Discussion of published auctions before sale.

Discussion in 'Horological Misc' started by Tom McIntyre, May 21, 2019.

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  1. geno55

    geno55 Registered User
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    Any discussion of auction items would be basically about 3 parts, Originality, Condition and Value ,good luck trying to nail all 3 with many different voices giving their opinion or maybe having secret agendas. Geno
     
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  2. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I have given lots of opinions in the past, some people listen, some dont, its their choice.
     
  3. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Um... Not necessarily.
    Definitely not if the commenter is speaking as an expert and NAWCC member (which is typically the case as I've seen it occur).
    And... As I understand the proposal, it's not the intent to present comments as belonging to the organization, proper. Simply expert(s) within it.
     
  4. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    In the facility being proposed, comments would be attributed to their authors. Moderation does not change that. It only allows for a second round of refinement in what is said. If the OP does not approve of any edits that might be made, they would not be posted. In some cases the entire comment might be unseen by the public (or subscribers as the case may be.)
     
  5. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Tom - in my view, if a learned society is to offer an added value facility to professional auction houses and their bidders, in which it takes responsibility for 'moderating' the discussion, it will not be able to distance itself from the opinions that it has actively moderated. Thereby the opinions that are expressed will be perceived as being 'approved' by that learned society.

    John
     
  6. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    My opinion on this is that it is a dangerous avenue to pursue:

    1. As already stated, many folks who actually have the knowledge to intelligently comment on a high profile piece likely will avoid it as they don't want to drive interest-and hence bidding-in a piece for which they will likely also be bidding

    2. As Clint has stated, and further to my first point, the lack of comment on specific piece from specific individuals is as good as a tacit endorsement of that piece, or at least as evidence of that person's intent to bid. Not only is that an endorsement of the piece, but "price fixing" can work both ways. As mentioned, sometimes folks will withhold their bid if they know a friend is bidding on or interested in a piece. On the other hand, some others could well drive up the price of a piece they wouldn't normally be interested in out of pettiness or spite just because of a dislike the person who is interested in the piece. I know people who don't make a habit of attending live auctions(and instead bid over the phone or internet) for that very reason.

    3. Truth is an absolute defense for libel/slander/defamation, so a knowledgeable person commenting on problems with a piece should(in my non-lawyer) opinion be legally safe. Comments that are incorrect but made in good faith might get a bit trickier, and simply incorrect information could definitely open up a big legal problem. I would think that the person making the comment, and not association, would be on the hook, but at the same time I wouldn't want the association to have to spend a lot of money testing that.

    4. I'm curious as to how many of the horological auction houses(and I'm including places like Bonhams that do a significant horological sales volume in that) would even be interested. I can think of at least one auction house where the main watch cataloger is someone I actually ask directly in many cases if I'm considering buying a piece whether it's at his house, Ebay, or another house. That particular friendship predates his affiliation with the auction house.

    There are just a few thoughts, but on the whole I have some serious concerns about implementing this.
     
  7. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Yes, I think you are ;)
     
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  8. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Out of the many members of the NAWCC only a few have voiced their thoughts here.
     
  9. Bryan Eyring

    Bryan Eyring Registered User
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    I suggest you go peruse the other boards for differing opinions lol
     
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  10. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    What other boards are you referring to?
     
  11. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    I have been a member in the past (twice) and no longer am, so my "vote" will not count.

    However, as I read this thread I wonder about the "What If?" scenarios:

    Have you been able to find members of the NAWCC who would be willing to provide the services that you foresee contracting out to the Auction Houses?

    What happens if the members of the NAWCC leave the auction house out in the cold?

    Suppose an auction house from Russia, The Ukraine, Slovania, The Far East, The Middle East, etc. wants to contract the services. Will the NAWCC do so knowing that most of the knowledge is in American, Canadian, British and perhaps French and German items? Will it be selective? Sorry if I missed some important countries.

    I cannot foresee how this would be moderated without legal implications.

    Yes, I do believe in the slogan: "I stood around waiting for somebody to do something until I realized I was somebody". So I do support Tom's initiative in putting this forward and look forward to the consideration of the good and the not so good in this initiative.
     
  12. Tom McIntyre

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    The idea will need buy in from the NAWCC to go further. It will be presented formally to the BOD later this month.
     
  13. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    That is good to know that it will be presented to the BOD at the physical meeting.

    I will spent some time this week contacting BOD members to voice my dissent on this issue...
     
  14. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Without seeing the proposal?
     
  15. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Ben,

    (said in a nice way)
    If you look at the people who have viewed this thread you will see
    that many of the BOD have already read this thread(I believe their names are highlighted in gold/yellow).
    I'm not sure there too much more to add that hasn't been said.
    I really think that both sides got to say the pros and cons of the
    underlying idea of the proposal.



    Rob
     
  16. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    Someone having viewed this thread at some point doesn't necessarily mean that they have necessarily read all of the posts in the thread or examined all of the points/counterpoints made. A direct conversation with those involved in making the decision can have more impact, even if that conversation is an email.

