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Discussion in 'Horological Misc' started by Tom McIntyre, May 21, 2019.
How would folks feel about having these discussions before the sale?
I think that's an inappropriate question for this forum Tom, and derails the intent of this thread.
If members would like to discuss that topic they are encouraged to participate in a thread that has already been established here:
colour me confused.
You are right Bryan but the thread you suggest is inappropriate, in my opinion, and not open to many of the folks here.
Also, how do members feel when moderators arbitrarily cut and post sections of threads into other threads without disclosing their actions?
Sorry, for those who are confused (including me at this point) Tom, undisclosed, decided to take it upon himself to split this thread off from a post he started on this thread:
Todays Horan Auction
Sorry for the confusion. In order to avoid an off topic discussion in the recent thread on the Schmitt-Horan sale on Sunday, I moved my question to a new thread. This discussion was suggested by that thread.
The question for discussion is in the title.
There was confusion in the other thread about what could be posted.
After the sale, our rules allow anything about the sale to be shared. I want to explore how we might extend that to a discussion of lots inthe sale before the actual auction with appropriate safeguards for the auction houses and those consigning items for sale.
As you noted in the other thread, your question is off topic here. Would you like me to delete it, so we can continue on the topic?
The entire span of time here has been 16 minutes. I apologize if anyone is confused, but I can only type so fast.
Well I fundamentally disagree with this discussion taking place within this forum. Unless you plan on replicating the same thread within the other forums this provides very little holistic value.
I also feel this decision should lie only in the hands of dues-paying members, i.e. those that have a stake in the organization.
Is the discussion about all upcoming auctions, or just auction houses, online, or whatever?
I think the rules are unnecessarily harsh on this issue, but I'm not convinced discussing lots in upcoming auctions is necessarily the place to start modifying them. I would like to see a relaxing of rules on recommending suppliers for parts.
Not talking as a moderator here but a member of the forum.
I think that discussing specific upcoming auctions is teachable BUT
in teaching people about a specific watch we will probably tear it
apart. Wrong dial, wrong hands, scratch on the plate, late for dinner,
not original case, etc etc. If I were the auction house or ebay seller
depending on what you let happen, I would want my description
of the watch I'm selling to be the guide. I think we already get
this type of teaching moment when we talk about the watches that our forum members post
and knowledgeable members here do not hold back(and they shouldn't).
Talking about live or upcoming auctions will either increase the demand
for a watch or decrease the demand for that watch. I'm not sure that's
what we want to do.
I largely agree with Rob here.
I suspect that allowing discussions of current auctions would devolve into noobs asking "Should I buy this watch?" I think instead of offering buying advice on specific watches for sale, at public auctions or on Ebay, we should be encouraging nascent collectors to acquire the knowledge to make their own judgements. And it also avoids even the possibility of someone shilling for an ongoing auction. I mean, even simply posting "Hey, what do you think of this watch" about a currently listed piece drives interest.
I suspect that a lot of us use emails and PMs to alert folks we know to auctions they might be interested in. I know I do.
I must agree with Rob and Genejockey. A few members of this forum sell on the 'bay and I have bought from them - same consideration applies.
I've had my share of teachable moments and scar tissue. I accept them. Caveat emptor.
Other venues are not our business.
Late for dinner indeed.
Wow did my post about an auction, that had “already taken place mind you, and I therefor “OWN” these items, get someone’s panties in a wad or something? I am glad I don’t get upset at what others post on here...... Live and let live folks. No rules were broken. What’s the problem? Heck I like seeing what other folks acquire myself. I also thought that many folks here were involved in this auction and would have something to share that they won. Pardon the you know what out of me LOL!
Add me in the mix with rob, Doug,and Leigh.
This, in my opinion, is the place where people can gain the knowledge to make their own decisions, not to see if they should or shouldn't bid on something coming up.
That seems like inviting disaster through the front door.
Friends and aquaintances that discuss such things privately is one thing, to have an open forum for the world to see.... No bueno.
