Dueber Case mark - 14K or GF?

mersus99

NAWCC Member
Aug 11, 2005
274
0
16
Maryland
Country
Region
It should be solid gold. If it was gold filled, it would say "gold filled" or "20 years" or "10 years" to designate the thickness of the gold fill.
 

Kent

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Silver Member
Aug 26, 2000
18,540
1,974
113
Country

terry hall

NAWCC Brass Member
Apr 12, 2001
7,106
522
113
Central North Carolina
Country
Region
Is there not a difference in if the anchor is engraved or embossed (raised)?

.
 

Jerry Bryant

Registered User
Mar 7, 2006
384
20
18
71
Country
Region
Wes,

Terry makes a good point, and I will elaborate on that.

In the Shugart book, on page 35 (the page for Solid Gold marks), there is an illustration of your Dueber 14K mark. There is a note beside the illustration that states, "This Mark means 14K Gold. Note anchor is Raised, not Engraved." However, it is interesting to note, on pages 37-38, under, "Gold-Filled Marks", the illustrations for gold-filled Dueber marks do not show the 14K stamping - although there is a notation about the anchor being engraved for the gold-filled case stamping.

At the top of page 35, there is a note that states, "Have your watch case tested to make sure of gold quality or Karat".

I went for six months thinking that I had a solid 14K gold Wadsworth hunter case for my Elgin B.W. Raymond 15j, that turned out to be gold-filled. The fancy Wadsworth case stamping matched the solid gold illustration in the Shugart book's page 35, but I carried this watch until I noticed one day that it had unmistakable brassing starting to show through at the outer edge near the hinges of the front and back lids. Now that will get your attention, and pretty much ruin your day!

Best of luck to you, and I hope that yours is Solid Gold!

Jerry
 

Wes

Registered User
Aug 19, 2002
1,498
0
36
www.pocketwatchsite.com
Country
Region
I do not have the watch in hand and it isn't mine. Just trying to ID/value it for the public. I get a lot of those emails.

Kent's Dueber ad, and the Ehrhardt trademark book leave little doubt that this is a solid gold case.
 

Jon Hanson

Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
17,652
123
63
Boston, Ma.
www.americanhorologe.com
Country
Region
I have seen these in GF--just "feel' the case--GF is stiff.

BTW, there is no such word as "brassing"; either brass is showing or not.
 

Jerry Bryant

Registered User
Mar 7, 2006
384
20
18
71
Country
Region
BTW, there is no such word as "brassing"; either brass is showing or not.
Jon,

You are absolutely correct when you point out that there is no such word as, "brassing". It is a term that cannot be found in any conventional dictionary. However, it is a term which is widely and commonly used to describe the condition in which gold plate has worn off a part, exposing the base metal beneath (usually brass). I have seen, and heard, the term, "brassing" widely used to describe not only worn gold-filled/plated pocket watch cases, but also worn ink pens and metal camera bodies with a brass base metal. However, thank you for your astute observation!

Wes,

Back to the main point; if the anchor mark is raised, I would be comfortable with the assumption that the case is solid 14K gold, without having the gold content tested. If there is also no brass showing, that would be even better!

Jerry
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Kent

Gibbs Literary Award
NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Silver Member
Aug 26, 2000
18,540
1,974
113
Country
I have seen, and heard, the term, "brassing" widely used to describe ...
Yes, and I have seen the term "Montgomery dial" widely used to describe marginal minute dials that are definately NOT Montgomery dials, but just because people use it that way, that doesn't make it right.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jon Hanson

Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
17,652
123
63
Boston, Ma.
www.americanhorologe.com
Country
Region
CORRECT terms need to be used to educate the newer collectors.

"Mint" is a flavor, not a condition! (Coins are minted at the mint)
 

RON in PA

NAWCC Member
May 18, 2005
1,913
10
38
S.E. PA
Country
Region
Just to be contrary, language changes over time and if "brassing" ain't proper today, maybe, next year it will make it into the dictionary.
 

Jon Hanson

Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
17,652
123
63
Boston, Ma.
www.americanhorologe.com
Country
Region
The word makes no sense--it is a non word. An item is either worn through and shows brass or it doesn't!!!
 

Jeff Hess

Moderator
Gold Business Member
Sep 3, 2000
7,151
400
83
Florida
www.ballwatchusa.com
Country
Region
Descriptive words should be left to the describer.

