Dutch Clock About Which I Know Nothing

[Jim DuBois]

So, this showed up in the hands of a friend last week. I know virtually nothing about these clocks as far as makers and the like. I can restore the movement, make the parts, silver the dial parts etc. But I have nothing on the maker, when it was made. And I would like to learn more in its regard.

The case is 9 1/2 feet tall without its finials. Photos will follow as soon as the case shows up. It is in pretty much excellent shape other than it has lost it's finials....my buddy thinks it should have the Atlas and globe in the center and a cherub on each side. Anybody have a source for such parts, new or period?

View attachment 409507

 

[Uhralt]

This is an impressive Dutch clock! The maker appears to be Christiaan Liefmans(?) from Oosterhoud. Unfortunately Google didn't provide any information about him. 10 nested bells for the music box plus a large bell for the strike. I wonder which tune it plays. I wonder also why there are two hammers for each bell. It would be very interesting to hear it chime.

Uhralt

 

[Ralph]

Morpurgo doesn't have him listed in his Netherlands clockmaker list.

They use two hammers, when the note has to be repeated in quick succession. A single hammer can't be re-tripped quick enough..

Jim, you get to work on the nicest stuff.

Ralph

 

[Uhralt]

I have to agree.
Uhralt

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Presumably those are the options around the moon roller...

March
Aria
Mal Broet ?

Can't read the rest.

Seems a high quality thing, somebody even crossed out the ends of the winding arbours.

Latter part of the 18th Century?

 

[jmclaugh]

An impressive clock indeed.

 

[JTD]

T

Presumably those are the options around the moon roller...

March
Aria
Mal Broet ?

Can't read the rest.

Seems a high quality thing, somebody even crossed out the ends of the winding arbours.

Latter part of the 18th Century?

The last word is Gigue, I think.

JTD

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Ah, seen the musical choices better now, so you have a march, an aria, something called a Mal Broet and a gigue. Can't find a google solution to the Mal Broet. Is the selection pointer original or made from a serpentine minute hand?

 

[Jim DuBois]

The case is outrageous. As far as I can tell the serpentine hand for the tune selection seems original as it matches the minute hand in it's handwork/finish and the like. I inadvertently left out one of the more interesting details. The seconds bit featuring what I think is the devil is not a common dial feature. I recall seeing an English lantern with the devil engraved on the dial....to what end would a clock maker / dial engraver use this?

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Lantern clocks with devils on usually, but not always, had angels opposing the devil.

It will be interesting to see the back of the dial to see how all those subsidiaries work.

If it were English I'd be suggesting about 1760. I'm not terribly fond of names on those added cartouche, they are so easily swapped, and this one seems to be screwed on which doesn't look original. It is probably just a repair.

I love longcase with days of the week and months or zodiac signs, it's like a fore runner to a complicated wristwatch.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

The seconds bit featuring what I think is the devil is not a common dial feature. I recall seeing an English lantern with the devil engraved on the dial....to what end would a clock maker / dial engraver use this?

Perhaps it is actually the Greek god Pan (Roman = Faunus). The figure on Tuesday (Dingsgag) could be a representation of Ares (Latin = Mars). The Greek words for Tuesday is hemera Areos (day of Ares); Latin = dies Martis (day of Mars). Similarly, the figure for May might be the Roman Maia, a goddess often associated with growth and Spring. Just speculation, however.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Ah, seen the musical choices better now, so you have a march, an aria, something called a Mal Broet and a gigue. Can't find a google solution to the Mal Broet. Is the selection pointer original or made from a serpentine minute hand?

Stunning clock. Can't wait to see the rest.

Often the "airs" played by clocks were the "pop" tunes of the time. Probably readily identified then, but now the identification of which may now be obscured with the passage of at least a couple of 100 years.

By the way, "gigue" is French for "jig" so that makes sense for a musical selection. Probably something spry and lively?

RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

Perhaps it is actually the Greek god Pan (Roman = Faunus). The figure on Tuesday (Dingsgag) could be a representation of Ares (Latin = Mars). The Greek words for Tuesday is hemera Areos (day of Ares); Latin = dies Martis (day of Mars). Similarly, the figure for May might be the Roman Maia, a goddess often associated with growth and Spring. Just speculation, however.

I like Pan better...I suspect you are correct now that I look at it more carefully....

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Yes, the gigue is a jig, but what is a Mal Broet?

 

[JTD]

I think it may be Mal Broei. These words are not modern today in this connection but you could just about translate them as something like 'a mad lot' or 'a crazy bunch' which may (or may not) have been a popular tune of the day. Perhaps comparable in style with the (in)famous Tarantella.

Just my thoughts.

JTD

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Perhaps it was a type of tune then? The other labels are not tune specific so unlikely that one would be. It gives you the option of a march, an aria, a pop tune, or a jig

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

I think it may be Mal Broei. These words are not modern today in this connection but you could just about translate them as something like 'a mad lot' or 'a crazy bunch' which may (or may not) have been a popular tune of the day. Perhaps comparable in style with the (in)famous Tarantella.

