E. Berger's Electric Time (wall Clock)

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by ClockMogul, Oct 1, 2011.

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  1. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Does anyone know anything about this paticular name that is on the face. It is marked "E. Berger's Electric Time" Clock is about 6ft long and the case is made of solid cherry. has a very early electric motor that drives a pulley to wind the main spring in the mechanism. It looks very early to me, but i cant seem to find out any info on it.


    Thanks, Jerry
    -> posts merged by system <-
    Hopefully I uploaded the picture correctly
    -> posts merged by system <-
    several more pictures
     

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  2. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Hi, Jerry, welcome to the message board. I'm going to move your thread down to the electric clocks forum for better exposure.
     
  3. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    pics
    -> posts merged by system <-
    pic
     

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  4. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Cabinet Close Up
     

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  5. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Lower Case picture
     

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  6. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    I have pretty much looked through the entire section here on electric clocks and from what i am gathering, this has to be one of the earliest electric clocks to be made. This motor is no doubt 1870's or 1880's at latest. I have no clue about the case or mechanism, but i am sure about the electric motor.
     
  7. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #7 eskmill, Oct 1, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2011
    Welcome to the Message Board.

    I have no ideas about E. Berger's timepiece. However, some details about the motor is that it appears to be an early battery motor with six pole pieces on the rotor and three stator field electromagnets arranged at 90 degrees.

    The motor bears a lot of likeness to the motor used in the early Self-Winding Clock company style C movement invented by Chester Pond. (Although his patent drawings show a motor with only two stator electromagnets)

    My thoughts are that your photo is of an early development of a weight driven, electrically rewound timepiece. Likely, as you stated of the period from about 1865-1885.

    I've enlarged a portion of your photo to more accurately show a few of the white iron pole pieces of the rotor.
     

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  8. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Hi Eckmill and many thanks for the welcome. This clock runs on a 1.5 Volt D Cell battery. Also thanks for your input on the clock, This is my very 1st clock i have owned. I am a collector of early electrical technology and i just had to have it. Can you tell me if this is American or? I also could not find a thing on E Berger. Thanks, Jerry
     
  9. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    I just want to thank those whom have been extremely helpful in trying to figure out the paticulars about my clock. I am so grateful to those people. The guy whom i got the clock from had had it for over 40 years and he told me that he tried and tried to find out anything on it and he was not able to. The clock originated over 40 years ago from a antique dealer on Long Island, NY. It has been now in Ohiop for the last 40 some years to one owner until I recently obtained it.
     
  10. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Can anyone provide me with any tips for searching patents on this clock? I have spent the last several days and cant find anything. But..I most likely do not know how to search properly. Thanks, Jerry
     
  11. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    It is of interest that both Chester Pond's E. Berger's battery clock employs a simple electric motor obviously based on a type invented by Paul Froment circa 1848.

    If we look beyond the flywheel the similarities are obvious. One may conclude that Berger's "self winding" clock used an "off-the-shelf" battery motor then available. Similarly, Pond's implementation employed an identical design. The commutating contact assemblies seem to be exactly alike.
     

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  12. Tommy Wylie

    Tommy Wylie Registered User

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    What a marvellous clock! I own a self winding weight driven clock of German origin (maker unknown), which has an electric motor actually built within the wheelwork of the movement. It runs on 12 volts and winds (very noisily) every three hours. It dates from the 1920s/1930s and I have to say it is rather utilitarian in comparison to yours. Is there a Youtube video of your clock in operation?
     
  13. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    I have set the dial in its place so that you can get an idea of what the clock looks like with dial set.
     

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  14. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Just got off of the phone with Robery Cheney of Skinner's Auction House in Boston and according to him, this is a common electric clock as he had sold about 5 or 6 similar ones in there last Clock and Watch Auction..Hmmm.. Sasid with just a little research it would be easy to find out about E. Berger. Said he most likely was a clock distributor..This sure is quite the contrary to everyones elses thinking on this clock. For some reason that is just not adding up to me..
     
  15. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Does he have any pictures he can send you, to compare with yours?
     
  16. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Hi harold, he said it was in there last Clock and Watch Auction held this year. I just dont think those he mentioned could be like this one as I sure would think someone here on the forum would have said something. For some reason, I am just not buying into it.
     
  17. brc

    brc Registered User

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  18. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    I just spent the last 4 hours sifting through all the Skinner's Clock Auction catalogs and i surely did not find a single clock not even remotely similar to the E. Berger's Electric Time. Not sure why Robert Cheney from Skinners said he has sold 5 or 6 very similar clocks to mine and that it was not a "Uncommon" Clock in his words.
     
  19. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Here is another picture of the clock with dial set.
     

