Dent Watch Serial Numbers

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Frank Menez, Aug 8, 2003.

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  1. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Paul, you have found the following shipments from Audemars to M F Dent:

    1 in 1874
    2 in 1875

    Vaudrey Mercer shows the following shipments from Audemars to M F Dent:

    28 in 1859
    2 in 1861
    1 in 1875
    3 in 1879
    2 in 1880

    The one you found shipped in 1874 might match with the one Mercer shows shipped in 1875. The two you show shipped in 1875 might match two of the three Mercer shows shipped in 1879 (there could be a typo on one side or the other). The important thing is that Mercer clearly shows that after 1859, when Audemars made a significant shipment to MF Dent, the vooume of business between the two firms tailed off very quickly. Now in 1860, Marianna Dent remarried and her new husband became closely involved in running the company; he may have chosen to use Audemars only for exceptional watches.

    The watch for Dent in the Strand is, of course, for the other half of the split Dent business, that belonging to Frederick and then Elizabeth Dent.
     
  2. Edgar

    Edgar Registered User

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    That's very interesting information about 150 years old history...it's little machine of time ) we can only imagine and bit by bit assembly the puzzle of great history page...I would give anything to see it with my own eyes! Why still no movie about Breguet or Audemars?)
     
  3. Edgar

    Edgar Registered User

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    #153 Edgar, Dec 19, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2015
    I promised to provide circumstantial evidence of my theory that n&c (nn) was used as a minimum of spare parts made Audemars or movement for the n&c was doing most likely the same workers:
    1) lunar disk. Exactly the same design as in my pocket watch! how can this be an accident or coincidence?

    484d2b401872.jpg

    http://antiquorum.com/catalog/lots/dent-lot-286-647?browse_all=1&page=1&q=Nicole+pocket+

    Louis Audemars perpetual with repeater (like Dent ) - exactly the same design of the dial!
    ed0d30ebf093.jpg

    And my 11572 - look at the moon disk! The same design of moon
    52f97f073c70.jpg

    2) mf - case maker for Audemars. Dent - NN ( EN/CN) or AN.
    From this it follows that N&C ( NN) was supplied to the English customers. Don't accidentally pocket watch was made in the English style...it's a clever marketing ploy.
    Nicole and Capt were not englishmen...why they went to England? The only answer - it was a mission Audemars in England. The markets of Europe and America were busy Audemars no sense for n&c to work in the same area. they were not competitors!
    On my opinion N&C didn't made repeater or perpetual calendar - only winding system and chronograph details on English blanks supplied by Audemars factory special for English market. May by was another factory and clarified workers who can makes like Audemars workers, but for what? Audemars can! It was friendly partnership and family business.
     
  4. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    #154 MartyR, Dec 19, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2015
    Edgar, who was the dial maker of your watch? The maker's mark may be (should be!) on the back of the dial.

    I assume that is a little joke? If not, then show me one small single piece of evidence ... apart from your own imagination of course ;)

    Incidentally, I assume you have some reason to believe that Adolph Nicole and Henry Capt actually did go to England? Can you please explain what you know about this? For example which year did they arrive, and for how long did they remain in England?
     
  5. Edgar

    Edgar Registered User

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    The logic is simple: famous in England the name of watchmaker + movement in the English style + level of performance. At the end we get a finished product that can easily compete with English manufacturers.
    Audemars have established a winding system in 1837. Nicole in 1844 ( for English blanks)
    By and large it is not anything new came up, but it was important for the market of England!
    It was made for customers, because we all are patriots of our countries ...in Russia, France, America Audemars pocket watches we're been sold with different name on dials, because it's best idea for Audemars and his customers!
    Many people in Russia knows Pavel Buhre , but only 1% Audemars, and 0,001% know that's in Pavel Buhre was customer by Louis Audemars.
    the consumer doesn't care whose movement is , they buy the name on dial.
     
  6. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    I am not interested in logic, Edgar, just evidence. If you have no evidence, then it is OK to say so and to admit that you have a theory with no support.
     
