Dating Early Schatz Model 49s

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by KurtinSA, Nov 2, 2019.

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  1. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I picked up another Schatz 49 and based upon the research, it would appear that it was made somtime in 1949. I included a couple of pictures. But I wondered about a few things. I put this little time diagram together based upon what John posted in this link and a few other updates from Eric:

    #49 schatz new old stock

    This isn't all inclusive but wanted to see what's available to understand the dating. If there's some updates to this, it would be good to know.

    A couple of questions. If John's info is right about the date stamp, they started in January 1950. However, from all the clocks I have (a sampling of maybe a dozen model 49s), the earliest date stamp is 7 52. Seems strange that over all that, statistically I should have seen a 1951 or 1950 clock. Anyone else have earlier dated 49 models?

    Secondly, I wondered about the logo on the dial. Seems like I've asked before about various logo styles - slanted, black/fed font, etc. But for this clock, there's no logo on the dial. Is that also a characteristic of the early 49 (as in 1949) models? Is there any dating that can be done with that? Or was JUF/Schatz just using up spares before using the logo?

    Thanks...Kurt

    Schatz49Timeline.jpg SchatzSwRIFrt.jpg SchatzSwRIBck.jpg
     
  2. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Kurt,

    I have several early post war Schatz 49s with no logos on the dials. I'll have to line them up one day and take a picture. I consider these as transitional clocks because they share some characteristics mostly found on Schatz pre-war clocks. The most obvious is the dial is fixed in place with pins instead of collars with grub screws.

    I'll have to look at my dated clocks. I know I have one from 1952.

    Eric
     
  3. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    #3 KurtinSA, Nov 2, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
    Eric -

    Would love to hear of more details. My dial has the collars and screws holding it. I guess that's another detail I had forgotten.

    Come to think of it, I feel it's common place to call the post war 49 models "Schatz" clocks where as prior to the war and up until 1949-ish, seems like the term for them would be JUF clocks. August Schatz died in 1927 and the sons took over but they were still JUF until after the war when they became more known as Aug Schatz and Sons. According to the guide, some of the Model 49s had the JUF in the logo and some had Aug Schatz & Sons in the logo.

    Looked thru my notes and saw this older post by John:

    Purchased this JUF Post WWII Clock

    He mentions the Schatz name on the dial being introduced in 1949, but can certainly see the change over issue once production started again. He also suggests the JUF was used in the logo to reflect a higher grade of clock up until 1955, when Aug. Schatz & Sons was used from that point.

    Kurt
     
  4. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Whoops...just found another early JUF-Schatz 49 that I have...was one of the first couple of clocks I bought. It has the dial pinned in place and no logo on the dial. The clock was the subject of my post in which John answered with the above link. Looks like I was wrong in this post...it's plate 1278.

    Kurt
     
  5. etmb61

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    #5 etmb61, Nov 2, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
    Kurt,

    The lowest dated JUF/Schatz 49 movement is 6-52.

    Along with the pinned dial and missing logo, you will also find an older style motion work with a cock for the minute wheel instead of a single screw, narrower teeth on the barrel, thicker brass column basses and capitals, and often a brass over steel base with a wood core.

    early 49 diffs.jpg basebot.JPG

    These are also true for clocks with the black dial logo.

    Eric
     
  6. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Eric -

    So you're saying that the earliest dated clock you have is 6 52? I'm beginning to wonder if there are clocks with an earlier stamp...I've been wanting to find one with my birthday but so far, no luck. I found one with my sister's birthday, so I cleaned it up and gave it to her as a present.

    On my clock with the pinned dial, I haven't taken it apart since it worked as-is. But shining a light behind the dial, I can see the different (ie, older) motion works. On the clock I initially posted about, it also has the older motion works, although it has the collars for holding the dial. I haven't begun to dig into this new one, but I can see that the underside of my base looks like your picture. I can see where these highlight the transition from one style to another, using techniques and parts that were on hand until new ones were made. Plus, finding ways to cut down on the brass being used in order to save money and time on clock construction.

    Kurt
     
  7. etmb61

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    Kurt,

    Yes, the earliest dated Schatz 49 I own or that I've seen is 6-52.

    Eric
     
  8. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Finally got the clock apart. Sort of looks like it has never been opened up because some of the screws were fairly tight...although there was some distress on the screw head slots. I can basically confirm what Eric said about these early Model 49 clocks...thicker brass in the columns, wooden base covered with brass and steel. Here's a picture of the motion works...as suggested, this is somewhat older, more "complicated", and I'm sure Schatz converted to the simpler arrangement when supplies ran out.

    I couldn't get the hour hand off the pipe. I had to disassemble the clock before I could release the dial and pull out the center arbor. Then I flipped the movement and lifted off the dial with the hour pipe trapped. Even still I had to use my puller in order to move the hand off the pipe for easy extraction. I prefer to remove the hands and dial first so I can get a clear picture of what the original arrangement of the motion works is for help when it goes back together. Sometimes the clock won't let me do it that way!!

    Kurt

    Schatz49MotionWorks.jpg
     
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  9. KurtinSA

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    I noticed a difference with the anchor on this clock. It has fixed pallets, but the anchor base has some undercutting leading out to where the pallets are. I don't think I've seen anything like that before. This picture shows the anchor on the left and on the right an example of what I typically see with these type of anchors.

    Kurt

    Anchors.jpg
     
  10. etmb61

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    #10 etmb61, Nov 4, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
    Oh yeah, the anchor is different too. One of mine has the pin broken so I tried to use a later Schatz anchor and it won't work.

    Eric
     
  11. KurtinSA

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    There is one other thing that I've noticed about this clock, although it might not have anything to do with the 1949 era. This one has a brass base overlay on top of the center part. I can see the sharp edge in the area where the dome would sit. In this case, this overlay is firmly fixed in place...likely glued. The only other clock that I remember working on with this situation, the overlay brass plate was loose and once I removed the columns and guide cup, it separated from the original base. I found nothing unusual or wrong with that original base, but I ended up just putting the overlay back in place.

    Kurt
     
  12. etmb61

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    That's one feature I can't confirm. None of my clocks have it.

    Eric
     
  13. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Given the state of West German quality control in the immediate postwar period, I'd bet there was some minuscule scuff or other flaw that you just can't see, 70 years later.
     
  14. KurtinSA

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    Martin -

    I had a thought...could this be something they might have done during the transition period. If they had a number of older bases sitting around, without a hole for the guide cup, would it be reasonable they opted for the overlay to hide the job it took to drill a hole for the guide cup? Maybe the drilling process didn't go so well and this was the way to cover it up?

    Kurt
     
  15. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Anything's possible. I know both Schatz and KundO used these plates across several years.
     

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