Demon table clock

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by stushug, Jan 1, 2019.

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  1. stushug

    stushug Registered User

    Apr 19, 2009
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    #1 stushug, Jan 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
    This one is possessed. When I got it, it was filthy and wouldn't run. I cleaned everything and bushed a few holes and got running. The hairspring was a mess, out of round (it is the original, as is the whole movement.) but I got it relatively straightened out. It ran fine out of the case, with a small adjustment on the adjustment arm. As soon as I put it in the case, it would lose time, about an hour a day. Removed it, it runs fine for days. I checked everything for binding, etc... ad nausem. Now, without me touching it, it's losing fifteen minutes in an hour This is out of the case. It is in beat, but watching the pin, I see the balance wheel is spinning so fast, the pin is traveling almost 360 deg each beat. I know that it's spending way too much time with the extra degrees of rotation and that's what's slowing it down. The adjuster has no effect either. Is there any way to slow this thing down? I know if you shorten the spring you can speed up the movement, but it's set right where it's always been as far as length. It's really personal now. This thing probably isn't worth $10 but I can't stand that it's winning.

    20190101_222226.jpg 20190101_222811.jpg
     
  2. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    360 degrees rotation is great. The hair spring is still messed up. Looks like the second coil is bumping the back side of the regulator loop, and perhaps some coils touching each other on part of the rotation. I think the easiest way to deal with this is to remove the spring and get it in shape. The outer coil is adjusted so that as it runs it touches one side then the other of the inside of the regulator loop. It should then keep time.

    RC
     
  3. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    I've been fighting this spring to get it in shape, I guess the battle continues. It was really out of round and out of true. Each time I get it more in round, it gets a bit out of true, and vice versa. It's extremely frustrating. I'll keep at it until I get it right...
    Thanks RC
     
  4. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I'm terrified of hairsprings. My impression is that it's more important for them to be round, so that the coils won't touch each other, than it is to have them true, which I assume means that the coils all lie in the same plane. Is this correct?

    If the movement is running fine outside of the case then my best guess is that the plates are being distorted when they're screwed into place. Since three points define a plane, perhaps it might be helpful to try mounting the movement with only three screws for the time being.
     
  5. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Very strange behavior. One problem is that in the situation you describe (touching coils) the clock should run fast, not slow. Maybe there is another cause (not escapement related) that makes the clock run slow. Maybe a slipping minute hand clutch?

    For the other problem that things change when the movement is mounted in the case, it might be possible that the adjuster doesn't fit correctly into the slot in the back of the clock cover and needs to be slightly bent so it fits in the middle of the slot without touching the sides. That might cause it to be pushed in a different position, changing the speed of the clock. However, the OP said that the adjuster doesn't make a difference...

    Uhralt
     
  6. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I agree, there is likely more than one issue at work here.

    RC
     
  7. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    Assuming all mechanical issues are corrected without movement stress when mounted, as RC mentioned, two hairspring coils are stuck together in the second photo. This could be from adjustment, not thoroughly cleaned or bases on your description, possibly a magnetized hairspring typical of unexplained inconsistent operation.

    When working on hairsprings, all tools and the hairspring itself must be demagnetized in the same manner as working on watches. While I have a number of demagnetizers, I often use a electronics head demagnetizer for tight hard to get at areas per attached photo.

    While this may or may not be an issue, it needs to be addressed as a final procedure in proper repair of hairspring based movements.

    Jerry Kieffer

    fullsizeoutput_342.jpeg
     
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  8. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    When a clock like this is received in a somewhat messed up condition and we have no way to know what has already been done to it, I would not rule out the possibility that this hair spring could be an incorrect replacement. I would still begin by correcting the obvious first, and as Jerry said, make sure it is demagnetized, an often overlooked but important step.

    RC
     
  9. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    I did de-magnatize, it seems to maybe have made a difference. I'll let it run and see what happens.
     
  10. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Does anyone know when non-magnetic hairsprings ("anti-magnetic," they were called) were introduced? I know that they first appeared in watches not long after electric motors became common in industry, and I know that they were used in alarm clocks. Other clocks, I dunno.

    I believe I read in a clock book 50 years ago that tape-head demagnetizers are, if used improperly, capable of really tangling up and damaging a hairspring.

    The one shown in Mr Kieffer's post was very popular (Radio Shack and others sold zillions of them, and I probably have one) but both it and tape machines are extinct in the wild nowadays. My all-time favorite was an AC electromagnet called a 'bulk eraser' that would clear off a ten-inch reel of audio tape. It would make otherwise non-magnetic coins dance on its surface.

    Anyway, be careful.

    Mark Kinsler
     
  11. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I have a Radio Shack head demagnetized and it doesn't have enough power to mess up anything. I also have the bulk tape demagnetized which as you say can really rip a hair spring. I have however used it successfully for that task by holding it a foot or so away and approach the hair spring slowly and as soon as it begins to vibrate just slightly, slowly withdraw the demagnitizer to 2 ft or more before switching it off. Not sure when non magnetic hair springs came into use in clocks.

    RC
     
  12. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    This cursed clock did itself in. The spring click let go, and the result was destroyed teeth and lantern pinions on three of four wheels. No way this thing is worth the time, cost or effort to completely rebuild. It's on its way to clock heaven as I type this. Thanks for all the comments and suggestions guys. I learned a lot working on this one. Onward and upward!
     
  13. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Tomorrow will be better. :emoji_scream:
     
  14. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    #14 stushug, Jan 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2019
    Before it blew up, I had it running. I"m watching the hairspring, run, the wheels are moving normally, but then, I noticed the hands weren't moving. I dis-assembled it and found the clutch spring was loose. There's a small brass piece that is a friction fit that holds the spring so it keeps tension against the wheel. It was nice and tight the day before, and somehow, by itself, it became so loose that now I could spin it around the arbor with my finger. At that point, I was beginning to be afraid to be in the same room with this beast. To save time, I peened it in two places to make it tight again. I assembled the movement and it seemed to run okay and was even keeping time. Then, suddenly, boom! Utter carnage after the spring let loose. Any time one of these starts to frustrate me, I think of your thread "Clocks hate me." If someone can get through that, I can keep plugging along on my nightmares too. Thanks for the kind words bangster!
     
  15. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Well, I guess there was some slippage before the clutch totally stopped working. Likely that caused the clock to appear to run slow as suggested in post #5.

    Uhralt
     
  16. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Keep the parts. No junk box is ever quite full enough.
    I hope it wasn't a customer's clock.

    M Kinsler
     
  17. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    It was one I bought on ebay a few years ago to practice on.
     
  18. stushug

    stushug Registered User

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    I found another clock with the same movement, and I was able to take the best of both movements and get this devil machine running again! It even keeps accurate time now. Thanks for all the help guys!
     

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