Do all Peter Bower clocks have hedgehogs?

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by novicetimekeeper, Aug 8, 2019.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I suspect that they don't, thought I don't think that guarantees this is one.

    He made a lot of clocks, of that there is no doubt, and and although most are signed with cursive script not all, so the chapter ring is not necessarily a problem. He always used the same spandrels, and this has them. He always used a wooden pulley, this has one. He used iron posts in his movements, again this has them.

    It also has the same shaped collets I have seen on other Bowers.

    I have always wanted one, missed out on a rare alarm one a while back but that went for loads.

    This one not so much.

    A striking 30 hour grandfather clock in oak case, with square brass and silver dial witted with a

    DSC_1369.JPG DSC_1370.JPG DSC_1375.JPG DSC_1371.JPG
     
  2. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  3. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    3,646
    339
    83
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I don't know I understand your question about the hedgehog. Maybe I don't understand your question because I'm not a native speaker. Can you explain what you mean, where is the hedgehog supposed to be?

    Uhralt
     
  4. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 31, 2005
    9,469
    116
    63
    Male
    Industry Specialist
    Launceston Tasmania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I am a native speaker (all be it from one of the Colonies ;) ) and I am lost as well in regards to the hedgehogs.
     
  5. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Peter Bower carved hedgehogs into the hammer stops on his posted frame clocks. This one doesn't have one.
     
    leeinv66 likes this.
  6. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 31, 2005
    9,469
    116
    63
    Male
    Industry Specialist
    Launceston Tasmania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    That explains why we couldn't see it :D
     
  7. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Been trying to find a pic of an example
     
  8. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Knew I would have one somewhere

    P1390827.JPG
     
  9. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Mine has earlier design features than that, perhaps hedgehogs came later.
     
  10. zedric

    zedric Registered User

    Aug 8, 2012
    890
    97
    28
    I still can’t see a hedgehog on that one...

    Where should I be looking?
     
  11. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The hammer stop has a mouth and an eye on the horizontal part. Some of them have holes in to signify the spines.
     
  12. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I have just got back from collecting the clock, I am pretty sure this is right and in its original case. People keep talking about Bower's two part pendulum but nobody shows you a pic of what that means.

    I think this is the famous two part pendulum.

    DSC_1386.JPG
     
  13. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    3,646
    339
    83
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I was wondering why there was a carved horizontal line in that hammer stop. I guess that's the mouth? Peter Bower's hedgehog looks surprisingly abstract for his time...

    Uhralt
     
  14. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    To be fair that's the least hedgehog looking, well apart from mine. Yes that's the mouth, you can see an eye too. No spines on this one. Perhaps it was something he developed into. Mine has earlier collets. It also has very simple engraving, I originally thought mine was later but perhaps earlier, before hedgehogs, before employing an engraver.
     
  15. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    4,652
    548
    113
    Country Flag:
    The overall basic case configuration appears to be consistent with the other examples you posted. However, the use of the decorative cut-out frieze under the cornice that is present on your clock seems to be a rather distinctive feature uniting these cases. Makes one wonder if they were made by one cabinet making shop or maker. Is its use a regional characteristic?

    I find the use of the cut-out frieze rather charming. The other examples posted share what appears to be a nearly identical what I would call a "berry and vine" cut-out pattern. Their similarity makes me wonder if a template was used. That on yours is rather different and I actually like it much better.

    RM
     
  16. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yes I prefer it, though it makes me think of Welsh love spoons and some Northern provincial makers rather than a Wiltshire clock.

    I think there are too many similarities to ignore, the more time I spend with it the more I think it right.

    It has a softwood mask to the hood but that seems common to other cases.

    It has a wooden sliding bolt to the hood door catch. I have never seen one before. The cabinet maker has worked on a Bower before I think, he may have seen one. I also emailed a Wiltshire clock specialist but have not heard back yet.

    It is such a shame the backboard has gone, I have not got a suitable replacement, I hope the cabinet maker has. It is a 250mm board, the original would have been smooth inside and adzed outside, won't get that again.

    I have found something interesting on the back of the dial, the initials RS in a cursive script. Dialmaker?
     
  17. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    4,652
    548
    113
    Country Flag:
    Yes, Welch love spoon!

    RM.
     
  18. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    here is the wooden hood door catch, a first for me. Usually they have been removed as no longer necessary but all the ones I have seen have been either a wooden turnbuckle or an iron sliding bolt. I am hoping I will find that others know of this type of catch on Bower cases.

