Does it just need a little oil?

[Tee Dubbya]

I have a wind-up Sligh wall clock that's about 30 yrs old. When we moved about a year ago I boxed it in its original packaging where is stayed until this week. I removed the pendulum and placed it in it's place in the packaging. Today when I rehung it I wound it up but the pendulum keeps stopping. I have removed and inspected the suspension spring and it maintains its integrity. No signs of wear or fatigue.
I do remember in the past if I removed the pendulum bob I could see the pendulum hangar clicking quickly back and forth. Now it doesn't do that. It seems to be a bit "sticky(?)" or at least not free-moving like before. I've never oiled the clock it or had it serviced. And prior to moving it was in the same place since the day we bought it. Only taken down occasionally to paint the wall.
I have learned that Sligh sold to Bulova who then sold the grandfather rights to Hermle. I guess this is why when I enter my details into a search engine they do not produce any results.
I have carefully removed the movement from the case, but have not done anything else besides carefully removing the suspension spring as all the research pointed to that as the possible problem.
Here are the details in the attached photo.
Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[R. Croswell]

Your clock obviously is long overdue for cleaning and servicing. Just oiling won't fix it, at least not for long. It may also need bushings. It may also be out of beat from being moved.

RC

 

[Tee Dubbya]

Thank you for that advice.
I think I know how to put the clock in beat and tried that before resorting to inspecting the suspension spring.
If being out of beat was the issue would removing the bob allow the hangar to move more freely, or does being out of beat only magnify the issue when the bob is removed?

 

[Dick Feldman]

Before you put the movement back in the case, send some pictures of the rear plate of the movement.
Sligh was a case maker and never manufactured any movements.
Movements from that era have a reasonable life span of 25-25 years.
Yours is some 30 years old and that should tell you a story.
Failure is normally due to friction caused by wear caused by long operation of the clock.
The normal knee jerk reactions are to clean, oil and adjust.
None of the above are viable solutions to high friction and wear levels in movements.
Clock repair is not, and should not be a matter of guessing.
Your best bet would be to take the clock to a qualified repair person.
Emphasis on qualified as there are a lot of unqualified people claiming to be clock repair people.
Best of luck with your clock,
Dick

 

[Tee Dubbya]

I see. Thanks for that summary Dick. I have a better understanding now.
I've attached some photos and now see the movement is a Hermle.

 

[Willie X]

Learn how to let 'down the springs' and how to 'check for wear'. Knowing these two things will help you access your situation there. Merry Christmas, Willie X

 

[Dick Feldman]

A-Ha!
A "K" date code means the movement was made in 1998.

Same principles apply. Not as old as I predicted but in the 20-25 year range.
Happy holidays,
Dick

 

[Tee Dubbya]

Great information! I'm new to clocks, but am very interested in learning a lot more.
What are some good resources for learning "How to let down the springs" and "Checking for wear"?
Are there some "sticky" or dedicated threads to this on the message board somewhere.
If I do need to replace parts/movement where's a good place to find what I need? Also I am fully willing to consult with an experienced clock shop as advised earlier, but I'm a DIYer at heart with a long history of precision machining of small intricate parts. So this is right up my alley.
Thank you all!

 

[Kevin W.]

Tee you are on the best resource right now to learn clock repair. No need to go else where. Buying some books are recomended, Steven Connover is pretty good, i like his books.

 

[JayKosta]

As a DIYer, my guess is that all the pivot points are dry, or the old oil is caked hard. Having it serviced by someone with experience is the best and safest way to get it running soon.

I don't see any deformation of the pivot holes - that's good.

For DIY, you'd have to remove the mech from the board so you can have access to the other side. Then WITHOUT disassembly use Q-tip or wood toothpicks to clean the old oil/grease from all the visible pivots (both sides front & rear). Special 'clock oil' is available online, or use a good quality light oil. For oiling , only a tiny amount is needed on each pivot - just enough to get 'sucked in' and without exterior drips.

A full pro job could include complete disassembly, cleaning, and oiling.

 

[Dick Feldman]

A full pro job could include complete disassembly, cleaning, and oiling.
[/QUOTE]

From Post #4 of this thread I stated:

The normal knee jerk reactions are to clean, oil and adjust.
None of the above are viable solutions to high friction and wear levels in movements.
Clock repair is not, and should not be a matter of guessing.
Your best bet would be to take the clock to a qualified repair person.
Emphasis on qualified as there are a lot of unqualified people claiming to be clock repair people.