If a something is yellow, I get a perturbed when people (usually my wife or other women) use words like ecru, Marigold, honey, golden, lemon, Ocre etc. But if someone used those terms I would know what they meant and not have cow about it. Or a moo. Or bleat. I would not get all bleaty about it.

If someone said that a car or a painting had a kind of a lemony color, I would not moo. nor get upset. Or get angry. I mean the whole conversation is kind of cheesy. A very meaty conversation but lets get to the fleshy part.

(Meaty means "of a relating to meat")

It is just semantics. As to the use of such words on ebay listings, it is just a matter of brevity. One only has a precious 55 letters to describe your item.

This conversation has gone forward on this board for over 5 years! Enough already.

how could one little insignificant non-word (that we all know the meaning of) cause such a furor?

Lets grow up. Shall we?

only half kidding,
JPH
 

Jon Hanson

Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
17,652
123
63
Boston, Ma.
www.americanhorologe.com
Country
Region
Age has nothing to do with correct English and decriptions.

Coins are minted at the mint; watches are made at watch factories or by watch people.

In order to educate collectors and in hope that future collectors/dealers use STANDARD TERMINOLOGY when describing their goods; words like "minty" ARE VERY MISLEADING TO THE UNINFORMED and actually crossover into another field (numismatics) where the late Dr. William H. Sheldon created the term "mint state" to place a numerical number, along with a basal value, to determine what early coppers were worth decades ago.

Watches/cases are either new or used, crisp (sharp, unworn edges) or worn--let's keep horological terms honest and not create misleading adjectives to 'push' condition and thus prices.
 

Jeff Hess

Moderator
Gold Business Member
Sep 3, 2000
7,151
400
83
Florida
www.ballwatchusa.com
Country
Region
Jon,

thanks for your very well measured and thoughtful response.

I agree that we should try to uphold a higher standard when describing watches.

But as we have discussed ad infinitum on here, none of the various methods and or numerical or verbal systems are perfect. Most of us agree that one of the sytems of a well known Florida dealer fails miserably. ('Superb" to mean a cracked dial..) and Osvaldo Patrizzi's system is way too complicated. Other systems as suggested by one of the coin dealers who used to write books (price guides) are too "coin oriented".

I doubt we will ever agree on one. And as you say, "minty" means from a mint or place of striking or a sweet smelling plant. But as in your example of "crisp" many descriptives are not perfect. "Crisp" has to do with vegetables and potato chips. not watches.

I just think a five year discussion of what may or may not be an acceptable descriptive, especially a colloquial descriptive, are fruitless.
 

Jon Hanson

Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
17,652
123
63
Boston, Ma.
www.americanhorologe.com
Country
Region
The additional PROBLEM WITH "MINTY" IS: WHAT IS "MINTY", WHAT DOES IT MEAN--VERY FINE, EXTREMELY FINE, NEAR NEW, GOOD LOOKING, nice, undented, without edge bruises, no scrapes, no discoloring, what?

Clever sellers have gotten into a habit of "slipping" the grade, using "mint/minty!" It certainly covers a multitude of grades.
 

Jeff Hess

Moderator
Gold Business Member
Sep 3, 2000
7,151
400
83
Florida
www.ballwatchusa.com
Country
Region
It certainly covers a multitude of grades.
True. But so would the word "Crisp". Or Near mint. Or whatever.

The word "minty" means to 99 percent of the folks out there "near mint" kind of like "lemony smell" means kind of a lemon like smell.

Or a cheesy flavor means a flavor that is cheese-like.

Oh well. This is a discussion that is fruitless so I will bow out.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jon Hanson

Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
17,652
123
63
Boston, Ma.
www.americanhorologe.com
Country
Region
"Near mint"-- BUT FIRST we HAVE TO DESCRIBE WHAT IS "YOUR" MINT? ....AND WATCHES ARE "MINT", OR MINTED? THEY ARE NEW, UNUSED, USED, EX FINE, VERY FINE, FINE, VERY GOOD, POOR, DAMAGED, ETC., ETC.

How any intelligent person to refer to a sale's object as "minty" is beyond me. GRADE OR DESCRIBE THE ITEM ACCURATELY AND CORRECTLY. (I wonder what the coins, furniture, and VASE BUYERS WOULD SAY IF THESE WERE DESCRIBED in sales catalogues AS "MINTY?")

