E Howard #124

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by RHD, Mar 3, 2018.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. RHD

    RHD Registered User

    Feb 17, 2012
    20
    0
    1
    Male
    Attorney
    Arlington
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I am very new to this forum. I recently acquired an Edward Howard, serial number 124. I found on Google a reference to this message board re a collection of Edward Howard serial numbers that included #124. There is a notation "124 PS, Howard Case w/ Jurgensen Lips NOT Orig." Does anyone have any information on the provenance of movement #124? I am more of a user than a collector and I intend to use this as a watch in regular rotation (when wearing 3 piece suits for business meetings). That said, I am curious about its life since leaving the factory.
     
  2. Kent

    Kent Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Silver Member

    Aug 26, 2000
    18,437
    1,757
    113
    Country Flag:
    Ed Ueberall and I have two reports of this watch (Edward Howard serial number 124) in our data base of surviving examples of railroad watches and other interesting (to us) watches. Both state that it was in a 14K Howard hinged back & bezel case having Jurgensen lips; the earlier report states that the case was not original to the watch.

    October, 1995: Bob Wingate's mail-order list #227; pendant-set, single-sunk dial w/ faint hairline, asking price $4,195.

    March 1996: Modesto Horology (Manny Trauring) catalog #4; pendant-set, asking price $4,475.

    Our practice at the time was only to record a watch once per dealer unless there was a significant price change; so it could have been unsold at the above mentioned prices and offered by the above dealers over a period of months.
     
  3. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jan 12, 2017
    5,896
    2,863
    113
    New York State
    Country Flag:
    Can you post some photographs of the watch?

    Thanks
    Rob
     
  4. RHD

    RHD Registered User

    Feb 17, 2012
    20
    0
    1
    Male
    Attorney
    Arlington
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I have tried to make photos using a smartphone camera. Apparently I cannot upload images because I do not have sufficient posts. I would be happy to forward to someone who has upload privileges.

    20180304_154130.jpg 20180304_153118.jpg 20180304_152932.jpg
     
  5. RHD

    RHD Registered User

    Feb 17, 2012
    20
    0
    1
    Male
    Attorney
    Arlington
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I seem to have misunderstood something. Herewith the remaining smartphone images.

    20180304_153257.jpg 20180304_153303.jpg
     
  6. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
    Donor

    Dec 28, 2010
    1,201
    157
    63
    So. Cal., USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I'd sure fall for that being an original case. At least it looks like the design that I've seen on the E. Howard. models over the years. It's a beauty, for sure. And rather valuable to have at the end of an chain today. I don't know how many were made, but they are special, beautifully made, certainly not numerous, and yours to enjoy. Cheers,.
     
  7. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 25, 2000
    6,270
    1,570
    113
    Geologist - California Geological Survey
    Los Angeles, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    When I first saw the original post here it had been appended to this 15 year old thread* -- Request for Edward Howard (free sprung) serial numbers................
    Based on the observed serial number range at that time one might infer that there were as many as 350 made.

    (*not clear when or why it was moved )
     
  8. RHD

    RHD Registered User

    Feb 17, 2012
    20
    0
    1
    Male
    Attorney
    Arlington
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Inner case

    20180304_153837.jpg
     
  9. Kent

    Kent Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Silver Member

    Aug 26, 2000
    18,437
    1,757
    113
    Country Flag:
    If the movement serial number (124) doesn't appear in the circle on the cuvette, then it's not the original case.
     
  10. Kent

    Kent Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Silver Member

    Aug 26, 2000
    18,437
    1,757
    113
    Country Flag:
    Referring to my post #3 in the old thread that Jerry linked to:

    Its now almost fifteen years since I reported the serial numbers in that post. Since then we've probably added reports of 15,000 - 20,000 watches to our data base. However, neither Ed nor I have recorded a serial number lower than 43. Nor have we recorded one higher than 313.
     
  11. RHD

    RHD Registered User

    Feb 17, 2012
    20
    0
    1
    Male
    Attorney
    Arlington
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    My guess is that the original presentation case has been lost forever, but that this case is a "genuine" Howard (Keystone) case for another watch series. It has a long serial number on one of the back covers. All that said, I am a user more than a collector (just too many watches to carry frequently). Thus, I am quite happy with the purchase of #124 and real collectors do not have to worry that I will damage a rare collector's item by carrying a genuine presentation-cased original. It is, so far, amazingly accurate and thus meets my timekeeping needs as well as the need for ballast on my excessive girth. This is quite an interesting website. I plan to post some of my other watches in case they would be interesting to anyone besides me. Regards
     
  12. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jan 12, 2017
    5,896
    2,863
    113
    New York State
    Country Flag:
    Kent was talking about the inner lid(cuvette) marking that you don't have a photo of
    not the back cover. Maybe it is there.