Please know that I have been repairing clocks for some 50 years.
I am not a DIY repair person but am a well qualified and competent repair person.
Many of the repairs I see come from people who have enlisted DIY clock repair people and those repairs have failed.
I am obligated to redo shoddy and amateur repairs quite often and feel those degrade the good name of all clock repair people.
That is how I feel,
Dick

 

[kinsler33]

If you've been machining intricate parts and are good at it, work on the thing yourself. You will need some sort of a mainspring let-down tool to de-fang the movement. Take lots of photographs so you can get things together again. Have a look at timesavers.com, which has parts and tools.

See if the application of some solvent--brake cleaner shouldn't take the lacquer off--will loosen up the pivots. Or, if you can remove the mainspring barrels, let the whole movement soak in gasoline for a few days. Check the end-shake of each wheel, which should shake without any effort if the mainsprings are let down. Clock oil isn't a big deal, but worn pivot holes are, and this can't always be judged by eye.

I learned most of what I know by reading every post I could in this forum. It took me a few days to get through most of it. Ignore discussions about clock oil and pivot polishing.

 

[R. Croswell]

Read all the discussions that you can about pivot hole bushing, pivot burnishing and polishing and oiling. Ignore discussions that advocate soaking whole movements in gasoline and those that pretend that a clock movement can be cleaned without taking it apart.

RC

 

[kinsler33]

Read all the discussions that you can about pivot hole bushing, pivot burnishing and polishing and oiling. Ignore discussions that advocate soaking whole movements in gasoline and those that pretend that a clock movement can be cleaned without taking it apart.

RC

Gasoline works often enough, and in this case it can't be harmful. Charcoal lighter is marginally safer.

The discussions on clock oil and pivots have historically been interminable and never come to any helpful conclusion.

 

[Tee Dubbya]

You guys are all amazing.
This is why I came to this forum! Your comments and tips have piqued my interest and helped me understand.
I will not trust my clock to any amateur but myself. If I get in over my head I'll just ask for more input with pictures as needed.
You've given me a lot of valuable knowledge to get started in an area that was very unfamiliar to me. If you can think of any other helpful advice my ears are open.
Thanks again!

 

[Schatznut]

TD, you've already discovered that various aspects of clock repair and restoration quickly become almost theological.

The Hermle movements like yours are reviled by many on this forum because they wear badly. For some number of years Hermle nickel-plated the pivots, and it was not a quality job. This plating can fail and become like grinding paste that wallows out the pivot holes in the plates. It is almost impossible to have a discussion of Hermle three-train movements without having a discussion about bushings. In fact, your movement has two bushings visible in the photos you posted - in the T2 and C2 positions, which are the ones most likely to have extreme wear. This probably means that someone has already been into it once before. Dick Feldman pointed out this movement has a 1998 date code. No older than it is, unless Hermle started bushing certain positions at the factory (I don't believe they did but I'm no expert on these movements - others will be able to confirm or refute my belief) that it has already had bushings installed and has stopped running again doesn't bode well. On the other hand, if you're extremely lucky you'll find that it doesn't need bushings, only a thorough cleaning before reassembly. This includes an overhaul of all three mainsprings - removal from the barrels, cleaning, relubricating and reinstallation. Make sure you completely let down the tension in the mainsprings before dismantling it; otherwise you may injure yourself and turn the movement into scrap when it comes apart explosively. Note that the mainspring barrels can be removed without splitting the plates.

This will be a challenging movement for a first-timer. Exercise the movement by hand, especially the chime train, so that you understand the relationships between the various cams and levers. Do this over and over so there is no doubt in your mind how it's supposed to work. Pay particular attention to the positions of the cams and levers at the 45-minute position - this is where it will automatically resynchronize the chime train, and if you don't understand what it's doing and why, it will throw you for a loop. This, with lots of pictures, won't guarantee you will get it back together and timed exactly correctly the first time (in fact I almost guarantee that you won't - ask me how I know) but it will give you some breadcrumbs to follow.

To assess the condition of the pivots, with the mainsprings fully let down, rock the mainspring barrels back and forth, while watching for movement in the pivots above them. A little movement is expected, but if there's a lot of motion, you've got worn pivots that should be addressed now if you expect the clock to continue to run for many years following the overhaul.

You might want to buy a loose Hermle movement from an auction site and keep it handy as a reference when you go to put this one back together.

Good luck - there are plenty of people here who will be happy to help as you work your way through it.

 

[R. Croswell]

....... No older than it is, unless Hermle started bushing certain positions at the factory (I don't believe they did but I'm no expert on these movements - others will be able to confirm or refute my belief) that it has already had bushings installed and has stopped running again doesn't bode well.....