    Tom,

    Since you're the one trying to force this through, why don't you make the complete proposal available for everyone to read/examine? I would welcome the chance to do so.
     
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  17. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Ben, Once I submitted the proposal to the BOD it passed out of my control. If it is included in the background material for the meeting, it may be published in advance of the meeting.

    I think your term "force this through" is ill advised. I am making a proposal that I hope will receive consideration and possibly be implemented. If we as members are not free to do that then why do we have members?

    If you have any ideas for improved services that could earn non-dues income for the NAWCC, I would be happy to hear them. If we have enough such proposals, we may be able to develop some new income streams for the association.
     
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  18. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    Well, Tom, all I can say is that I have voiced my reasons for not liking THIS specific proposal(and yes, I realize any member can submit something). I do find it a bit rich of you, though, to chastize me for saying that I'm going to voice my displeasure without having seen the proposal, but then dodge actually providing it on here.

    I should also say that I've been accused before of "forcing" issues by bringing them up with BOD members...I'm not the one who started that language.

    Regardless, I see this is a very poor idea fraught with problems, and I am certainly not the only one. I'll just ignore your wrist-slapping for and exercise MY right as a dues-paying NAWCC member to discuss the issue with elected(and appointed) BOD members.
     
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  19. Bryan Eyring

    Bryan Eyring Registered User
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    Like it or not Tom, it is the perception of a lot of members that you are forcing this issue.

    Let us all pray that this proposal dies a swift death.
     
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  20. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Just for the record I do NOT think Tom is trying to force anything. Now I haven't see what he submitted. If it includes a bunch of money as a bribe, then I will change my mind.

    What I do see is a person who is trying to come up with alternate ways for income, and spending time to flesh out his proposal.

    David
     
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  21. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    I just noticed this statement, and have to be perfectly honest that the more I read about this "proposal"(which Tom won't share here) the more alarmed I am about it.

    As it is now, at least by my understanding, posts are moderated to bring them into compliance with the general forum rules-basically the principles of keep a civil tone and don't attack each other. Of course, there are other things that are currently against the rules(discussion of active sales) that would be permitted, but obviously that would change.

    It seems unprecedented to me, though, to have moderators review/edit posts for accuracy. As it is now, if incorrect information is posted, the community does a pretty decent job of sorting it out. If something is ambiguous or not certain, those involved post their supporting information for their positions.

    In any kind of discussion forum, having a moderator ultimately arbitrate whether or not information is correct seems a very dangerous precedent.

    This is yet another reason why I see the proposal as Tom keeps hinting at but won't provide is a terrible idea.
     
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  22. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    I am in total agreement with you on this, Ben. I, as a Moderator, would directly refuse to moderate a post for accuracy ... not least because I would almost certainly be unqualified to do so. I have no idea what Tom has in mind in this regard, but I hope he didn't mean it!!!!!!
     
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  23. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Some members have been known to post outright lies to damage the sales prospects of something nearing the market with the intent to lower the sale price or dissuade competition. That is probably the most egregious action I recall seeing. There are undoubtedly other forms of misinformation that could be deliberately posted. For examples declaring that someone was the owner of an item in an auction catalog when that was either not true or protected information would be considered inappropriate in my opinion. I do not know what things might be triggers but whatever those rules were they would be clearly stated.

    Moderation does not mean making edits to the OP's material but rather suggesting edits to make the material courteous and legal. If the OP were to insist that the edits could not be made, the post would not be displayed. No one here would edit another's words to change the meaning, although typo's are sometime corrected when they are obvious.

    I have not been talking about the possibility of this facility in the Message Board Forums. It would be a space with its own rules negotiated between the NAWCC and auction houses.
     
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  24. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    So, Tom, where does one find this proposal that you have criticized me for not looking at?

    It still comes across to me like you're trying to force this on the board in secrecy-none of the board members I've talked to have seen the proposal either. Is the intent to present it at the meeting and not actually give them time to examine it ahead of time?

    Unless I can be convinced otherwise(and not trying to weasel out of providing the proposal would go a long way) I will campaign against this to the extent that I'm able.
     
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  25. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I haven't seen where this is going to be open to membership opinion. We'll just have to hang on, and see what develops. I'm pretty sure the BOD members won't do anything to actually hurt the association, so I'm thinking we should let them have the discussion and see where it goes. Fingers crossed :)
     
  26. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I am not the secretary of the BOD and my personal opinion is that we should not be discussing a BOD action in the public forums. I certainly cannot publish BOD material here but I would not publish it anywhere after submitting it. It is the Chair and the Secretary that make up the background materials for the agenda and publish it in the appropriate forum in the members area or not as they see fit.

    When I was on the BOD we had a transparency policy that required all background material to be published well before the meeting. The policy often failed in implementation as I recall.

    Ben, as you certainly know, I never criticized you for not reading. My comment, hardly a criticism, was that you would have difficulty creating an informed opinion about something your had not read. My advice would be to wait until you see the proposal and discussion, as I will, and then take whatever position you feel is appropriate.
     