  7. Edgar

    Edgar Registered User

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    perpetual dial without name on back side. N&C were focused solely on the English market. I meant that they opened an office there and not personally moved there to live and work
     
  8. Edgar

    Edgar Registered User

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    And it's was J.P. Capt, not Henry Capt
     
  9. Audemars

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    Marty,

    The four hundred+ shipments to by Audemars to Dent, to which I referred a few postings ago (it seems like an eternity) were all post-1880 and were to F Dent or J Dent (no mention of Cockspur Street or of anywhere else), it is sometimes difficult to read the (nevertheless very neat) script. My default view for that range of numbers is F Dent, but I may be (and very probably am) wrong.

    1875 shipment(s): I don't think it is a typo on the Audemars side as they are all hand written.

    What fun this all is.................Ho Ho Ho.

    P
     
  10. Edgar

    Edgar Registered User

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    Over 400 movements post 1880! Where are they now?) I think it's 3/4 plate movements with A. Nicole patent winding system. I didn't see many Dent watches with classic Audemars calibres ...only one 1850s for E.J. Dent. So this is the argument for my theory ) Unfotenatly many Audemars archive documents were fault. It's can be try, other point of view don't have a facts . I don't believe that NN in erly 1860s and post 1880s has a own manufactory. Only casemaking, some tools and detais for instalization patent winding system and chronograph on blanks. Has he got a full production line? I don't think so. Mey be after bankruptcy in 1885 ....but I don't understand the reason. Most famous and great company of 19 century in Switzerland ...what for?
     
  11. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Paul, F Dent was Frederick, Edward's stepson, who inherited the "other" business (not MF Dent) based in the Strand on Edward's death.
     
  12. Edgar

    Edgar Registered User

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    PP, V&C, AP, UN, Jurgensen and many brands in 19 century don't have own blanks and hight grade details production line. They ordered this for money in Audemars, Lecoultre, V.Piguet, Longines and other special manufactory who doing well.
    Some doing cases, other dial, glasses, hands, balance spring, main spring etc...

    MF made many cases for LA ...why?
    Because LA made movements, there was no need to make the cases himself. Cheaper and faster to order it from someone who specializes in the case production.

    But some one thinking that N&C (NN) doing all main watching details - case, movement, may be dial, tools, blank, hands...only mark on case and patent number are arguments. Do you understand what I mean?)
    My arguments ...it's a history of production in Switzerland. May be I'm wrong ?
     
  13. Audemars

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    #163 Audemars, Dec 20, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2015
    I should have said the 400+ sold to F Dent were all movements (the great majority as far as I can see) and complete watches - all sourced from various producers other than the Audemars factory in Switzerland - I believe directly to London, but it isn't clear whether they went via Le Brassus or not.

    There is a mixture of Bar movements and 3/4 plate., key-wound and stem-wound, lever/anchor and cylinder escapements.
    (Pleeease no-one ask me to analyse them).Nutjob

    The suppliers were:
    Calame-Robert,
    Courvoisier Freres
    Jaccard du Gros
    Antoine freres
    Matthey-Doret
    Jacot Broussareau (Not sure about the spelling of that one)

    As well as Dent there are lots of other customers in the same ledger:
    Aitchison
    Ganter
    Brown
    Taylor
    Topham & White
    Whitel
    Spikins
    Bainbridge
    Desbois & Sons
    Ch Frodsham
    Klaftenburger
    &c &c

    Sorry if this upsets any theories..............

    P
     
  14. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
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    Paul,

    If I understand, are you saying Calame - Robert was a supplier of movements ?
     
  15. Edgar

    Edgar Registered User

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    #165 Edgar, Dec 20, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2015
    Dent au Brassus)) Dent was here...
    12 " line classic Audemars movement.
    812d89ab96e2.jpg

    He was examined by Audemars)

    And look at this !!! It's Audemars classic transmission wheel!! That's what I'm talk about ...it's my argument
    eb2c602866b4.jpg
     
  16. Edgar

    Edgar Registered User

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  17. Audemars

    Audemars Registered User
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    No John, I am not saying Calame-Robert was a regular supplier of movements to the LA factory in Le Brassus, but they - and the other suppliers - are listed in book #5 (my numbering) as supplying watches and movements to the Audemars Depot in London in the period 1881 - 83. Those years are covered by this book which is a record of London consigment stock, where it came from and of the customers who bought it.