We are talking about Open Auctions’s correct? If that’s the case I would agree. If we are talking about an auction that ended then I don’t see a problem.....
When you are talking about popular on-line sites where people sell their own items, there is a strong incentive to hide defects and perhaps even be deceptive. In a large professional auction house, it is very important to the sellers that all lots be accurately described. They do not want anything going to sale with hidden defects even though they publish a caveat that they are not responsible. The responsibility comes from the use of the term "professional" and the courts have shown over the years that they cannot escape it.
To the auction houses, the greater danger is that the noobies are frightened to have the experts lined up against them and are thus inhibited from participating. If there were a way to assure a level playing field where there had been a serious effort to have everyone with equal knowledge then the prices would be expected to rise due to the increased competition.
Another lesser, but still significant danger, for the auction houses is syndication either intentionally by forming illegal bidding groups or casually by avoiding bidding against ones friends. The fear that the "experts" know more than they do inhibits the newcomers even if they have significant knowledge of the subject and the collaborative bidding costs the auction house and the seller money they would otherwise have received.
Absolutely concur. I mean, most of us run here to post our most recent acquisitions anyway, because here we have an appreciative audience that doesn't roll its eyes and ask how much we paid for it and whether we've seen the bills lately.....
And yeah, we're talking about open auctions.
It seems someone certainly has a problem with my original post about the Horan auction Sunday, but the funny thing is this. I am within the rules so suck it up buttercup!
I also didn’t post any prices because that was my business. Someone decided to do so without giving me the courtesy of a simple request. Thank the lord I’m not that dramatic and feel the need to play God! If anyone had PM’d me I would have gladly told them what I paid. It was obvious I didnt post the cost for a reason and it wasn’t about violating rules. People talk about losing members here a lot from what I have read. This is a PERFECT example of why it is!
I will continue to post what I acquire so learn to love it is all I have to say for those whose life revolves around causing drama, I’m here to stay!
Peace Out ✌
I am sorry if my post was offensive to you. I did not "post what you paid" but rather posted what the auction house published on their site, with their permission. The point I was trying to make was that the information about the sale was public knowledge and was not in any way against the rules of this message board to share.
My overall point here, is that if I can find out what you paid, anyone can. So, not posting it was just your choice, not a requirement. I believe that everyone who is interested in collecting should have all the information available on what they are considering purchasing. Then the person who buys it will have bought because they believe it has a higher value than the others do, not because they know more about it.
Giving the advantage to those who know the most is not necessarily the way to grow the hobby. If all 100,000 potential buyers wanted to participate here to ensure they knew what there was to know, that would be good for us as well as them. I do not think noobs need to be scarred from battle to qualify to buy good collectible items.
So in other words you took it upon yourself to know my business?
Sir, a gentle reminder that it was YOU who put YOUR business in front of OUR faces with YOUR original post!
Tom makes a very valid point - he provided info that we would have all found anyway!
Ok Tom so let's play this one out shall we.
Let's say I like to collect things, let's say for kicks and giggles its pocket watches.
I look on the internet and find places where there are people like myself, and others with lots of knowledge about them. Much more knowledge than myself.
I have many pocket watches that I am proud of that I would love to share with others, so this is a great place to join I believe. So I get signed up, PAY for a membership even and start posting.
I am a NOOB so I make some mistakes. Meh no biggie it happens. So then I learn how to post pictures of my collection so I can get the satisfaction of others telling me that they are nice, look good, or whatever. I can ask questions and get lots of great answers and it's all good. Then one day I decide to post some pictures of watches I just won in an online auction that was OVER, and WITHOUT mind you putting the prices I paid for them there, since its nobodies business except mine.
Then some guy who has never contacted me, through a PM or otherwise, decides on his own to post the prices I paid.
Well Brother I wasn't raised to get in other peoples business, and if I did I expected to get "smacked down in the worst kind of way" because its not my business to share what others do.
