Does any one recognize this movement?

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by jboger, Oct 12, 2019.

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  1. jboger

    jboger Registered User

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    For the price I paid I was willing to pay for an education. I think the movement may be in the wrong case, but haven't examined it closely enough to come to that definite conclusion.

    I don't recognize the movement. It seems to be some sort of small strap movement. The verge is almost certainly the wrong one. I have not cleaned or taken this movement apart yet. It would be great if someone recognized the movement and a possible maker.

    There is a paper plastered to the backboard, but nothing was printed on it. Over this, it looks like Silas Terry pasted his own label. There is also a watchmaker's label pasted to the backboard. I have both top and bottom doors. The bottom tablet is reverse painted but has lost about 50%.

    IMG_0534.jpg IMG_0535 (1).jpg
     
  2. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    #2 Jim DuBois, Oct 12, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
    I think it may well be a movement by Marshall and Adams.

    marshall and adams.JPG marshall andadams movement.JPG
     
  3. jboger

    jboger Registered User

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    Jim: Inclined to believe that too. Do you recognize the movement? Is it American?

    Here are some more pictures. Maybe the dial is original to the movement?

    IMG_0536.jpg IMG_0537.jpg IMG_0538.jpg
     
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  4. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    The same basic movement in an S.B. Terry clock is shown on page 187, figs. 94A-B, in Roberts and Taylor's book, The Contributions of Joseph Ives, etc. The clock has a similar dial.
     
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  5. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Steven, I think you are correct. It is not a common version of movement by S.B. Terry. That was my first take, that it was just as its label suggests, but my file copy of the Marshall and Adams popped up. So, now the question becomes did Marshall & Adams use or copy an SB Terry movement? Nice find jboger. S.B. Terry clocks still command a bit of a premium price, even today.
     
  6. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    #6 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Oct 12, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
    I believe you have an absolutely WONDERFUL original clock!!!

    The movement is a strap brass front plate/solid back plate movement shelf clock made by "Silas B. Terry, Horologist" as is stated on I believe the absolutely correct label. Love the brass disk seconds bit which SBT used on other clocks with different movements, too. You'll find other examples of SBT empire clocks with that seconds bit in the references listed below.

    See Roberts' Joseph Ives book, 2nd edition, page 187. Again, note the dial.

    Also see Chris Bailey's article:

    https://docs.nawcc.org/Bulletins/2000/articles/2008/374/374_286.pdf

    Here's the relevant movement pic and caption:

    sbt movement.PNG sbt movement 2.PNG

    Jim is correct in that Marshal and Adams and then E.W. Adams of upstate NY made a very similar movement. See this thread where I discuss this:

    Oh gee whiz...

    Also see:

    https://docs.nawcc.org/Bulletins/1980/articles/1988/254/254_239.pdf

    Scroll down to page 241.

    Take a look at:

    https://docs.nawcc.org/Bulletins/2010/articles/2010/385/385_201.pdf

    Both show other SBT movements with the same seconds bit.

    For a similar case see Roberts' and Taylor's Eli Terry book, 2nd edition, page 322. Also note the dial and the label. That's what SBT did. Pasted that style of label on a plain brownish paper backboard covering. He did the same in other styles of clocks with different labels. Right as rain.

    My apparently clueless good friend, you have a horological treasure. A survivor in what appears to be original finish.

    Dust it off and admire.

    RM
     
  7. jboger

    jboger Registered User

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    Then it was worth the 80-mile drive and the wait until the auctioneer got around to it. The clock was in the back of a barn-like building in Shrewsbury, PA. The doors were off, the weights were out. Yes, it has a solid back plate and a seconds hand. the plates are heavy brass, at least heavier than the typical strap movement. The case is of very solid construction. The pulleys are not wood; they are brass. They too look undisturbed. The tablet is of a building in London. I'll look it up. Unfortuantley the building has flaked away.

    The verge is wrong. Is that something someone of ordinary mechanical ability can replace? I won't be able to get to this clock for awhile. I still need to reassemble the MItchell groaner I got two weeks ago. I guess I've been lucky the last couple of times.

    John
     
  8. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Tentatively, they copied, which is what RM suggests. Two things I note, and I don't want to make too much of them because I haven't the experience with these movements, are the different orientations of the rivets on the upper cross straps of the Terry and the Marshall & Adams movements, and the difference in the number of rivets holding on the small side straps on the left side of the movements. Maybe not significant, however.
     
  9. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    :???: :???: :???:

    On what basis do you say the verge is wrong?

    From what I can see, the escape wheel is correct. See the pic of the movement I've posted.

    Don't go changing things that shouldn't be changed. This is a scarce clock.

    RM
     
  10. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    At the risk of belaboring things, here's another example that I consider vastly inferior to yours:

    sbt 3.jpg

    Unlike yours, all shiny refinished, repop glass. Crest is quite artistic but a replacement and IMCO, not correct. Also, back board bereft of plain paper lining with the overpaste Silas B. Terry, Horlogist label.

    HOWEVER, note dial and it has your movement also with that seconds bit:

    sbt4.jpg

    Your long trip then wait I think was time well spent.

