coached me on ALL Howards/ they are my favorite !!
Thank You Again for your input and hope you can open the pictures ,attached

 

[TaPaVa76]

As you were kind to help on the "N" , I assume this "Howard" does not have the correct Dial

 

[Clint Geller]

Based on the attachments in the OP, I see no reason to think the dial of that watch is a Moorhouse product, though Moorhouse did sign some perfectly ordinary dials like yours. Why do you think it might be a Moorhouse product, TaPaVa76? I also think it is very likely that your case, while it looks original, is only gold-filled. Gold-filled cases are fine in the railroad watch market, but most early Howard collectors greatly prefer their Howards in solid gold cases. On the plus side, your watch looks like it is both highly original and in good shape.

 

[TaPaVa76]

Based on the attachments in the OP, I see no reason to think the dial of that watch is a Moorhouse product, though Moorhouse did sign some perfectly ordinary dials like yours. Why do you think it might be a Moorhouse product, TaPaVa76? I also think it is very likely that your case, while it looks original, is only gold-filled. Gold-filled cases are fine in the railroad watch market, but most early Howard collectors greatly prefer their Howards in solid gold cases. On the plus side, your watch looks like it is both highly original and in good shape.

 

[TaPaVa76]

I've posted two Howards , a 18(1890) and a 16(1909), both with questionable dials , I'm not a Collector , I'm an accumulator of nice inexpensive pocket watches ,I played out of my league with the 18 at $900 , the 16 was $130 which has been keeping Quartz time x 72 hrs, if the 18 works as well I will be very pleased !!
Clint , are you speaking of the 18 dial/ Roman ,or the 16/ Arabic

 

[Clint Geller]

I've posted two Howards , a 18(1890) and a 16(1909), both with questionable dials , I'm not a Collector , I'm an accumulator of nice inexpensive pocket watches ,I played out of my league with the 18 at $900 , the 16 was $130 which has been keeping Quartz time x 72 hrs, if the 18 works as well I will be very pleased !!
Clint , are you speaking of the 18 dial/ Roman ,or the 16/ Arabic

I was speaking of the N Size, what you are calling 18 Size, Roman dial. The dial looks entirely correct for the watch, but I see no reason to think it is a Moorhouse product. Even if Moorhouse did happen to sign it, the value wouldn't change much because the dial has none of his signature design features.

Similarly, your case shows no extra case screw marks, the movement fits the case very well, and there is no superflous empty lever slot under the bezel or a set screw in the pendant, so I'd say it is likely original. I generally don't comment on the prices other people pay for watches, but your watch seems correct..

 

[TaPaVa76]

Thank You Harold , Your views are widely respected, I have many Keystone Howards , but just a few E. Howard & CO pre 1904 .Try to get the few I can afford . This one at $900 was at the very high end of my purchases and I hope it works out. My mentor ,Vern Playton , is critical of purchases off of ebay !! but has coached me on ALL Howards/ they are my favorite !!
Thank You Again for your input and hope you can open the pictures ,attached

 

[musicguy]

Looks great



Rob

 

[TaPaVa76]

I was speaking of the N Size, what you are calling 18 Size, Roman dial. The dial looks entirely correct for the watch, but I see no reason to think it is a Moorhouse product. Even if Moorhouse did happen to sign it, the value wouldn't change much because the dial has none of his signature design features.

Similarly, your case shows no extra case screw marks, the movement fits the case very well, and there is no superflous empty lever slot under the bezel or a set screw in the pendant, so I'd say it is likely original. I generally don't comment on the prices other peole pay for watches, but your watch seems correct..

 

[TaPaVa76]

As this is my first POST I will learn the etiquette of posting here and will not post price in the future !!

 

[musicguy]

As this is my first POST I will learn the etiquette of posting here and will not post price in the future !!

No rules broken

You can talk about price even if others do not want comment on it. You can even ask for a value
of a watch you own. Everyone here is different. Your post was absolutely fine.


Rob

 

[Clint Geller]

As this is my first POST I will learn the etiquette of posting here and will not post price in the future !!

I never meant to imply that your post broke any rules. I just don't personally feel comfortable offering appraissals on a public message board. That's not your problem, TaPaVa79.

 

[John Cote]

I agree completely with Clint's assessment of the watch but would like to emphasize one thing. If the seller of this watch described it as having a Moorhouse dial the description was probably false. I would give big odds that this dial does not have a Moorhouse signature on the back. If it doesn't have the signature there is, as Clint said, no reason to even suspect that it is a Moorhouse.

Other than that it seems a nice and totally right E. Howard watch.

 

[TaPaVa76]

Thank you ALL for your comments, as a NewBee I need all the help I can get !!. The reason I thought it may be a Moorhouse dial is 'The Book' only lists 3 , Gold , Silver and Moorhouse Dial. Now I know it is NOT Moorhouse, Not the value listed in the book, it is a Nice original E Howard & CO but I probably paid retail as I tend to do )) My 1909 Keystone Howard ? is keeping Quartz time x 4 days !!

 

[Clint Geller]

Thank you ALL for your comments, as a NewBee I need all the help I can get !!. The reason I thought it may be a Moorhouse dial is 'The Book' only lists 3 , Gold , Silver and Moorhouse Dial. Now I know it is NOT Moorhouse, Not the value listed in the book, it is a Nice original E Howard & CO but I probably paid retail as I tend to do )) My 1909 Keystone Howard ? is keeping Quartz time x 4 days !!

TaPaVa, the August 1993 issue of the NAWCC Bulletin features an article written by me on E. Howard & Co. watch dials that includes detailed guidance on how to recognize Moorhouse dials. If you are an NAWCC member, you can download a copy from this website. Cheers.