You doing what you did wasn't to help others here. Let's be completely honest.
You thought for whatever reason that my post regarding Horan was WRONG. So you took it upon yourself to go there, take the time to look at each auction for the items I posted, then come back and post the final bids that I paid. Thats just MORALLY WRONG SON! You say you only posted what the auction house posted and you and I both know, as everyone else here does, that you are using semantics. In other words, that dog wont hunt!
Now you would have everyone believe its for the betterment of the organization? Give me a break Tom. That has nothing to do with it at all. I suggest from now on to ignore my posts if they upset you that much. Don't you think if I wanted the prices posted I would have done that? Dont you think it would have upset me if someone made it their business to do it? So by doing it without asking me first shows an utter disdain for me, and actually for the other members here.
Personally I believe you need to be censored for what I would call inappropriate behavior and it certainly doesn't look good, except for just a select few.
Just for the record. I am not to be trifled with. I pay my dues, I try to play by the rules and if I break one I assure you its not intentional. I don't mind constructive criticism because I am an adult and understand I make mistakes. You stepped over the line and you know it. I am a MOD on another kind of website forum that has nothing to do with collecting at all. However I do understand my role there. It seems to me that you have forgotten that!
Let me also add. There are many collectors that dont realize they can get better deals at other online auctions than fleabay. Maybe thats the reason for all the moaning and groaning. Did I expose a little secret? I certainly hope not, but I do know one who wasn't aware of them.
Now I am here to remind you! Have a wonderful evening, I know I will.
You make my point for me. I would be willing to bet you wouldn't have posted it. Yes you most certainly could have found out. Most people I know wouldn't post the information though. Would you have?
Well, that's the problem see? It's not like this was a private sale between two individuals to which nobody else is privy. A public sale is by definition NOT 'nobody's business except mine'. If I posted pics from an Ebay auction I won, I would not be surprised if someone looked it up and discussed what I paid, because it's right there on the site.
I am not disputing that at all. What I do have a problem with is someone getting their panties in a wad because I posted this AFTER the auction was over. Then decided to go there and obviously he doesnt know my bidder ID so he had to wade through them all to get to the prices I paid. To me thats just like stalking someone. Its a behavior that is foreign to me. It he sleeps well at night thats on him. Me I would never post something like that because, well its just not my business. Some of us are just raised differently.
It's not a rule on our forum, and obviously people can do it, but there should be some etiquette that if you look up
a watch someone else bought it would seem weird if I said under the post of your new
acquisition the price you paid. Yes look it up, but it should be up to the buyer to disclose
what they paid for it(just for manners sake).
Now if I point out an ended auction of a watch I really thought was cool
and didn't know who bought it that's another story.
I feel like I missed a meeting. I didn't see anything like that, either here or on your thread on the Horan auction.
I believe, and I may be mistaken, that there has been edits on my original Horan thread. If not I apologize to all. I will not apologize to Tom for his actions regarding posting the prices I paid on the Horan auction without showing some respect by asking me first.
Did you know if I buy a home today, in several days anyone can find out what I paid for it, but one has to ask why right? Like I posted earlier, what he did was weird, to say the least to me.
I am sorry, you feel I got in your business and did you harm. Your original post has not been edited, but as Senior Technical Administrator I do have that ability. I have never done that without request from the original poster.
You could not be further from the truth about my motivation. I LOVED your original post and I saw it as an effort to share what you had found both because you liked the watches and, as you said, you thought they were a bargain. I thought you had not posted the prices because you thought it was not allowed.
If you would like to get in my business, I purchased the nickel 1857 model in the Ladd case that was sold the previous Thursday on the Jones-Horan site. (The other branch of the Horan family.) I am sure I paid too much for my watch, but I was very curious about it and spent a couple of hundred extra to satisfy my curiosity.
One of my roles here is to explore what is possible to make this site more exciting and successful. I really would like us to have a serious discussion about how to generate a more level playing field for beginning watch and clock collectors. Since this discussion about your mistreatment has thoroughly derailed the discussion I wanted to have, I guess that will happen at another time.