Just my thoughts.

JTD

18th century Dutch "hip-hop"?

RM

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Yes, the gigue is a jig, but what is a Mal Broet?

I wonder whether mal might = tempo (it often signifies time in German, at least); and whether broet might = broad, like the Italian largo. A largo in music signifies a slow, maybe dignified, pace.

More Spekulation.

Just saw JTD’s post. Looking again, the word does seem to be broei rather than broet.

 

[Ralph]

I thought it read "Mal Broek" translates to mold pants or folded pants or something shorts

Where's Ernie Grover when we need him. Maybe P. Hageman will step in.

Ralph

 

[Jim DuBois]

I have never attempted to lay out and pin a drum any more complex than a Westminster chime 4 bell quarter hour strike. That was more than enough. How this work was done in the 18th century with 4 tunes, or 8 tunes or even 12 tunes on one clock is entirely beyond my grasp.....or understanding slightly how it is done today with modern machinery, modern illumination, modern optics makes the 18th century efforts even more impressive.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

I have never attempted to lay out and pin a drum any more complex than a Westminster chime 4 bell quarter hour strike. That was more than enough. How this work was done in the 18th century with 4 tunes, or 8 tunes or even 12 tunes on one clock is entirely beyond my grasp.....or understanding slightly how it is done today with modern machinery, modern illumination, modern optics makes the 18th century efforts even more impressive.

But you need to put it together so you can play for us the Mal Broet/Broei/Broek, etc.

 

[JTD]

I thought it read "Mal Broek" translates to mold pants or folded pants or something shorts

Where's Ernie Grover when we need him. Maybe P. Hageman will step in.

Ralph

I don't see a 'k' there, but you may be right.

JTD

 

[JTD]

But you need to put it together so you can play for us the Mal Broet/Broei/Broek, etc.

Yes, indeed !

JTD

 

[bruce linde]

yes... looking forward to the video so we can see/hear it in action!

 

[brian fisher]

wow! i love those things. definitely not a clock that comes on the market very often. can you make a restoration thread for this?

good meeting you yesterday jim.

 

[P.Hageman]

The case is outrageous. As far as I can tell the serpentine hand for the tune selection seems original as it matches the minute hand in it's handwork/finish and the like. I inadvertently left out one of the more interesting details. The seconds bit featuring what I think is the devil is not a common dial feature. I recall seeing an English lantern with the devil engraved on the dial....to what end would a clock maker / dial engraver use this?

View attachment 409528

Now thats an amazing clock!! High end of the Amsterdam clocks I believe. Congratulations. As to the devil on the dial, I have no idea why they put it there, but on my Sanderson clock there is also a face that looks like a devilish person. Wonder if anyone knows why the did engrave those devilish figures on a dial.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Peter,

Wonder if anyone knows why the did engrave those devilish figures on a dial.

I've no idea why these grotesque masks were used, but they're extremely common on the balance cocks, and sometimes the cases, of 18th and early 19th century watches.



Regards,

Graham

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Hi Peter,



I've no idea why these grotesque masks were used, but they're extremely common on the balance cocks, and sometimes the cases, of 18th and early 19th century watches.

View attachment 409597 View attachment 409598 View attachment 409599

Regards,

Graham

Actually, my recollection is that “grotesques” were frequently & widely used in European arts & architecture since the Middle Ages.

For example, gargoyles on cathedrals. Also other grotesque carvings on churches & other buildings.

They can be found on the pages of illuminated manuscripts, silver, etc.

So, the use here is reflective of that I suppose.

RM

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I think they have been in use since ancient times, in the Greek and Roman empires. They remind me of things as far apart as the Bocca Della Verita in Rome and the Green Man in England.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

I think they have been in use since ancient times, in the Greek and Roman empires. They remind me of things as far apart as the Bocca Della Verita in Rome and the Green Man in England.

Yes, most excellent point!

Also, here a pic of one of the gargoyles on the Notre Dame of Paris:



Reminds me some of the face on the clock.


RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

So, here are some case photos, sorry for the less than excellent photos. The ceiling in this room is 10' tall...so the clock is TALL! With a proper Atlas it may be slightly over 10'.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Very Dutch!

When my Dutch friends have seen my provincial longcase they never like the plain oak cases.

 

[Jim DuBois]

Very Dutch!

When my Dutch friends have seen my provincial longcase they never like the plain oak cases.

I think Dutch clocks are an acquired taste, one I never acquired.....and I will most likely like them even less by the time I get this one back on the road...

 

[brian fisher]

i still think its awesome. i can really appreciate the workmanship that went into both the movement and the cabinet. on the other hand....finding a place to set a 10'+ tall clock is another story.......

 

[brian fisher]

do you happen to have any updates on your progress?

 

[Jim DuBois]

Nothing to report regarding this clock. The owner is still trying to decide what he wants to do. I am hopeful it does not come in here. He has it limping along and running and striking but no music yet....the movement itself has been cleaned in recent years by a reasonably decent repairman it seems....and I don't need clocks to repair / restore / setup / warrantee 1000 miles away.....if you get my drift....