Disc pendulum Running OK - hands not moving...

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by Ron751, Nov 19, 2017.

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  1. Ron751

    Ron751 Registered User
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    I’v got a 400 day disc clock Wurtz/Kienzle ? It’s running fine but with no hand movement.

    photo of motion works w/tension washer shown. {Reflection shown on plate}



    Is the washer in the wrong place ?
    IMG_0596.JPG
     
  2. marylander

    marylander Registered User

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    Ron, the washer is at the correct place, but it is not compressed. You need a bow washer on top of the minute hand so when you push in the locking pin, the minute hand got pushed in to compress the washer to increase the friction.
    Ming
     
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  3. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Ron,

    As Ming says you need some compression on that washer. I think you have all the parts there. No need for another washer behind the locking pin, but you do need a locking pin. Make sure the hour hand clears the back of the minute hand.

    I have another picture somewhere.

    Eric
     
  4. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    Ron,

    As Eric says, you do need the pin inserted into the minute arbor in front of the hands. As far as I can see from the photo, the dome washer is there but it's not pushed back far enough to compress the cannon against the rear. I'm assuming you have the pin, or some replacement taper pins to cut from.

    -Derek
     
  5. Ron751

    Ron751 Registered User
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    Thank you all !
    The minute hand was nice & snug & I forgot that it needed that little tiny pin.
    It's the little things that count.......
     
  6. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Ron, I'm pleased to see our folks have helped resolve your problem. Could you please post photos of the complete clock so it can be properly identified and dated? Full front, back plate without suspension guard if it has/had one, dial, pendulum top and bottom is what is needed.
     
  7. Ron751

    Ron751 Registered User
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    Will do John, I already have some of those photos from a previous ID attempt.
    In the meantime, maybe you can give me some ideas why it is running very fast. 180 degrees of swing w/~1" overswing. Fork is near top of post. Hockey puck Pendulum adjusting screw does not help.
    Thanks.
     
  8. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    Ron,

    You'll likely need to change the suspension wire. Sounds like it's too small. What's the size of the current wire?

    -Derek
     
  9. Ron751

    Ron751 Registered User
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    Derek, the spring measures .10mm with my digital caliper. The Susp. unit was made for me by Chris at Horolovar using the blocks & fork that came with the clock. Clock is probably a marriage & may be a Wurtz made by KIenzle ? At this point. I am clueless as to maker but I would like to see it running properly.
    John Hubby asked me top post detailed photos so year & ID can be determined (Coming very soon to this forum !)
    John knows a lot about 400 day clocks so hopefully I can get it going right AND find out its pedigree.
    Thanks for your reply.

    Ron
     
  10. Ron751

    Ron751 Registered User
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    John, as you requested >>

    Back plate.JPG Front.JPG
    Dimensions of Pendulum.JPG Restamped Serial #.JPG
    BACK.JPG Front & Dial.JPG
     
  11. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    #11 etmb61, Nov 21, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
    Your suspension bracket looks like it's from a Kern or Herr clock. You should have a gimbal bracket for it. That's number 14 in the repair guide.

    Eric

    bracket14.jpg
     
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  12. Ron751

    Ron751 Registered User
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    Hi Eric,

    you wrote a while back about the gimbaled bracket. You told me they were so rare that you had to make one.;)
    She's running unusually fast with that setup. See above posts.
    I have a feeling that this clock may turn out to be a mixed breed because of the swapped components. I just want it to keep
    decent time whoever made it. John Hubby is going to try & ID & date it. Good luck to him o_O

    Horolovar supplied the .10 spring & used the existing blocks and fork.
    Chris also sold me a 19 X 36 MS - Which turns quite hard & only a few times....Is that normal ? The dims. come from the old spring.

    I've got 180 degrees of swing w/~1" overswing. Fork is near top of post. One tooth at a time slowly on the pallets . So why is it FAST :???:

    Hey - if you feel like making me a gimbaled bracket - I wouldn't mind. I'm sure you are a lot better on a lathe & mill than I am :rolleyes::D:nutjob:

    Thanks for your responses,
    Ron
     
  13. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Ron, it appears to me that only two parts of your clock are not original, first the upper suspension bracket that Eric has already pointed out (it should be a No. 14), and the pendulum. The base, pediment, movement, dial and bezel are all correct, so it IS a Würth, made in 1908 and has Plate 1423 movement which has already been well confirmed to be by Würth. Yours has the lowest serial number in my data for Plate 1423.

    The 19 x 36 mainspring is correct but the suspension spring should be a 0.097mm (0.0038 In.), the reason it is running so fast is the spring is much too strong. Derek mentioned it might be too small, if that were the case it would be running very slow, not fast. Remember that thicker = faster, thinner = slower.

    While these movements appear very similar to Kienzle movements, Kienzle did "not" make any movements with the click and ratchet on the back plate. My observation is that the two companies were collaborating on technical details since Kienzle had just started making their clocks the year before and it is obvious that they were sharing (or exchanging or licensing) their designs to each other. From 1907 to 1910 there are many similar features between both companies' clocks and a few that are identical where it is obvious that parts were sold or traded from one to the other.
     
  14. Derek Smith

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    John,

    Thanks for catching that! I knew that but my mind went in both directions at the same time. Thinking "it's fast because big, need small" but somehow it didn't make it on to the paper.

    I always remember it as "big and fast / small and slow" ....

    Thanks!

    -Derek
     
  15. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I just remember that bigger is thicker which means it's stiffer, thus will have a higher "frequency".

    Kurt
     
  16. Ron751

    Ron751 Registered User
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    Thank you so much, John. You have solved the mystery of the "mixed-up" 400 day disc clock.
    Can you shed any light on that pendulum ? Is it generic so to speak or can it be pinned down.

    I'm getting the gimbal bracket from Eric & a new suspension spring from Chris at Horolovar.
    I should have a Wurth that is worth its weight in brass keeping good time by New Year's.
     
  17. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    I couldn't decipher the complete serial number that had been "X'd" out, but your pendulum was made for a Kienzle clock. If you can look closely and determine what that number is, I can date it and we'll then have an idea whether it is contemporary or later than your clock. The pendulum design is actually directly taken from a Würth pendulum that was patented in 1906, which Kienzle used from their first production. That's one of the reasons I say that Kienzle and Würth definitely collaborated in some manner.
     
  18. Ron751

    Ron751 Registered User
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    My wife (The teacher) and I came up with this decipherication > 224524
     
  19. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    Looks like it to me too.

    -Derek
     
  20. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    114514

    Here are some other Kienzle pendulums to compare numbers with.

    Eric

    105447.jpg 108179.jpg no1.jpg
     
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  21. Ron751

    Ron751 Registered User
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    Thank Eric - everybody is playing detective with this clock :-}
     
  22. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Ron, thanks for the effort. I see Eric has also been doing some digging. Problem is, I'm certain this was originally a Kienzle pendulum and Kienzle never made a clock with the serial number starting with "2". So, I did some archival digging and found that the number "1" as stamped on Kienzle pendulums has a fat top and a wiggle on the bottom. It is also very distinctively different from the number "2". Here are three examples:

    101245 Pend Under-SN.JPG 102982 Pend SN.JPG 111096 Pend SN.JPG 16277 Pend SNs.jpg

    After looking at these three and comparing to the "X'd Out" number on your pendulum, my conclusion is that the original serial number was 114514. This pendulum was made in 2nd half 1911 based on my Kienzle database, so it was added to your clock at least three years after it was made, and likely later. I also notice that the number stamps on the pendulum that match your movement serial number are "not" the same die set and do not match the Kienzle numbers, so very clear it was added later.
     

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