    As I say, I don't know if product was supplied directly or via Le Brassus.

    How much of it was in the form of uncased movements is yet to be analysed (it's not top of my priorities) but my impression has always been that it was well more than 50%.
    I suspect this was private label business and that the dials would have shown the retailers' names as often as not. In ten years none of the numbers has surfaced with Audemars on the dial. Indeed none of them has surfaced at all as far as I am aware.
    I suspect the depot sourced (as we would say these days) lower end stuff which they sold on to English dealers/retailers.

    But I don't know - and there is enough speculation going on around here already.

    This period was the run-up (or should I say -down?) to the 1885 bankruptcy. They were already in all sorts of trouble and very probably creaming off every buck they could from all sorts of deals. That's what I would have been doing.

    P
     
  18. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
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    Thanks Paul, not trying to side track, I'm trying to do a little research on a Calame watch I have.. Retailed with a London marked dial, and a German jeweler on the inner dust cover ...
     
  19. Audemars

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    Go on........
    Give me a serial number.
    You never know...................!
    P
     
  20. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
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    The number is 71634.. That doesn't fit... The movement has a reverse fusee w/ detent escapement.. Which appears very similiar to
    some Dent movements I have observed... I was seeking to find the reach of Calame in the mid-to late 1800's ... The dial is signed J. Robert Calame London.. It is very nice watch ....,
     
  21. Audemars

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    No that's not in there. Very sorry.
    P
     
  22. Pedro-San

    Pedro-San New Member

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    Hi All,

    I don't know if this Thread is still active, but I also have a Dent pocketwatch.
    My dad gave it to me years ago - he acquired it on one of his trips to other countries (in this case probably Turkey).
    My dad recently passed away, and now I would like to know more about the watch, as it has a lot of sentimental value for me.
    A good friend of mine got it working again via a professional, but some more info would be great!

    My serial number is: 82754

    There are also other engravings: K.S.G., 0.800, 0.600, and some symbols...

    Here are 4 photo's: IMG_20160808_204539.jpg IMG_20160808_203842.jpg IMG_20160808_203950.jpg IMG_20160808_203905.jpg

    Any information about age, material, etc is much appreciated!!
     
  23. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I have a Dent too, but without case. It doesn't look like that though, is that a much later one? 2016-08-09 13.25.25.jpg
     
  24. Lychnobius

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    Pedro-San's watch is surely Swiss-made; the practice of having a separate bridge for each of the train wheels was never current in Britain, and it even has French-language labels on the regulator. The case appears to bear a London date-letter for 1845 (gothic upper-case K), but I suspect this is a fake; at that period the bridges would have been wedge-shaped rather than parallel-sided, and in any event there seems to be no reason why a watch made in Switzerland for the Turkish market should bear English marks at all. (The notation '0.800' refers to the fineness of the silver, 80% - a lowered standard which was not accepted in Britain.) My guess for the date is about 1870.

    As to whether there is any real connection with the Dent family of London, I must leave that to our specialists. It has been clear from many postings in this thread that there were indeed cross-currents between the Dents and various Swiss suppliers; on the other hand, it is also well established that the Swiss made a habit of arbitrarily putting English names on their products.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  25. Tom McIntyre

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    It is important to distinguish between the Dent in Kendall and Dent which was primarily an English sales office for the Buren watchmakers and the higher quality Dent watches which were a separate firm and engage in litigation of the name use with K & D.
     
  26. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi,

    Those big red "endstones" are just there for show I'm afraid, they have no function and might even be glass.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  27. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Welcome to the board, Pedro-san :)

    Your watch is Swiss, made for the Turkish (or more correctly Ottoman) market, in a Swiss silver case. Unfortunately I can't identify the maker KSG or their trademark of an acorn and oak leaf.

    The signature on the movement is J Dent, London, whereas the Dent who is the subject of this thread is E J Dent of London, and his two successor firms M F Dent and Dent & Co. E J Dent were indeed the subject of widespread fakery by Swiss makers in the second half of the 19th century, and I suspect that this is one of those fakes. The only J Dent I can find is John Dent, the father of Edward John Dent, who was a watchmaker in the late 18th century and who therefore could not have been responsible for this probable late 19th century watch.