    DSC_1387.JPG
     
  19. gleber

    gleber Registered User

    Jun 15, 2015
    1,451
    141
    63
    Male
    Underwater Robotics Expert
    Downingtown, Pennsylvania USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Okay guys... I'm lost. Can you point out the frieze, and I don't understand how the door catch works. I feel like we're speaking different languages, but the words look like they are spelled correctly. o_O

    Thanks,
    Tom
     
  20. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    To paraphrase Eric Morecambe they are all the right words but not necessarily in the right order.

    The bit above the door is usually called a fret, but it is not a blind fret, as it cuts right through, but it does not go through to the inside where the bell is, so it is really more accurately a frieze.

    On English longcase, you must remember that they were originally inordinately expensive playthings of the uber rich, think bugatti veyron, ferrari etc. They were also originally the timekeeper for the house, so the case was locked to prevent access by prying hands, and to save on locks the lock was in the trunk door with an internal bolt release for the hood door. (earlier still there was no hood door but a catch and the hood went vertically up)

    This idea continued as the price of clocks came down and they were more widely seen in provincial homes. A key for the trunk door and a catch engaging with a hook or loop on the inside of the hood door that could only be released once the trunk door was open.

    If you expand the pic you will see an upright "bolt" which is a trapezoidal cross section running up in a slide. That engages with a loop (now missing) on the hood door.
     
  21. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Have you ever seen those horizontal slots in the mask around the dial seen when the door is open? The hook or loop goes through there.
     
  22. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  23. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
    4,652
    548
    113
    Country Flag:
    #24 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Aug 10, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
    I have seen arrangements like this, at least conceptually, on antique American furniture where a metal lock secured the case piece, e.g., the chest, cupboard, desk etc. Once unlocked, one had access to the interior. This then permitted access to a secondary locking device or devices. These might take a number of forms. For example, a wooden slide (acting like a bolt lock) as here, pin, or even a spring latch (when pressed would unlock). These might secure drawers, partitions or compartments or even secret draws/compartments. The last is often a feature of the interiors of antique desks and secretaries. I once owned a blanket chest where under the till you pressed a wooden spring lock that allowed a "secret" drawer to open. The blanket chest had a traditional metal lock which had to be opened first to access the drawer.

    RM
     
  24. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    The vertical sliding hoods have a sort of spoon shaped end spring that you reach up and depress I believe. I have never seen one, all the vertical sliding hoods I have seen (which isn't many) have been converted to horizontal sliding hoods.
     
  25. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,083
    292
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Why is that a hedgehog, rather than a dragon or a horse?
     
  26. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Dragons were not much seen in 18th century Wiltshire. Horses, yes, and he was a blacksmith after all. However they are always called hedgehogs, and some look much more like it than others.
     
  27. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

    Feb 18, 2004
    3,395
    135
    63
    Male
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    You will see some really elaborate "Hedgehogs" on 17th century lantern clocks. I've seen a couple photos that look like sea serpents. Not sure if already mentioned.
     
  28. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I've seen a few that look like crocodiles.
     
  29. tracerjack

    tracerjack Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 6, 2016
    774
    46
    28
    Female
    Lodi, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Well, for my two cent opinion, the lack of a hedgehog isn't enough to counter the rest of the list you mentioned as being his trademark work. I'd say you have a Bower.
     
    novicetimekeeper and DeanT like this.
  30. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,083
    292
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hey buddy, that ain't no hedgehog with a snout like that. I seen hedgehogs and they got little bitty pointy snouts. Now if there's a tradition that every caricature this guy produces is to be called a "hedgehog" no matter what it looks like, OK. But absent that, it ain't a likeness of a hedgehog. I'll swear to that. :confused:
     
  31. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I agree, it is the least hedgehog like one I have seen apart from mine, but I struggled to find a pic. They are all called hedgehogs, some of them are much more convincing. I have seen a lot but didn't realise I should be storing the pics!
     
  32. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,319
    1,085
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Possibly a reference to the mythical 'Great Furze-pig of Hale Purlieu' said to have roamed the woods in the area terrorising the inhabitants in the 12th century. A possible descendant was Spiny Norman.
     
  33. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Did you just make that up?
     
  34. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Is Furze used in Wilts/hants? I thought it was a Dorset word.
     
  35. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,319
    1,085
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    You may think that, I couldn't possibly say . . .
     
  36. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Peter Bower has returned from his travels, well the case, the dial and movement did not leave. I am 100% sure of the authenticity of this clock now, the two part pendulum has been identified as original, the lack of cursive script would suggest an early clock but I'm not sure about that, perhaps he just wanted to save on engraving, the spandrels do not suggest early Bower.