The first person to bush a clock is the only one who has a chance to see the original pivot hole as a point of reference. Everyone else has t pray that the first bushing was done properly. I believe Hermle now offers their new movements with or without bronze bushings at the 2nd wheel positions. I don't know when that option first became available.

RC

 

[JayKosta]

If you manually move the crutch L/R does the escapement wheel move - can any amount of running tick-tock be established? When you tried starting the clock, did it make any attempts at tick-tock?

For people familiar with that movement, how does the beat get adjusted? Could it be so badly out of beat that proper engagement 'catch and release' wouldn't be happening?

 

[Tee Dubbya]

Thank you Schatznut, RC, and JayKosta.
We are the original owners of this clock. It has never been in a shop that I can recall. Ignorance on my part.

JayKosta - Yes. I observed the escapement wheel move when I had it off the wall, but only when I moved the crutch manually to the L/R with the bob removed. When assembled and mounted to the wall with the bob hung I can hear the tick-tock and it works for a minute or two before stalling.

It could very well be severely out-of-beat. On a side note - I also have an original "August Schwer" Black Forest Cuckoo Clock my son bought while he was in Germany and had it shipped to the USA. I am mentioning it because I did have to reset the beat on it. I had to keep it hung a little crooked to stay running until I learned what I needed to do to rectify it. My first venture in clock service. Hahaha. I'm sure we'll be discussing that one in another thread later. It survived the move perfectly and needed no pendulum speed tweaking when I hung it up.

I will continue to review all of this very helpful info and report back my findings.

Thanks and MERRY CHRISTMAS / HAPPY HOLIDAYS to all!

Terry

 

[JayKosta]

My 'amateur way' of determining beat is to watch the pendulum travel immediately AFTER the tick-tock - and to get the 'over-travel' equal for both directions. Some 'tinkering' is needed to make sure it runs through the times when the strike, chime, and moon dial mechanisms are involved. I think I have more accuracy watching the pendulum than listening for a regular cycle.

 

[Schatznut]

TD, if you're the original owner of this clock, then I've learned something here - since there are bushings in the key wear areas and nobody has been into it before, they had to be installed at the factory. If that's the case, then it's far more likely that a good cleaning will return it to operational condition.

 

[Mike Mall]

TD, if you're the original owner of this clock, then I've learned something here - since there are bushings in the key wear areas and nobody has been into it before, they had to be installed at the factory. If that's the case, then it's far more likely that a good cleaning will return it to operational condition.

I've seen reference to these pivots in past discussions, about bronze vs brass bushings.
Mark Butterworth gave a little history in #37 here;

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/brass-or-bronze-bushings-whats-your-preference-and-why.112904/

 

[Schatznut]

I've seen reference to these pivots in past discussions, about bronze vs brass bushings.
Mark Butterworth gave a little history in #37 here;

https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/brass-or-bronze-bushings-whats-your-preference-and-why.112904/

Thanks for the link, Mike - if anyone is going to know about these, it's Mark Butterworth. And it's interesting that another theological debate was going on in that thread - brass vs. bronze bushings. Mark's Butterbearings are an interesting solution to the problem in older movements, as they take the variable of the damaged pivot plating completely out of the equation.

 

[R. Croswell]

My 'amateur way' of determining beat is to watch the pendulum travel immediately AFTER the tick-tock - and to get the 'over-travel' equal for both directions. Some 'tinkering' is needed to make sure it runs through the times when the strike, chime, and moon dial mechanisms are involved. I think I have more accuracy watching the pendulum than listening for a regular cycle.

Setting the beat by looking for equal overswing is an interesting approach. The usual way is to tilt the clock in both directions until the ticking becomes very uneven and look for the position between the extremes where it seems most even, If the clock is then level it is in beat. One of the problems with setting the beat "by ear" is that if the drops off of (or if you prefer on to) the entrance and exit pallets are not equal the sound can easily be confused with being out of beat. The escapement should be setup for equal drops before setting the beat. Unfortunately, incorrect instruction is often given here and online to maximize the "lock" which all but guarantees that the drops will not be equal.

A direct way to set the beat is with the clock not powered and the pendulum at rest, mark the resting position. Very, very, slowly move the crutch left r right just until an escape wheel tooth is released (the escapement ticks). If the clock is in beat, the crutch will need to be moved exactly the same distance from the unpowered at rest position of the pendulum.