    The Ottoman market prized London-made watches, and the Dent firms in the late 19th century were very highly reputed, so it would make sense that the spurious signature of one of the top London makers would greatly increase the desirability of the watch ... even though the initial was incorrect!
     
  28. Pedro-San

    Pedro-San New Member

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    Wow! Thanks for the fast and elaborate responses Lychnobius , Tom McIntyre and MartyR !!!

    I will store the information along with the watch :)



     
  29. Chris Steed

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    I have owned my Dent 1/2 hunter watch since 1973. I have just taken photographs & data for security reasons as I guess this watch is quite valuable now. The watch is in an 18ct gold case hallmarked for 1888. the face has a triangle with the words " Dent 61 the strand & royal exchange London 44158" the movement is also engraved with the same words and serial number with the addition of " watchmaker to the queen". The movement is fully enclosed with the exception of the balance wheel and regulator. I would expect the movement to date very close to the hallmark as the number on the face & movement are identical. However not being a horologist I do not recognise the type of movement. Consequently I would appreciate any further information you could tell me. Chris Steed.
     
  30. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Chris, and welcome,

    Your watch movement sounds like a 3/4 plate, a type widely used at the time it was made, but some clear pictures of the movement and the hallmarks inside the case would be helpful. Dents were a high quality house, their achievements amongst other things being the manufacture of the Great Clock at Westminster to the design of Lord Grimthorpe.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  31. Chris Steed

    Chris Steed Registered User

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    Dear Graham,
    Please find attached photo's of my Dent watch, I hope they are clear enough for you to see what you need. kind regards Chris. IMG_20161024_114741.jpg IMG_20161024_115050.jpg PICT0003.jpg PICT0004.jpg PICT0005.jpg PICT0006.jpg
     
  32. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Chris,

    Not a 3/4 plate as I had guessed, but a full plate, (this refers to the top plate covering the entire movement, and is a style dating back to the origins of pocket watches). The balance has a rim with two cuts in it, made of laminates of steel and brass, designed to compensate for changes in temperature which would otherwise alter the rate of oscillation.

    I'm afraid the pictures of the hallmarks are too blurred to be readable, apart from the date letter, and to see that the pendant mark is different.

    Everything appears to be in good order for its age. The hands look original, with the correct "double spade" on the hour to show through the closed lid. The inherent conservatism of the English watch trade and its customers is graphically demonstrated here; this movement could have been made 20 or 30 years earlier, (apart from the keyless winding), and would not look very different.

    The maker's (or sponsor's) mark on the pendant is clearly different from the one in the case, and this is quite usual, since pendants and bows were often made by separate specialist craftsmen. The movement itself was probably made in the Midlands or Northwest of the UK as a "raw" frame, and finished in London by Dent's own workshops. The star in the centre of the regulator scale often indicates a Coventry origin.

    A handsome watch, which would have been a substantial purchase when new in 1888.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  33. Chris Steed

    Chris Steed Registered User

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    Dear Graham, Thank you for all that info. I am glad the key on the chain didn't confuse you as that must have belonged to an earlier watch. This watch is as you described a stem wind & pin hand set. I did not notice that the stem had a different hall mark to the case and am grateful for the explanation.
    kind regards Chris.
     
  34. Jeff Hess

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    Fantastic thread! I've been interested in Dent for a long time yet somehow I have never stumbled upon this thread! I slogged happily through the whole thing and learned quite a bit. I thought I knew a lot. But I guess I don't. I have this watch that I'm thinking about buying. And I thought I would ask for some opinions. I'm making some assumptions here so please feel free... completely free to correct me if I'm wrong. I am assuming this is an early attempt at split-second chronograph. I am assuming that this was made during the five to six year period hat Frederick Dent (step-son) owned the company. I am assuming that this is a complication made by Adolph Nicole. I am assuming it is from 1859. I am assuming that it is a little bit unusual. It is a split-second chronograph however it does not go back to zero. There is a button on the side a tiny button that I am assuming is supposed to engage the time setting function. The other button is a slide that I am assuming locks to watch. Or I should say locks the chronograph function. The split-second chronograph is completely controlled by the crown. I would like to learn about this watch before I buy it and also get any information that I can. Please correct any of my assumptions. Because they are just that assumptions and thank you very much.This a rare attempt to post and upload from my phone so bear with me...