    The case has cost way more than the original purchase price but as that was so low it all works out, I think this is now a worthy addition to the collection. The case has a replacement backboard, some of the worm damage repaired, the brasso staining removed, a extra bit added to the plinth front panel to make up for the shrinkage which had torn the case apart, the strange box construction in the hood removed and a flat top let in to match the original design and allow the decorative soundfret to work.

    The whole thing refinished sympathetically the old oak just glows, sadly my pics don't do it justice. (excuse the dust too)

    We tried to find a place in the house light enough to photograph.

    I was discussing with Matthew, my partner, about the similarity of the fret to Welsh lovespoons which makes it seem a much more Northern clock. It was only when I explained what they were that I realised there me be more in it than I thought. Welsh love spoons were, I believe, tokens giving to newly wed couples. Perhaps this is a marriage clock, plenty of clocks were given to couples in the latter parts of the 18th century. Some makers had a bit of a marketing thing offering them with nameplates on the dials, sometimes carved on the cases.

    IMG_3677.JPG IMG_3676.JPG IMG_3674.JPG IMG_3673.JPG IMG_3672.JPG IMG_3671.JPG IMG_3670.JPG
     
    Chris Radano and Jim DuBois like this.
  37. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

    Feb 18, 2004
    3,395
    135
    63
    Male
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    That's a shiny case. I would say it's a marriage clock (the clock is not a marriage, it was presented to a married couple). What size dial? I see your Isle of Wight hooded clock in the pic for size comparison, which I thought was 6" dial. So, the hooded clock must have an 8" dial?
     
  38. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It's a nine inch dial. I agree, I had never thought the hearts significant until today when I was explaining welsh love spoons.

    It looks very shiny in the pics, not so bad in real life, but the colour of the wood really stands out, we love it. I'd always fancied a Bower, he isn't that local, next county along but I know Downton well which is the next village to Redlynch, and that's where Delaunce was eventually based. I'd love one of his too. Bower was a very well known character in Redlynch (current spelling) and Downton.
     
  39. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If you look in pic three, that's the area that was never going together again. The front panel was now too small, everything was split apart from the shrinkage of the front panel which had split as well. The front and sides are crown sawn not quarter sawn so the shrinkage is in the width and that did for it I think. Fortunately it is all still flat. If you look closely you can see the cabinet maker has let in a new piece of oak to that side of the front panel.

    There was some serious worm in the edge of the carcase which has been filled, the plank used to make that obviously had some sapwood on the edge and the worm went for it.
     
  40. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    It has found a home, but we are running out of space. The fifth longcase in my bedroom.

    71523220_10156083393197126_6138363080440020992_n.jpg
     
  41. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

    Feb 18, 2004
    3,395
    135
    63
    Male
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I think they're too voyeuristic. Probably not even the married couple had him in their bedroom. Or, are they guardians? Looks like time for a larger abode.
     
  42. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Just as well we are gay as we share with John, George, George, Peter, and John. There will be William soon too. Only the Knibb is running though.
     
  43. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I was looking at them this morning and thinking about what you said Chris. I've never thought about them looking at us, but I do think of them as friendly (we don't have sad face clocks, there are a couple in the collection but not in cases)

    The ones in the sitting room do look like they are on guard, spaced around the room as they are either side of windows, fireplace, other furniture.

    I just see them as bits of history that have been marking time for 250-300 years or more. Most are having a well earned rest but they have been restored and when I'm gone I expect they will each find homes of their own where they can carry on for another 200 years with any luck and a bit of commonsense from humankind.
     
  44. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

    Feb 18, 2004
    3,395
    135
    63
    Male
    Pennsylvania
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    My mother in-law used to work for a realtor some years ago. She will tell stories, mostly about her old boss. But she did say she once had to find a house with high ceilings, for a gay couple to accommodate their grandfather clock collection.
    The way you have your clocks in the photo, they look like people. And the older clocks certainly have personalities.
    I don't have any longcase clocks, at least not in cases. However, Regency bracket clocks can resemble Yul Brynner wearing hoop earrings.
     
    novicetimekeeper likes this.
  45. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
    8,958
    423
    83
    Male
    retired and on my second career
    Dorset
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    When I started collecting longcase I already had quite a collection of art on the wall. Things were strategically placed in their own space. A friend who is much more artistic and creative than me ( author, book editor, literary commentator) had arranged her art like a game of tetris. I didn't take to it at the time.

    Years later I do what the cabinet maker calls clock tetris, and have adopted the same for the pictures. I actually like it too. This wall was covered with works of art as is the rest of the room, and once the Freeman dial clock is up we will be playing tetris with the artwork. My concern is that we won't find homes for all of it because like the clocks we have limits like not over radiators, avoiding the south facing walls for coloured works and wooden cases.
     

Share This Page