    RM
     
  11. JTD

    JTD Registered User

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    The tablet is a puzzle. There is indeed a Knowsley Hall in the UK, and from what remains of the picture, it looks right. However, it is not in London.
    Knowsley Hall is a very large 'stately home' not far from Liverpool, which is a long way from London. I wonder if the table maker didn't know, or thought that London would sound more impressive than Liverpool for the customer. (You can look it up on line if you want to see pictures).

    I see the words 'We aim to please' on the lower part of the tablet. I wonder who is 'speaking'?

    JTD
     
  12. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    There are wooden works clocks with stenciled splats that incorporate the “We Aim to Please” phrase, too. I have a Terry transition clock that I have posted previously with that. Used on clocks by others as well. Don’t believe I have seen it used on a tablet before. Probably was a statement by the maker assuring satisfaction with the clock to the buyer.

    The Terry transition I mentioned above also has a tablet depicting an English manor house. If I have time will try to repost pix at some point. Years ago had a Hoadley with a tablet depicting Knowlesly Hall. One of those clocks I kick myself for not keeping.

    This clock just keeps getting better.

    RM
     
  13. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    Usually this is posted in restrooms here in the USA. "We aim to please. You aim too, please."
     
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  14. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    It's meant as a joke, I do see it frequently, didn't know how well it translates.
     
  15. jboger

    jboger Registered User

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    The discussion has been very interesting. Yes, Knowsley Hall is not in London. Don't know why I thought that. I looked it up on Wikipedia. The great house still stands and is still owned by the same family for hundreds of years. The hall is rented out for conventions, weddings, etc.I can not reconstruct what the tablet looked like as too much of the house is gone. But perhaps the tablet was copied from a print ca. 1830 or so.

    I found this listing in an 1860 Baltimore city directory: Ostendorf Anthony, watchmaker, 120 Saratoga

    The reference is: Full text of "Woods' Baltimore city directory (1860)" and then did a "Find" on "Ostendorf". The name occurs frequently. The town of Shrewsbury, Pa, is on the Maryland/Pennsylvania border north of Baltimore. So perhaps the clock has not wandered too far from home.

    The dial is attached in a rather cumbersome fashion to the case and not so easily removed.

    Something does not seem "right" about the verge. The escape wheel is fine. But a rocking of the pendulum rod makes the second hand go backwards. Perhaps the verge is flipped over to the wrong side? I don't want to start taking this apart as I have too many things in disassembled states; I don't want to add to them.

    But I will take some more pictures today, of the back, of the dial and how it is attached.
     
  16. JTD

    JTD Registered User

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    I suppose you thought 'London' because that is what it says on the tablet. That is the puzzling thing.

    JTD
     
  17. jboger

    jboger Registered User

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    Yes, that is why I thought that. Later, after returning home with the clock, I looked the great house up and found that it was near Liverpool only to forget that the tablet stated London.
     
  18. jboger

    jboger Registered User

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    And some pictures of the back. I forgot to take pictures of the dial and how it is attached to the case; that'll be tomorrow. There is the remnants of what looks to be an old newspaper on the back.

    IMG_0567.jpg IMG_0568.jpg IMG_0569.jpg
     
  19. jboger

    jboger Registered User

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    I sent my brother a picture of my Knowsley Hall / London tablet and instructed him to help me find prints from the 1830s that could help us reconstruct what my tablet originally looked like. I had already found a number of prints of Knowsley Hall, none of which seemed to match my tablet, but he found something else: a picture of a Silas Hoadley clock that had recently sold at auction. The tablet on this clock clearly depicts Knowsley Hall, viz. the colonnaded facade. It too also mislabels the location as London and not Liverpool. I believe I know which print this tablet was based on, although I imagine the artists took liberties where they placed trees and such. Anyway, here is a picture of a Silas Hoadley upside-down clock with a Knowsley Hall / London (sic) tablet.

    12639_7849738.jpg
     
  20. jboger

    jboger Registered User

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    I've been checking around for other clocks with Knowsley Hall tablets. I've found two more on the NAWCC clock forum. All are labeled London. It would seem tablets depicting Knowsley Hall are relatively common if compared to most other tablets. Counting mine, I now know of four.
     
  21. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    The tablet is great, I have seen it a number of times, I have owned a Hoadley “upside down” ww with that tablet, I have seen, have owned, or do own clocks, ww & brass, with buildings from the UK, it’s not unusual or perplexing. By all means continue your research into it & please do share your findings with us!

    I believe many of these structures to be long gone as once wealthy families went into decline during the 19th century as did their stately homes resulting in their contents being dispersed @ auction & the structures being razed with a paucity of record left of their existence. Of note, architectural features (occasionally entire grand rooms) of some of these homes were salvaged & incorporated into the grand homes of “Robber Barons” & other wealthy Americans. Some exist as room settings in museums like the MFA, Boston.

    No doubt the tablet really contributes to the wonderfulness of your find but ultimately it is NOT the attribute that makes the clock scarce & wonderful.

    Again, please let us Knowsley (har, har) what you find. As I have said before, it’s what makes antique clocks all that more interesting.

    RM
     
  22. jboger

    jboger Registered User

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