You said, "Some 'tinkering' is needed to make sure it runs through the times when the strike, chime, and moon dial mechanisms are involved". If this clock is getting normal power to the escapement, and has a normal amount of overswing, it should not require "tinkering" to keep it running through the strike/chime cycle even if it is a little out of beat. I suspect that you have some power issues going on here, most likely due to wear, lack of lubrication, and accumulated dirt.

Regarding brass vs bronze bushings, typically bronze bushings are expected to wear less, but regular pivots wear more. If you go with bronze bushings, also consider going with hardened pivots.

RC

 

[Willie X]

Yes, this clock came with bronze bushings and hard steel pivot inserts on all three 2nd wheel arbors.
Last I checked, the non bushed movements were still available in a 6x pack. I suppose this is done to cut cost for people who want to cut cost?

Happy New Year, Willie X

 

[Mike Mall]

Thanks for the link, Mike - if anyone is going to know about these, it's Mark Butterworth. And it's interesting that another theological debate was going on in that thread - brass vs. bronze bushings. Mark's Butterbearings are an interesting solution to the problem in older movements, as they take the variable of the damaged pivot plating completely out of the equation.

I agree - I had to laugh when I saw Mark Butterworth accused of having prejudiced opinions on repair of movements, because he sells new movements as the major part of his business.
He sells a line of his own bushings, and the Butterbearings - so how can that make any sense?

 

[R. Croswell]

I agree - I had to laugh when I saw Mark Butterworth accused of having prejudiced opinions on repair of movements, because he sells new movements as the major part of his business.
He sells a line of his own bushings, and the Butterbearings - so how can that make any sense?

We haven't heard much about Butterbearings lately. I think they have been around long enough now that we should be hearing how they are holding up and if anyone is still installing them.

RC

 

[Mike Mall]

We haven't heard much about Butterbearings lately. I think they have been around long enough now that we should be hearing how they are holding up and if anyone is still installing them.

RC

I have installed them in 4 movements, in various positions 10 or 11 years ago.
I've also installed a couple more recently, I haven't seen any problems so far.
But 10-11 years is probably a fairly short period - in clock repair expectations.
I have oiled 2 of the movements, (preventative maintenance,) and one just sits.
One I should make a visit to, before it does need a tear down.

 

[Tee Dubbya]

Any recommendations on any other tools that would be good to have besides a letdown helper?

 

[JayKosta]

A 'needle point' oiler, or just dip a toothpick / pin into oil container to get 'just a drop' to apply to the pivot / oil sink.
For DIY working on movements, I place them on a small cardboad box so the mech is not resting directly on tabletop.
Screwdriver with tip that holds the screw.
WRITE down the location of each part / screw that is removed. Draw 'witness marks' around the outer edge of mech before remove - to know exactly where to reinstall. On old clocks you might find many 'previous location' screw holes, and a variety of screw sizes and types.

My method is to do the minimum amount of disassembly possible. I'd rather do multi re-do's until I'm satisfied - not go beyond my limitations and end with another box marked 'misc clock parts'.
PRO WAY - know what you're doing, and do a complete fix the first time.
AMATEUR - go slow, do no harm, re-do is learning and experience.

 

[POWERSTROKE]

My method is to do the minimum amount of disassembly possible. I'd rather do multi re-do's until I'm satisfied - not go beyond my limitations and end with another box marked 'misc clock parts'.

This is going to get old real quick.

 

[R. Croswell]

This is going to get old real quick.

Yes it is! Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome is the well-known definition of what?

RC

 

[Schatznut]

JK, let's do a thought experiment. When you take your car to your mechanic for maintenance and repair, do you pay to just have it patched up the minimum amount possible, or do you pay to have it repaired properly, including replacing all questionable parts? Or put a different way, do you expect your mechanic to do the quickest, cheapest job, or do you expect the job to be done right so that your car is returned to you with the expectation it will operate reliably for a long time?

Clocks are no different. You make the choice.

 

[Mike Mall]

Any recommendations on any other tools that would be good to have besides a letdown helper?

Here is a sticky on the subject.
https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Encyclopedia-Subjects/Clock-Repair/Clock-Repair-Tools

 

[JayKosta]

This is going to get old real quick.

My point is that for a newbie amateur DIYer (and that includes me) it makes sense to go slow. Working on my own clocks is not something that needs to be accomplished quickly, I can take plenty of time and re-do when necessary.
Yes, there are different expectations from a clock repair pro, but I don't think that is the situation in many cases regarding individuals asking about their personal clock that needs some minor work.

