Dial and hands for Howard Series II

[60MinuteMan]

So here we go, I want to get serious about restoration on this piece, although it may be an uphill climb.
This is an 1858 E. Howard Series II #2856

I was hoping to get your insights on the correct dial and hands for this watch, I hear finding an original dial will be a bit of a costly treasure hunt, but the info will help guide my way.

The first pic (no case) is mine, chipped and missing a (umbrella) minute hand.
The others are series II variants I have found on auction sites and other places. (Christies, Jones_Horan, Bogoff)
With all these, and some conversations I've had with folks, I'm still unclear on which dial and hands are A) correct for the specific piece, or B) at least close proximity period correct.

Any pictures would be greatly appreciated. (correct dial, and hand types)

And next, I tackle the case... It may be a long road but I plan to have fun along the way.
If you happen to have parts, feel free to reach out directly too.

Randy
(I was tossed if this should be in watch repair, so we may get moved - all good!)

 

[John Pavlik]

Randy, not sure, but I have always thought the polished tip spade hands were correct for the earlier Howards. They are out there, but they also were made for standard 18 size watches rendering those hands a bit short to reach the appropriate track..

 

[60MinuteMan]

Thanks John. What year or SN is yours, and if you dont mind me asking, how confident are you on the dial itself being appropriate for the watch ?
I have the polished tip hands on an earlier Dennison, they look nice.

 

[John Pavlik]

This example is a “Series III” and is in the 3900 range... I do believe the dial is original to the movement, as is the case ..

 

[60MinuteMan]

Bubbling this back up for a sec to see if our Howard gurus can help. Of the pics I posted initially, are any of them correct on the dial for a series II ?
I suspect maybe both pics #2 and #3 might be ok. And I think the spade hands, particualarly the diamond/polished tipped spades.
Honestly it seems John's series III is the same to me.

What do we think ?

 

[Clint Geller]

E. Howard & Co. was rarely perfectly consistent about anything. However, most Series II (a.k.a., Model 1858 Types D and E) watches that I have had reason to believe were completely original have dials with straight, horizontal two-line print style Howard signatures. There was a single-line script style signature that was used briefly right at the beginning of Series III (Model 1862) production, as well as on some "rare" K and I Size dials. Single-line print style dials probably appeared sometime around SN 8,000. Some extremely early Series I movements (Model 1858 types A and O) had unsigned dials, quickly followed by the arched signature style, which was phased out before the end of the Series I (Model 1858, Types A, B, C, and O) production at SN 1,800 in favor of the two-line print style signature dials seen on most Series II's. At least one Series II dial also is known with serpentine Arabic numerals similar to those seen on several early Appleton, Tracy & Company Grade Model 1857 movements by Waltham.

As for hands, by far the most common original hand style seen on keywind Howard movements was the "teardrop" version of the spade style, with polished tips and bosses. However, Breguet ("moon") style hands (uncommon) and trident style hands (rare) can also be original. It is common to see an N Size Howard keywind movement with obviously too short L Size hands on it, as I believe is the case in the picture shown here with the Series I style dial. The Breguet hands on the Series II movement, which appears to have its correct dial, look like they may be original. The one umbrella style hand shown on the movement with the Series III dial would be correct only for a stemwind Model of Series IV (Model 1874) or later, if it is N Size, or for a Series V (Model 1869) or later, if it is L Size.

My August, 1993 NAWCC Bulletin article discusses Howard dials and hands at greater length.

 

[60MinuteMan]

Thank you Clint , I did the dissassembly on my series II just the other day finally, and this is very helpful to keep me on the right path.
I actually hit on your website as I was researching more just yesterday and found the links back to our NAWCC archives.
One specific to this topic and the other to Howard Cases, which is next on my hitlist.

Dials: Log In
Cases: Log In

Great info, and I appreciate everyones support here.
Randy

 

[60MinuteMan]

Clint, after re-reading again and again, and studying your response against each original post picture, I realize the thought you put to this, and I appreciate that. I think you nailed it on several levels. Awesome.

 

[vintageguy]

There was a single-line script style signature that was used briefly right at the beginning of Series III (Model 1862) production, as well as on some "rare" K and I Size dials.

Couldn't resist - here's an example of the early 1862n script signature Clint refers to - Movement Serial # 3543

 

[Clint Geller]

Couldn't resist - here's an example of the early 1862n script signature Clint refers to - Movement Serial # 3543


View attachment 622620

What is the serial number of that movement, please?

 

[vintageguy]

Clint, it's 3543.

 

[Clint Geller]

Clint, it's 3543. View attachment 622622

Thank you, VG. That's a lovely watch. As I expected, yours is one of the first 200 N Size Model 1862 movements made, with a half crescent-shaped center wheel hole escutcheon, a Series-II style pallet bridge, and two case screws down on the dial plate, also like a Series II (Model 1858 divided plate KW). (The first run of N Size 3/4 plate model 1862 [Series III] movements was from 3,301 to 3,400, followed by a hundred I Size movements.) The single-line script style signature quickly gave way soon after to a a two-line script style signature.

 

[Keith R...]

I have a series I sn#12xx and should have hands described above by John Pavlik.

Keith R...

 

[Keith R...]

Luv these old Howard's. Look closely at the dial and compare it to series III dials for script
differences. I fired it up today just to lube it up. The case is marked #1 (my only number 1 case).
It's a plain Jane silver case, but perfect for a carry watch (which I used to carry it). This is my
only series I Howard.

I thought I'd add some musket balls dug up by my new pup.

Keith R...

 

[Clint Geller]

Luv these old Howard's. Look closely at the dial and compare it to series III dials for script
differences. I fired it up today just to lube it up. The case is marked #1 (my only number 1 case).
It's a plain Jane silver case, but perfect for a carry watch (which I used to carry it). This is my
only series I Howard.

I thought I'd add some musket balls dug up by my new pup.

Keith R...
View attachment 623006 View attachment 623007 View attachment 623008 View attachment 623009 View attachment 623011 View attachment 623012

Lovely. That is likely an early Series III style dial, although I know of one seventeen jewel First Run Series I that has an experimental glass enamel dial on it with similar calligraphy that I supect is original. Howard was seldom completely consistent about anything.