  27. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    Well, Tom, once again I'll say that I can only form an opinion on what I've seen here, and it seems that everyone(but you) is staying in the dark. Based on what has been said/shown here I am 100% against it.

    Frankly, it seems to me that this is trying to be pushed through under a cloak of secrecy...and I'm frankly furious over it, and at this point I also don't care where we're having this discussion. It needs to be discussed, and the thread in the members area has devolved into a discussion of how people can see the physical meeting. If you think my post should be moved, by all means move it.

    I'll also mention that you saying that is quite rich considering that YOU were the one who started discussion of what really is an NAWCC matter on the open forums.
     
  28. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Ben, when I posted here it was to provide an example of a possible mechanism for the NAWCC to earn money. I was hoping that others would be encouraged to come up with their own possible product ideas. I did not want to restrict those ideas to dues paying members.

    Since then, it has been placed on the agenda for the BOD meeting. That was when I started the members only thread to alert people that it was going to be discussed at that meeting. You may want to come to the meeting. There is no motion associated with this agenda item. It is a presentation.
     
  29. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    Sure, I'll drop 3 grand and take a week off work at a time when I can't possibly do it just to attend and hear the proposal...
     
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  30. John Matthews

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    Tom - with respect - if this is want you were hoping, why didn't you explain that and also give a concise explanation of what was proposed when you opened the thread? I have just read through the thread and although reading between the lines I can see that it is possible to infer that this could be the implicit intent, it is all a bit like trying to see through a descending mist. In my experience is far better to speak plainly, and put your (what appears to have been an evolving) proposal into context. As far as I can see we are now into the 4 page of posts and this is the only proposal that has been discussed. You clearly have been hoping in vain!

    Just one suggestion to generate some funds - I am not a member of the NAWCC, but I use the forum daily for more hours than I would like to admit. I think it is a fabulous resource, I for one would be willing to pay an annual fee of say $20 to have the privilege of contributing and benefiting from the wealth of knowledge of other contributors. I appreciate that may not be a popular suggestion with some, but it will it generate a further 4 pages of negative posts?

    John
     
  31. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    #181 bruce linde, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019

    i am responding as a member, not an admin.

    you are welcome to your own individual/subjective opinions about anything... but this kind of hostile/loaded language ('weasel out') in tom's direction is unnecessary and inappropriate.

    we are here to discuss all things horological and, in this case, organizational... but the rules at all times stress the importance of not personalizing comments. it's one thing to criticize an idea... it's another to snipe at the person letting you know in the first place that the idea is being discussed, and offering (enabling!) you an equal opportunity to discuss.

    (why did i say 'enabling'? if we WERE to make it about tom... he:

    - paid for the message board software you (and others) are using to slam him... as well as the third party company that provides our custom coding and support

    - also a member of the Tempus Vitam Regit® Society, an nawcc group that commits to donating $1000/yr for (at least) three years

    - also a member of the 1943 Heritage Society and is leaving the organization a major legacy through his estate

    - continues to give huge amounts of time, effort and money on the organization (and has done so for years), all without any agenda other than doing what's best for the organization.

    i volunteer but never lose sight of how little it really is when compared to tom's contributions. )








    hmm... you've been using the forum since 2015 and find it a fabulous resource... but are still not a member.

    how fortunate that one does not need to be a member to participate in the incredible give and take that goes on here.

    although i'm a clock guy and not into watches i have seen a number of your posts and have to admit they make my 'want' gene twitch... but still think you should pony up... just my opinion, and probably not surprising. i think everyone should.
     
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  32. David S

    David S Registered User
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    John don't forget that you can donate any amount you wish if you feel you are getting good value. When I first came here I did a few donations and finally decided that full NAWCC membership would be more appropriate for me.

    David
     
  33. zedric

    zedric Registered User

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    Just curious as to what happened to the proposal? Was there any outcome either way?
     
  34. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I have been asked to select a committee to study the implementation and given one year to determine the best approach and select some auction houses as first round partners. The committee will report its results to the Board of Directors. My goal is to try at least one and preferably more auctions during the fall season.

    I am still clearing up loose ends from the convention and I will be going to Texas next week with family, so it will be a little while before I can form a committee. I hope to have a few skeptics on the committee to ensure that we do not ignore the danger spots.

    Since we are designing an NAWCC Business Activity, further discussions will need to be in the members private area of the Message Board or some other venue. It is not appropriate to publish the details of a new business to the world.
     
  35. zedric

    zedric Registered User

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    Sounds like a reasonable approach, and good luck with what will be (based on the views expressed in this thread) a complicated discussion phase. Would you expect that the new site/discussion area be limited to only NAWCC members, or is the limitation for the business development phase.
     
  36. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    In the discussion with the BOD both alternatives were discussed. I would prefer it be a public facility but that is to be decided. It could also be premium based with an admission fee for each auction or some other premium arrangement.
     

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