 

[POWERSTROKE]

My point is that for a newbie amateur DIYer (and that includes me) it makes sense to go slow. Working on my own clocks is not something that needs to be accomplished quickly, I can take plenty of time and re-do when necessary.
Yes, there are different expectations from a clock repair pro, but I don't think that is the situation in many cases regarding individuals asking about their personal clock that needs some minor work.

It's best to take the movement and learn it inside and out until you can almost do it with your eyes closed.

 

[R. Croswell]

Yes, there are different expectations from a clock repair pro, but I don't think that is the situation in many cases regarding individuals asking about their personal clock that needs some minor work.

I do not believe that to be true. Although there may some small differentness in expectations, the "pro" and the first time DYI experimenter have the same basic outcome desire - turning a non-working clock into a reliable working clock. The difference is that the beginner believes that that there has to be some minor problem that can be fix with simple hand tools or adjusting something that has been fine for the past 100 years or giving it a quickie cleaning without taking it apart and oiling it, lots of oil, can solve the problem. The pro knows from experience that a decades old clock that has been sitting up for years very rarely has a "minor problem" and almost always has significant wear and needs to be disassembled for proper cleaning and cannot be made to run reliably without correcting the points of wear and that oiling alone will not fix the problem.

But still we have amateurs here and on you-tube advocating intact cleaning and other, often damaging, quickie fix methods that, in the long run, often just make it harder for someone else to do the repair properly. Botched bushing installations ranks near the top of that list. So how can they claim success? The answer is quite simple. Consider both ends of the clock. At the one end we have the power source (mainspring or weight), at the other end we have the pendulum. The pendulum does not run the clock, it only regulates how fast the clock runs. Power flows to each wheel and to each pinion in turn to the escape wheel. The escape wheel teeth push the verge which moves the crutch which pushes the pendulum. When enough power gets to the pendulum to cause it to swing wide enough that another escape wheel tooth is released the clock runs. So it becomes a power flow equation. Each pivot hole, each pivot, each wheel meshing with a pinion, each escape wheel tooth sliding against a verge pallet face, each spring coil sliding against the next, pretty much every moving part in the time train drains a little power in the form of friction. When the power loss due to friction prevents the pendulum from getting enough power, the clock stops. One does not need to reduce the friction to zero to make the clock run, indeed that would be quite impossible. But if one can reduce the friction just a little, the equation is balanced, and the clock runs, and success is perceived even of it is to be short-lived. So just oiling, or just a partial cleaning, or just a little of anything else, may reduce the friction enough to get it started again and the beginner is happy and runs to tell the rest of the world about his version of clock repair. The pro knows that the clock "fixed" this way probably isn't running as well as it could be and before long it will be back on the bench again.

RC

 

[Schatznut]

RC, that's the best synopsis of how and why clocks run or don't run, and why repairs are successful or unsuccessful, I've ever read.

 

[Tee Dubbya]

You might want to buy a loose Hermle movement from an auction site and keep it handy as a reference when you go to put this one back together.

Good luck - there are plenty of people here who will be happy to help as you work your way through it.

View attachment 742043

What is a good resource to find a spare movement? Where do you guys shop?

 

[R. Croswell]

What is a good resource to find a spare movement? Where do you guys shop?

Sooner or later, everything turns up on www.ebay.com

 

[Tee Dubbya]

As a DIYer, my guess is that all the pivot points are dry, or the old oil is caked hard. Having it serviced by someone with experience is the best and safest way to get it running soon.

I don't see any deformation of the pivot holes - that's good.

For DIY, you'd have to remove the mech from the board so you can have access to the other side. Then WITHOUT disassembly use Q-tip or wood toothpicks to clean the old oil/grease from all the visible pivots (both sides front & rear). Special 'clock oil' is available online, or use a good quality light oil. For oiling , only a tiny amount is needed on each pivot - just enough to get 'sucked in' and without exterior drips.

A full pro job could include complete disassembly, cleaning, and oiling.

OK. I don't want to start another "oil war". We have our share of those.
Two "types" of oil are mentioned: Special "clock oil" and "a good quality oil". Is there a difference?

 

[shutterbug]

A synthetic oil that is neither too thin nor too thick. There's a lot of wiggle room there, and you'll find lots of suggestions using the search function. It all comes down to what works for you.

 

[Tee Dubbya]

To satisfy my curiosity I contacted a clock sales and service shop that's been in business about 60 years.
$275 for clean and service. To replace the movement ~$700 +/-. And they have a 10-12 week backlog.
My Clock Repair Basics by Conover and clock cleaning and oil kit arrive today. Reading will be first!

 

[POWERSTROKE]

Maybe someone on here with 50+ or even more years experience can walk you through the process