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  20. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Picture of beat plate. The beat plate is constructed of 2 pieces of heavy cast bronze with what looks like a guide trak or groove on bottom.
     
  21. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Beat Plate Pic
     

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  22. ClockMogul

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    The pendelum bob at end is extrmely heavy and constructed of heavy brass or bronze..
     

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  23. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    the pictured object is mounted about 1/3rd of the way down the pendelum rod and when mounted in clock, this thing aligns up somehow inside the clock mechanism.

    I still been searching and reading and am having a very difficult time finding out much about this wall time piece.
     

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  24. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    I would like to retract a comment i made here in my posting about Robery Cheney of Skinner's Auction House. I have received an email this am from him and there was some confustion between us about my clock. He happen to have been looking at the wrong pictures and was not looking at the pictures of my E. Berger's Electric Time piece. This clock was also unfamiliar to him and has not seen a clock like this. So sorry about the confusion and misunderstanding on this.
     
  25. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Hi
    It looks like it might actuate a switch or something. Can you
    give a picture of the part in the case that this is associated
    with?
    Tinker Dwight
     
  26. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Hi Tommy, As soon as i get the clock mounted and hung i will try and get a video uploaded so that everyone can see it run. A fellow that is the head of the Electrical Horilogical Chapter is stopping by to see me the end of this month and he said he would help me with the clock. I have no idea how to mount the pendelum etc... I dont want to hurt or damage anything so i will wait for this fellow to pay me a visit. I know the clock works as when i picked it up, it was in proper working order as the guy was operating it on a d cell battery..
     
  27. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    I got me some decent lighting where the clock is laying and here is a close up picture of the time piece's mechanism. Please note the wires are just disconnected from there terminals from when the clock was transported and i have just not reattached them yet to the terminals. Does a closer view give any hints to anything..?
    -> posts merged by system <-
    Here is a slightly better close up of the electric motor that is housed in the cabinet below the clockwork mechanism. Also the wires you see just need to be reattached to the terminal lugs on the motor. This should give you a pretty good idea on what this motor looks like. I am ot sure at all what that wheel or flywheel is on the front of the motor..
     

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  28. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Hi
    Cool clock. I guess we'll need to see that adjustment
    with the pendulum hung. I don't see anything that it
    would go to.
    Tinker Dwight

    I just had a though. Maybe it doesn't attach to anything.
    Maybe it is a fine beat adjustment. The small block would
    shift it weight as it is screwed right or left.
    Like I said, we'll need to wait for the pendulum hanging.
     
  29. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Hi Dwight, There is a small pin that protrudes out the side of that mechanism on the pendelum rod. It is not in place but it goes in the opposite end of the knurled screw unit. Somehow that pin strikes something inside the clock work mechanism.. (I think)..!
     
  30. jeffholz

    jeffholz New Member

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    Hi Jerry,
    I'm Jeff I met you at CoolSpring this week. The clock looks like a mix of many makes, but nothing that I would directly say, yes, it was made by this company. Examples of what I mean- the top of the case looks just like a Self Winding case I have but the clock I have does not show up in any of the SW literature. The radius in some of the wheels look like E Howard; the pendulum bob does not resemble anything American that I've seen but has that over engineered over machined European look. A few close ups of the motor, maybe a view looking down, would show more detail. It is as you said, an absolutely fabulous clock.
    Regards,
    Jeff
     
  31. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #31 eskmill, Oct 14, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2011
    Jeffholz and all: I have followed this thread from the first posting. I was then and am still convinced that "Berger's Electric Time." is and was a concept model perhaps for inclusion with a patent application.

    I believe that it is possible that Chester Pond and his associates within the Time Telegraph Company of 1882 may have obtained the rights to use Berger's idea and copied Paul Gustav Froment's battery motor design in his self winding spring powered battery timepiece.

    Froment's electromagnet motor, Berger's clock motor and Pond's Self-Winding Clock motor (US Patent 308,521 circa 1884) share an undeniable likeness.

    It is a unique and attractively cased battery timepiece of the early electric clock era but there is an almost complete absence of design features of a precision timepiece. Instead, a concept model for a clock that winds itself.
     
  32. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    This is a view of the Top Suspension Mount for the pendelum. Mabe this could add some clue to something.
     

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  33. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Have had a few people asking me about the history of this time piece. I myself have only owned it for about 2 weeks now. The person I had obtained this from had had it himself for over 42 years. He had traveled with a friend to Long Island, NY to a furniture dealer to check out some furniture. The dealer had just got this in the day before they had gone to NY. The guy I got it from bought it and had had it all these years until i was lucky enough to obtain it from him. The guy i had got it from told me that he has looked and looked and even had joined this club 40+ years ago to see what he could find out about the E. Berger's Electric Time piece. he had even less luck then i did getting any information what so ever on it.
     