Crisp, as in sharpness as to wear. THIS WORD IS A WORD ACCORDING TO THE DICT.; HOWEVER, LEARNED JPH, I DO NOT SEE "MINTY" IN THE D.!

Like I said for the benefit of the newbies, coins ARE MINTED, WATCHES ARE MADE. "Mint" is a flavor and SHOULD NOT BE USED AS A TRAP GRADE TO RAISE the value to RAM IT IN!

The PG is now attempting to grade all components of a watch; just like coins, push the grading standards and raise the price levels--a clever way for dealers to stay in business and folks to profit and, thus, come back for more! :biggrin:
 

oldsugarshaker

New Member
Jan 7, 2012
2
0
0
Jon Hanson;12306 said:
"Near mint"-- BUT FIRST we HAVE TO DESCRIBE WHAT IS "YOUR" MINT? ....AND WATCHES ARE "MINT", OR MINTED? THEY ARE NEW, UNUSED, USED, EX FINE, VERY FINE, FINE, VERY GOOD, POOR, DAMAGED, ETC., ETC.

How any intelligent person to refer to a sale's object as "minty" is beyond me. GRADE OR DESCRIBE THE ITEM ACCURATELY AND CORRECTLY. (I wonder what the coins, furniture, and VASE BUYERS WOULD SAY IF THESE WERE DESCRIBED in sales catalogues AS "MINTY?")

Crisp, as in sharpness as to wear. THIS WORD IS A WORD ACCORDING TO THE DICT.; HOWEVER, LEARNED JPH, I DO NOT SEE "MINTY" IN THE D.!

Like I said for the benefit of the newbies, coins ARE MINTED, WATCHES ARE MADE. "Mint" is a flavor and SHOULD NOT BE USED AS A TRAP GRADE TO RAISE the value to RAM IT IN!

The PG is now attempting to grade all components of a watch; just like coins, push the grading standards and raise the price levels--a clever way for dealers to stay in business and folks to profit and, thus, come back for more! :biggrin:
All this is plain crispy crazy. I have been around older collectors, newer collectors, and just plain idiots. You cannot let this go because you feel the need to be correct possibly all of the time. This really is upsetting behavior to most people. I however find your ongoing persistence quite interesting and amusing. By now if I were a new collector I would have given up because of the arguing and candor. An older collector would laugh and think "hmmm, I have all of these watches so who cares what he thinks". The older collector would then just ignore you and admire his many, many, treasures and with all of the knowledge he has, be it correct terminology or not, would probably win out in the end from all of his years of connections, trading, buying, and plain old "watch speak". That is what I call the terms minty, brassing, black spotting, rubbed off areas, near mint but not in original box, etc. He would be able to dance the dance without the feeling of pretention. He would be listened too and admired for his wisdom. Saying " that's an incorrect term" would only piss off the seller and he would pocket his watch and move on to the collector that did not make him feel like a student. I go with the others, minty, brassing, etc. are terms that will endure for many years, and yes they may be incorrect terms in books, but they are widely used ( I have traveled worldwide) and a lot of watch collectors use them regardless. So until there is a ruling by the greater judges of the pocket watch kingdom, let us use what we must to get the job done and help the original person with the question. The answer to the question is it really gold, is yes it is. It is a solid 14k gold case. FYI Sometimes the case is repaired by someone who is not so honest may use gold filled hinges, or other parts. So yes it is possible to have a gold case show brassing on those areas. Usually it is a newer repair, older gold filled replacement parts have a thicker gold area and do not show through so easily. Another reason your watch showed brassing it maybe it was rose gold and someone re-plated it in yellow gold? You never know.... so I suggest a test or two, and go with the results. Now-a-days, with gold at all time highs, anyone reputable testing to buy a gold watch case, is not going to make a mistake with his test, it would cost the store way too much in the end. The ad again definitely shows it was used as a mark for watch cases. Just thought I would voice my opinion, thanks for the stories, it makes reading these posts interesting. No hard feelings, teacher Jon. :rolleyes:
 

RON in PA

NAWCC Member
May 18, 2005
1,913
10
38
S.E. PA
Country
Region
Oldsugarshaker, I see you are a new poster so you don't know that Mr. Hanson is persona non grata here on the Message Board. Also the thread is over six years old.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
166,182
Messages
1,447,722
Members
86,719
Latest member
Mark21
Encyclopedia Pages
1,101
Total wiki contributions
2,883
Last edit
E. Howard & Co. by Clint Geller