    20180125_085126.jpg 20180125_084955.jpg 20180125_085203.jpg 20180125_085228.jpg
     
  35. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Jeff,

    This is indeed by Adolphe Nicole for Dent, the rather unusual case dated 1859, with his 1844 patented keyless work, which did include the now standard heart-shaped cams for the flyback to zero function. If your example isn't working properly it may just need a service. Could you post a clearer picture of the top plate, please, this one isn't easy to read with the flare.

    A picture of the pillar plate would be really interesting, but removing these hands and dials isn't something to be undertaken lightly, especially if it isn't your watch!

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  36. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    The watch is by Nicole Neilson. You can check which button sets the watch by pressing it and observing the movement of the exposed gears into the set configuration.

    The detailed operation of the watch is controlled by devices under the dial but there seem to me to be two possible arrangements we can guess at without removing the dial:

    One is that the watch has a chronograph and a continuous running second hand. This is consistent with it not having a subsidiary seconds hand. The other button could be a hack for the main movement. In this configuration the crown would run the chronograph functions sequentially, start, stop, reset.

    The other possibility is that it is a split. In this arrangement, the crown still does start stop reset on both center hands, and the side button stops one of the center seconds hands.

    The hallmark may be the key. It looks like and "d" but that is 1859, too early for either, but an "o" is 1969. Neilson's catalog claims they invented the split in 1871, the chronograph in 1862. The hands, if original argue for configuration one since the hand with two arrowheads was used for chronograph functions.

    If so this is very interesting transition piece.
     
  37. Omexa

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    Hi Jeff, there was one of these movements for sale on eBay in the last few days; I was tempted but it had a bit of rust so I did not bid. Regards Ray
     
  38. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Dr. Jon,

    The date letter is definitely a 'd', so I think your first conjecture is the correct one. The earlier Nicole split seconds often had one split hand carrying a tiny star near its tip.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  39. Jeff Hess

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    It is for sure a split-second chronograph. And for sure 1859. No watch does run and the split seconds functions work fine the split functions are operated by the crown. The split functions work very well with both hands stopping and starting and flying back with the one button on the top. Thanks I will post some more pictures
     
  40. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    The case is certainly unusual - I have never seen a Dent case with that wide "bezel" which I can only guess might be to enable a smaller dial fitted to the larger diameter movement.

    The case was made by Alexander Nicholls of Clerkenwell, a casemaker I have never seen associated with either Dent or Nicole Nielsen. By an extraordinary coincidence, the initials AN (but not in an oval cameo) were used by Alexis Nicole, the daughter of Adolph Nicole, from 1865.
     
  41. Jeff Hess

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  42. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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  43. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    How does this split work from the crown? What is the sequence?

    Also the 1859 date raises questions, since Nichol claims to have invented the basic chronograph in 1862 and the split in 1871.
     
  44. tonywatch

    tonywatch Registered User

    Mar 20, 2009
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    Dear All,
    Very interesting post, caming to ineresting assumptions and supposition.
    E J DenT and M F Dent, as far as it can be established, DID NOT MAKE any watches! A quick view of Dent work ledgers at the Guildhall Library (manuscrip section) will confirm this. For peaple who can not go to the library the book by Vaudrey Mercer "Edward John Dent and is successors" list, at least, 41 supplier of watches, so....

    Nicole & Capt, Nicole Nielsen, Nicole Nielsen & Co, Nicole Nielsen & Co ltd, stayled themself as "Wolesale Watch Supplier". If a client asked for a item they did not make, it would have been broght in.
    In the last quarter of the XVIII century, nobody, in England could make calender work, so it was sourced from Switzerland,..Vallée de Joux... L B Audemars... Louis Elisée Piguet or others.
    North & Sons Ltd carry on the watch business in the same fashion as Nicole & Capt.

    This may clear in a small way the confusion.