    Rob
     
  13. RHD

    RHD Registered User

    Feb 17, 2012
    20
    0
    1
    Male
    Attorney
    Arlington
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Is that inside that inner cover?
    I opened the cuvette and found a serial number quite different from 124 (attached). I am still quite pleased. I hope the lack of on original case is not too disappointing to other members. Kind regards

    20180305_112548.jpg
     
  14. Kent

    Kent Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Silver Member

    Aug 26, 2000
    18,437
    1,757
    113
    Country Flag:
    That is normal; it is on the other side of the cuvette that the movement serial number should appear in the circular band marked "Edward Howard - The Howard Watch Co. & etc."
     
  15. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 15, 2009
    3,140
    321
    83
    Chemist
    Kentucky
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Just to make a few comments:

    1. This watch is rarely referred to as an E. Howard watch. Among collectors, the subject watch is THE Edward Howard.

    2. This is arguably the finest watch made in America-please treat it carefully!
     
  16. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    5,729
    2,381
    113
    Male
    Retired Sr. Proj. mgr,
    South
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Nice watch!

    You should carry what you want. I don't carry the gold ones. I grabbed some hinged
    glass backs and cased some old E Howard & Co movements, (those I carry ).

    Note, listen to the all stars on this thread and you can't go wrong, (post #2 to #15).

    Keith R...
     
  17. RHD

    RHD Registered User

    Feb 17, 2012
    20
    0
    1
    Male
    Attorney
    Arlington
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I will be careful. The thrill of a recent purchase has not worn off, but I hope to come to my senses sometime this week.

    I often carry gold filled, silver or stainless pocket watches, but when I have to be in "full battle regalia" for a meeting when the other participants feel calmer viewing me as a vestige of late antiquity, I always carry gold. My watch of choice for 30 years was my grandfather's full hunter 14k Waltham Riverside maximus.

    At some point I decided to put that in a safe deposit box for my own grandchildren and that began the curious quest for a very fine solid gold watch to "carry." My regular carry watch, when not dressed up, is a Hamilton 950B or a Waltham 18s Vanguard 23J.

    Thank you for the good advice. I intend to follow it as I try to learn more.
     
  18. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    5,729
    2,381
    113
    Male
    Retired Sr. Proj. mgr,
    South
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #18 Keith R..., Mar 6, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2018
    RHD, welcome to this great hobby. I view myself as a steward of these watches.
    My uncle Strick in Shreveport, carried nothing but Hamilton's while an Engineer
    employed with the Kansas City Southern lines. My Dad carried an Elgin and retired
    from the KCS in 1980.

    Here's what I carry for the most part. Good luck, learn and ask, as these folks are
    great here on this board.

    Keith Richmond

    Shown 15J AT&Co grade KWKS American watch Co and an E Howard & Co KWKS
    15J with a patented Mershon regulator.

    PS...Check your profile page RHD, I left you a post for servicing watches.

    103_7620 (800x600).jpg 103_7615 (800x600).jpg 103_9118 (800x600).jpg 103_9122 (800x600).jpg
     
  19. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    5,729
    2,381
    113
    Male
    Retired Sr. Proj. mgr,
    South
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    For my American watches I use this guy............. Rob Carter, Kingsport TN

    Keith R...
     
  20. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    82,693
    1,611
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I thought I would add some pictures of a correct Edward Howard with sn 309. I sold it about 10 years ago for $10,000 at our national Meeting in Cleveland. The case makes a significant difference.
    CaseBack.jpg Cuvette.jpg Dial.jpg Front.jpg InsideBack.jpg InsideCuvette.jpg Movement.jpg Mvt2.jpg MvtAngle.jpg MvtAngle2.jpg
     
  21. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Ruby Member Sponsor

    Aug 24, 2000
    82,693
    1,611
    176
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    By the way, it is common for the dials to be from Switzerland.
    Dial2Front.jpg Dial2back.jpg
     
  22. RHD

    RHD Registered User

    Feb 17, 2012
    20
    0
    1
    Male
    Attorney
    Arlington
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The original case is truly a thing of beauty. The price for the original package compared to a recased movement is certainly understandable. I now understand better the reaction to the attached chain in my first pictures.
     
  23. John Cote

    John Cote Director
    Director NAWCC Member

    Aug 26, 2000
    4,256
    614
    113
    Photographer
    Midwest USA
    Country Flag:
    Since we are talking about watch prices...I will simply add that Tom McIntyre probably sold his watch at what was generally speaking, the top of a market which has been gong down ever since. Watch values are a matter of speculation but you can be sure that the market is way down from where it was at the last Cleveland National.

    All that said, I am with my friend Ben. These "The Edward Howard" watches are real marvels. Yours is a beautiful watch even if not in its original case. Wear it in good health and welcome to the NAWCC.
     

Share This Page