If you want to see my personal collection you can use the link in my signature.
Thats a very plausible explanation, why didn't you PM me? I most probably, if it were put this way, had a very different response.I think things could have been handled differently by all involved here. Apologies to anyone that I have made feel uncomfortable. I am not one to go softly into that dark night so.....Again I wish this could have been discussed in a PM beforehand. Like I just said in another thread. Its all good. I don't hold grudges but I do speak my mind. Having said that this is the last I will speak in this subject unless in a PM of which would remain private.
Have a good evening,
Tom, are you looking for a way to advise or help new or inexperienced collectors before the purchase? My opinion is it would be a popular option but should be for members only.
I think you will have an uphill battle against the many who frown on buying or selling though.
I think that is catered for by private messages perfectly well. I get asked a fair bit in private messages, and I'm always happy to help. Equally I go to others in private messages if I seek help.
I suppose PM works well if you know people here. Many new members do not and as far as i know mentoring new members doesn't happen.
After a couple years i still don't know anyone i could PM about a potential purchase. Been to two Regionals, very hard to get to know folks there also.
Most everyone has been members for years, not many new people coming in.
So i can understand why there is so little resources or support for new members.
I get PMs about auctions from people I have never spoken to before. If they see that is your field they will ask a question.
Yes, so do I, I think you're right, it depends to some extent on how you word your profile.
Sorry, but this whole thing is a bunch of silly grandstanding.
YOU and ONLY YOU decided to post the lots you'd won-it's likely no one(other than the auction house) would have known you won them if you hadn't posted here.
YOU are the one who decided to put your business out in public, and prices realized from any auction house are not exactly a closely guarded secret.
There are people posting in this thread who are quite private about what they buy and sell, even at public auctions. I've handled some high-profile lots from sales over the past few years that were bought by people posting in this thread-of course I know what they paid for them as I was either watching the auction or checked the prices realized afterwards. I'd not share that so-and-so got such-and-such item in the auction-that's there business if they want to share it, either publicly or privately. If you are so concerned about people getting involved in "your business" then don't share what you bought.
No, personally I would not have.
I have many better things to do
Any reasonable facility for pre-sales discussions would need to be rather different from the forums. However, there is a distinct possibility that those newcomers who are interested but shy about speaking up would find it very helpful. They could even be totally silent "flies on the wall" and have significant benefit.
I think it would require support from the auction houses themselves and they would need to have some level of input moderation. That would not be a trivial thing to set up and would involves contracts between the NAWCC and those "clients." The discussions would need to be courteous and in keeping with the normal presentations of the businesses. Participants would need to agree that their posts could be edited for accuracy and tone. That might keep some away who are against anyone touching their words.
All auction houses already provide condition reports for items on offer and will respond to specific condition questions. The difference between that and an NAWCC sponsored facility would be that we would have observations available from others who are not employees of the auction and the reports would be public.
It would be easier to manage the discussions if one had to be an NAWCC member to participate and view the discussions. On the other hand that would not serve the auction houses as well as a public setting like this one. For the auction houses it is obviously promotion and they would want it to have the largest possible reach.
Tom, it is interesting but seems more complicated than necessary. I would like to see it a benefit to NAWCC also.
I almost hate to post this suggestion......
When i first frequented this site there was a site at the bottom for "values".
I believe there was a small charge for use. How about doing something similar to evaluate a watch someone is considering? I would gladly pay a small fee for this service. My purchase range is typically $300 up to $3,000 per watch.
It would greatly ease my mind having people more experienced than myself comment. Try as i might, i have been burned a few times so i am a bit gunshy.
Saying i "need to study more" is not an answer.
Thank Tom for these threads. I appreciate you!