    Sep 29, 2012
    It has been very interesting to follow the posts concerning Nicole Nielsen, Charles Frodsham and E J Dent in the last few weeks. Having carried out some research on Nicole Nielsen & Co. I will try to shed some light on the matter.

    I am not surprise that a lot of confusion and myths exist about Nicole Nielsen. No official document is extant, no work ledgers.
    As a limited company annual account will have been filed at Company House, but these are disposed of after 25 years from the date of closure.
    I managed to find with whom they banking but the banking archive in the City had a big clear out in the 1960’s and …..no records there!
    However they left a fantastic legacy in their watches, chronographs, split second chronographs, triple complicated watches (calendar, chronograph and minute repeaters), pocket chronometers and….of course tourbillons.
    To see the full range (54) of watches produced by the company there is a reprint of their catalogue (c.1910) available on the web.

    Nicole Nielsen & Co, late Nicole & Capt could be called “THE MAKER MAKER’S”. Beside, E J Dent, F M Dent, Charles Frodsham, Smiths & Sons Ltd.
    at least 30 other retailers are known to have sold Nicole Nielsen watches, and the list continue to grow.
    In the Horological Journal, March 1888, a very interesting article report a visit by BHI student in witch is stated that Nicole Nielsen “were mechanized to a very high degree and making everything in House”.


    My research has been carried out by looking “sideways”: birth, marriages and deaths
    registrations, the censuses from 1841, the work ledgers of Charles Frodsham and E J Dent (now at the Guildhall Library), wills and probate and the archives in Lausanne and Geneva, Switzerland.

    Nicole Nielsen started as Nicole & Capt at Le Solliat, an hamlet near the village of Le Sentier in the Vallée de Joux, Switzerland, by the coming together of two very talented watchmakers Charles Victor Adolphe Nicole and Jules Philippe Capt.
    Chronology

    NICOLE & CAPT (LE SOLLIAT 1837) 1839-1874
    NICOLE, NIELSEN 1874-1879
    NICOLE, NIELSEN & Co 1879 –1888
    NICOLE, NIELSEN & Co Ltd 1888-1917
    NORTH & SONS LTD 1917-1933

    NICOLE & CAPT set up at 80b DEAN STREET, SOHO, LONDON.
    1841 The census list 5 watchmaker living at the above address
    1844 Patent n.10,348, This includes the first practical keyless work for both going barrel and fuzee watches. It also includes chronograph work that allowed a second recording hand to returned to zero by mean of a heart-shaped cam.
    1844 4 June Adolphe Nicole register his mark with the Goldsmith Company
    1851 LONDON GREAT EXIBITION in HIDE PARK. From a report it appears that E.J. DENT exhibited NICOLE keyless work and his repeaters.
    1855 PARIS EXHIBITION: for the first time NICOLE & CAPT are exhibiting under their own name.
    1858 NICOLE & CAPT move to larger premises to 14 SOHO SQUARE, LONDON.
    1862 Nicole takes out another Patent relating to ‘STOP-WATCHES AND TIMEKEEPERS, &c.” Improvement on the castle wheel and the application of the heart-shape cam combine to produce the first CHRONOGRAPH.
    1862 LONDON INTERNATIONAL EXIBITON. From the catalogue” NICOLE & CAPT, 14 Soho Square.—Nicole’s patent keyless watch and compteur.”