 

[TaPaVa76]

Clint, Thanks , I've been looking for a copy of the 1899? Calendar that shows his designs, but as I have your attention ,What is the significance of a Howard 12/14s 21 Jewel Pocket Watch as the case Ser.# LookUp says its a 23J but mine is stamped 21J, also it has an obvious to the eye crosshair, how does that detract from the overall value? as it is Otherwise VERY NICE !!

 

[Clint Geller]

Clint, Thanks , I've been looking for a copy of the 1899? Calendar that shows his designs, but as I have your attention ,What is the significance of a Howard 12/14s 21 Jewel Pocket Watch as the case Ser.# LookUp says its a 23J but mine is stamped 21J, also it has an obvious to the eye crosshair, how does that detract from the overall value? as it is Otherwise VERY NICE !!

Hi TaPaVa, your question concerns a movement made either for or by the E. Howard Watch Co. of Waltham, which is not my bailiwick. Perhaps Jerry Treiman can answer your question if he sees this thread.

 

[TaPaVa76]

Clint, group, can I ask another, just got a 21 Jewels Howard Watch Co Series 10 , which was stated as "railroad" ...Book says NO, it is a Railroad face but NOT 'Grade' I assume? How does that affect value as I got it at 1/2 the low Book(2012 edition)

 

[MrRoundel]

I agree with others have said about the early Howard series IX. It's doubtful that it has a Moorhouse dial on it. But, as Dr. Geller and others have mentioned, it doesn't look non-original. The case is interesting in that it does look like an original gold-filled case. In my experience most of the early Howards are in solid 14/18K gold or silver cases. Having it in a nice gold-filled case does make it much more affordable for someone who wants an all original early Howard. As far as value, I'll say that $900 seems a bit rich to me for it. If it had a signed Moorhouse dial that exhibited some of his stylistic touches, it may have been fair. But alas, that is probably not the case. We know that it lacks any obvious Moorhouse styled numerals or other decorations.
The Series X I(Bridge model) Keystone Howard is a RR grade pocket watch all day long. The Series X was the first pocket watch I ever owned. Most of those seem to be housed in gold-filled swing-out cases. Many had Montgomery dials, as mine does, FWIW. Good luck with your collecting. Cheers.

 

[TaPaVa76]

Hi TaPaVa, your question concerns a movement made either for or by the E. Howard Watch Co. of Waltham, which is not my bailiwick. Perhaps Jerry Treiman can answer your question if he sees this thread.

Could not open the Aug1993 edition but could buy it online for $20 :00....about what I hope to get a Moorhouse calendrer for....'NOT'

 

[Harold Visser]

TaPaVAa I'll throw up some Moorehouse pics for you, from very plain to extremely ornate,
Harold

 

[TaPaVa76]

TaPaVAa I'll throw up some Moorehouse pics for you, from very plain to extremely ornate,
Harold View attachment 662838 View attachment 662839 View attachment 662845 View attachment 662846 View attachment 662849 View attachment 662850 View attachment 662851 View attachment 662840

Thanks Harold, the second pic is like my 'N' but I have NO red Arabic Numerals, so did he just 'Finish' other dials sometimes? Has anyone ever reproduced the ?1899 Calendar that displays his work, I have been looking for one !!?? That 1st one is amazing, would you call him a Calligrapher ?? here is my Swiss Made Transcontinential, 21J, with a similar Dial !!

 

[MrRoundel]

Thanks for posting the great dials, Harold Visser. I would have never thought the second one would be a Moorhouse. The last one, which likely adorns a split-plate movement, looks like the regular double-sunk I have seen on split-plates. That's another I wouldn't have thought of as a Moorhouse. Shows what I don't know. And the book of such things is getting thicker by the day. Thanks again. Cheers.

 

[Clint Geller]

TaPaVAa I'll throw up some Moorehouse pics for you, from very plain to extremely ornate,
Harold View attachment 662838 View attachment 662839 View attachment 662845 View attachment 662846 View attachment 662849 View attachment 662850 View attachment 662851 View attachment 662840

Harold, as I'm sure you know, signed double sunk Moorhouse dials are especially rare. I've only seen one or two others. Is the double sunk dial you showed signed? And what kind of movement is it on? The first split plate movements were produced just as Moorhouse was walking out the door at EH&Co.

 

[Harold Visser]

Not much gets by Clint when it comes to Howards, The pic I intended to post was this one ......It would be nice that the split plate dial was a signed Moorhouse, but it is on a Ser VIII OF, made too late for it be Moorhouse.

 

[Clint Geller]

Well, as long as we're showing Moorhouse dials, here are two of my favorites, one of which is Harold's avatar.

 

[John Cote]

Could not open the Aug1993 edition but could buy it online for $20 :00....about what I hope to get a Moorhouse calendrer for....'NOT'

Joining the NAWCC is the best value in the watch world. Access to the Bulletins is only the beginning. There is a new member offer right now. Click the appropriate box on the page at the below link. You will never regret it and never look back.

NAWCC Membership Application

net.nawcc.org

 

[musicguy]

You will never regret it and never look back.

True!


Rob

 

[TaPaVa76]

True!


Rob

Et .Al. ....For a NewBee / Diapered Rookie, should I do a reg. membership at 90, associate at 30 or New 1st timer at 50 and I assume those are yearly dues / renewable, Tom

 

[musicguy]

1st timer at 50

Why not start here. The bottom line is that what ever you do
it will be good for the NAWCC and you.

Rob

 

[John Cote]

What every you do....keep coming back here and asking questions. When you need help with anything from watches to local chapters to NAWCC events, let us know.