George, my description of the business structure was to answer some of the questions I think I have been hearing. I do not think the site would look at all complicated to a user. It certainly could have an "admission fee" that would be low enough to satisfy the auction houses need for maximum exposure. It might also have automatic moderation of posts so that a responsible party would review each comment before it was posted. That could avoid some of the misunderstandings that arise in the normal forums.
This is just my train of thought, by the way. I have only had casual discussions with auctioneers on the topic.
It has been my experience in my 50 years in this computer product business that the inputs from potential customers can only be taken as guidance. The only way to know if something will work is to actually put it out there and remain responsive to actual usage issues.
Tom, it is not my intent to go against the rules. I am going to post a hypothetical situation.
Lets say i want a Maiden Lane 25j to add to my collection. I have located a potential watch. I want it to be correct, complete, good working condition, and i don't want to overpay. My skills are not where they should be. I am worried about fakes, frankenwatches, etc. As these are not common ebay sold does not help much. Independent advice would be valuable to me. These forums offer little help. I would pay a reasonable fee for help. Besides this service generating revenue for this site it may help with membership. Again, the above is hypothetical
This is not a good idea, because it will generate interest in the item being discussed and cause the price to inflate.
George, you can pick a few people who you deem knowledgeable and privately ask for advise about the watch.
If I can help you feel free to contact me.
Jim, you have helped me in the past. Thank you!
I dont understand how a auction house wants outside help. And i dont see how it will help buyers of the item.I think it will directly affect the sale of the item and not in a way that perhaps the auction house wants to happen. And Ben summed up how i feel as well.
I quoted these two posts because I believe they have nothing to do with the topic I was trying to discuss.
I will restate the idea.
We could create a new facility that would contract with auctions houses to promote their auctions with the idea of "A level playing field."
The fundamental concept is that prices are lowered by the perception of newcomers that the auctions are not safe because of manipulation of bidding by "hidden forces." Note that this notion need not be true and no one really knows what the possible impact is on the market.
The auction houses fear the depression of prices by the actions of individuals as I described earlier in this thread.
The concept is to provide a place that can be trusted. It would, of course, have to earn that trust through the experience of the users.
It is not part of my idea to provide an open consulting service about particular items submitted for review. Such services are possible and it is very common at NAWCC Marts to have a potential buyer ask if he can take an item to someone he trusts for an opinion. Most sellers have no real problem with that. As was pointed out earlier that does not necessarily help newcomers who do not know whom to trust. With that caveat our current PM/Conversation system is appropriate for that purpose.
I would like to continue the discussion of a separate NAWCC facility that would post upcoming auction catalogs and allow discussion of the lots in the catalog prior to the date of the sale. The facility would contract with the auction houses for this service. The discussions would be moderated to prevent abuse of the facility.
This may not be the best forum for this discussion but it is where the opportunity presented itself.
Tom, well it would enlighten me as to what auctions are happening.
As it is now i have to locate auctions on my own because they cannot be listed here.
Although I would love it to be so, it is very unlikely that all auction houses would participate. There would still be hidden bargains and sleepers but the early stage collectors might feel like they had a better chance.
On the downside if those that think they have an insider group refused to patronize "level field" auctions, it might all blow up.
I think you are right on the money on this issue. I see very little problem with discussing watches from the perspective of learning about a watch even when it may be up for auction. When I see a watch up for auction, this piques my interest and then I start reading about the watch and learning about this watch as much as I can. Sometimes, I get material from the NAWCC library. Many times it is the watch that is up for auction that starts the whole interest in learning about the watch. I am sure there are other NAWCC members who feel the way I do. Also, there are many knowledgeable people that are NAWCC members and are on this website that have experience. I can read about a watch and that is helpful- but nothing can substitue for someones practical knowledge and experience about a watch that they have seen before and I haven't. Of course, proper etiquette should be an important part of any watch discussion. Watches are expensive and no one likes to make a mistake about buying a watch when maybe this could have been avoided. I feel the NAWCC should help fill this void.
Honestly, I don't think discussing a watch will inflate the value. The watch is what it is- a discussion should not affect the value all that much.