    1869 Sophus Emil Nielsen, a Danish citizen, join Nicole & Capt
    1871 from this date NICOLE & CAPT started to produce split second CHRONOGRAPH. (Rattrapante)
    1872 June, Harriet Victoire NICOLE married Sophus Emil NIELSEN.
    1874 Change of name to NICOLE, NIELSEN.
    1876 the 7th August, Charles Victor Adolphe NICOLE died at the age of 64 in STREATHAM, London COUNTY OF SURREY.
    1879 23rd May “Charles NICOLE on behalf of self and partners, Emil NIELSEN and Zelia NICOLE, trading as NICOLE, NIELSEN, and CO, 14, Soho Square, Middlesex: Watch Manufactures.” This is the Trade Mark registration, and from this date they will be known as NICOLE NIELSEN & Co. LONDON.
    1884 March . An article in the Horological Journal Nicole Nielsen & Co. introduce a new keyless system.
    1885 December 31st The Partnership between Charles NICOLE, Zelia NICOLE and Emil NIELSEN is dissolved.
    1888 Change of status to NICOLE, NIELSEN & Co LTD. The majority of the shares were bought by The NORTH family and Harrison Mill Frodsham. Emil NIELSEN continues as managing Director.
    1899 Sophus Emil NIELSEN died; the company has a new manager and director Robert BENSON NORTH.
    1904 THE MANIFACTURE of speedometers is started, it is very successful, a factory is built outside London.
    1914 GREAT WAR: NICOLE, NIELSEN & Co LTD is taken over by the government to help with the war effort, they became a major supplier.
    1917 The name NICOLE, NIELSEN & Co LTD. sadly disappear. The company will be known as NORTH & SONS and WATFORD Speedometers.
    1919 Gold watches to the usual very high standard continue to be made in Soho Square. The effects of the war were felt quite badly and skilled workers were in short supply.
    1922 NORTH & SONS started making car clocks.
    1929 Economic crash affects NORTH & SONS. . Robert BENSON NORTH died.
    1933 the company goes into receivership and is sold off.
    Further clarification may be had by
    Reading the Horological Journal, March 1888: an article report a visit by BHI student in witch is stated that Nicole Nielsen “were mechanized to a very high degree and making everything in House”.

    happy reading

    Tony,
    Cambridge, England
     
  45. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    Sep 3, 2000
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    Push the crown both sweep hands start. push it again, one stops and other keeps going... push it again and first one catches up. But at not time do they fly back to zero.
    Customer emailed today, I can take the dial off so will post pics.

    thanks.

    Jeff[
    QUOTE="Dr. Jon, post: 1170392, member: 475"]How does this split work from the crown? What is the sequence?

    Also the 1859 date raises questions, since Nichol claims to have invented the basic chronograph in 1862 and the split in 1871.[/QUOTE]
     
  46. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
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    Sep 3, 2000
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    Also Dr. Jon,

    the "net says" (and if we read it on the internet it MUST be true right:???:? :) that he invented it in the 1840's.

    Jeff
     
  47. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    Hi Jeff.

    I was not around but my source is a book you might want to own. It is a reprint of the Nicole Nielson Catalog from 1910 that David Penney published. I took my dates from page 5 of the catalog.

    I lean to believing this because the previous way to trying to time functions was independent seconds hand watches, either dead seconds, or 1/4 or 1/5 jumpers. These are not nearly so useful and lot more complex to make, Most makers stopped making them by after 1862.
     
  48. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Dear All,
    Very interesting post, caming to ineresting assumptions and supposition.
    E J DenT and M F Dent, as far as it can be established, DID NOT MAKE any watches! A quick view of Dent work ledgers at the Guildhall Library (manuscrip section) will confirm this. For peaple who can not go to the library the book by Vaudrey Mercer "Edward John Dent and is successors" list, at least, 41 supplier of watches, so...

    Hi Tony-Thank you very much for taking the time to print out all that information on N/N. I have printed it out, and will put it in my Roskell file (Not the one on the board)
    I have a watch by N/N sold by Robert Roskell Jr. On the top plate "Robert Roskell 14 Soho Square London & Liverpool. the N/N number is under the dial (David Penney).
    Thank you again-Allan
     
  49. Montrealgpf1

    Montrealgpf1 Registered User
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    Long and interesting thread. Can I beg for assistance in dating my F. Dent? I approximated it at 1859 but would prefer a knowledgeable person’s view.

    The watch is verge fusee, key wound, key set, and is signed F. Dent London, serial #25661.

    The case is .925 silver and it is signed IT (for James Thickbroom, registered 1843).

    The porcelain dial, possibly not original, is unsigned.

    Thanks for any insights.

    7D14DE2E-48B7-41BD-9537-E9D338F9DE8B.jpeg 719CC240-C031-4502-9817-BD6AD38E2917.jpeg
     
  50. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Montrealgpf1,

    The case should have a date letter as part of the hallmarks, which will narrow it down to the parts of two calendar years, (the London assay office changed their letters in May each year). A clear picture will show more than just the letter, but also the font and the style of it.

    Regards,

    Graham
     

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