  34. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Here is a close up shot of the top of the pendelum rod.
    -> posts merged by system <-
    Another view
     

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  35. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    I have been ask by a few that how is the name E. Berger's Electric Time placed on the face dial. Everything to include the numbers are painted on over the top of the porcelain. Nothing is glazed over. So I am assuming Berger used a generic dial and painte this on himself?
     
  36. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #36 eskmill, Oct 16, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
    1. Hand lettering using "india-ink" and a lettering template was a customary means to decorate blank porcelain glazed clock and watch dials.

    2. The pendulum suspension bracket appears to me as having been made-up using a common hardware flange bracket with an insert of brass rod. While effective, it is not of the structure and style associated with substantial precision clocks of the period.

    3. Using some photo editing, I believe with some imagination, one experienced with clocks can visualize the escapement crutch in the composite photo below. The photo series helps reveal the use of the thumbscrew device in the pendulum rod. Tinker Dwight was likely correct in his assessment of the device as a beat adjuster. It is apparently missing the pin that would engage with a slot in the escapement crutch.
     

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  37. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Picture of the top of the clock where the cast brass or bronze battery terminal lugs are located.
     

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  38. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Not sure if the length of the pendelum will turn up any clues but it is about 45 inches long and this does not include the 2 inches of pointed end rod at bottom that sits inside the beat plate..
     
  39. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Had no idea this was hiding behind the chain drive belt. here is what several of you been talking about. (crutch)
    -> posts merged by system <-
    Another close up of crutch assembly
     

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  40. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    tried to get a picture looking down from the top of the electric motor.
     

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  41. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Hi
    It is not clear on that top mount for the pendulum but
    I would say that there would be a simple spring suspension
    with a block at both ends having a pin through them.
    Is there a notch on the mount, on the other side?
    As for the crutch to the pendulum, it may be a pin
    but it also might be a short wire bent in a "U" shape.
    You need to hange the pendulum first before you
    can figure the alignment of the crutch and pendulum.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  42. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    It is a pin that goes in the gizmo on the pendelum rod. I have the pin but when we transported the clock to my home the removed it so that it would not get lost or anything damaged. I also have the (broken) suspension spring for the clock. I am looking forward to this up comming thursday as William Ellison is paying me a visit and hopefully we can get the clock hung and in operation.
     
  43. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Here is a shot of the broken suspension spring. not sure if anything can be made out by this but here it is.
     

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  44. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Looks like the type of suspension that Timesavers refers to as for a Morbier clock. They show 6 different sizes, if you have a catalogue, you can match by size as the pictures are actual size. Otherwise, measure yours and compare with sizes given.
    www.timesavers.com
    This may suggest a European origin for your clock.
     
  45. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    HI harold, Thanks so much for the link, I am sure i will find it very useful down the road. FYI on the Suspension Spring. The guy i got the clock from told me that the suspension spring was not the correct one for the clock but he used it as a temporary. He said it worked ok but was not the correct one for the clock. Thursday I hope to have it hung and possibly running thanks to one of your very kind and generous members.
     
  46. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Someone had recently hought possibly that power terminal/lugs on the top were possibly used for slave units.. I am not sure how that would work as both of those are solid pieces of bronze with 2 terminals in each one. One is for the power coming in and other is the power being supplied to the motor/clockwork assembly. Being one solid piece of bronze, i dont see how you could use the power terminal lugs for both functions of power for the clock and then signal out to slaves etc..? Just a thought here..
     
  47. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    I think you are right, that the terminal is strictly for power to wind the clock. Slaves would require a contact that closed for a couple of seconds every minute to advance them.
     
  48. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    Update on my E. Berger's Electric Time Piece. Just off of the phone with Bill Ellison and he will be down here in NW Ohio on Thursday am to mount, set and hopefully get the unit going. Not sure if i can post youtube video here but will if its possible.
     
  49. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    I'm sure if anyone can figure it out, Bill can. You are in good hands, Jerry:thumb:.
    You can post a link to the video using copy and paste.
     
  50. ClockMogul

    ClockMogul Registered User

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    E. Berger's Electric Time Piece.wmv - YouTube I have uploaded a small video of the clock. Bill Ellison was here nd we were able to hang and mount the clock. He did not have the correct suspension spring as it was a tad to long, so with that we were unable to get the pendelum to swing with the beat plate installed. Applied a battry to the electric motor and it turned. Bill is going to make me the correct suspension spring for the clock. Also the pin/rod that somehow rides in the crutch was broken and not just come out of its holder. Guess these are minor details to getting a clock to work properly? Easy on me about my video as i am far from a cinemaphotographer.. :)
     

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