Daniel De St Lue & John Terrill Pain

Allan C. Purcell

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I purchased a watch this week, which as not arrived yet and will say more about it when it arrives.

On the dial is written "De St Lue, London. On the top plate " Dan. De St Lue servant to her majesty the Queen"
The Queen, being the wife of George III. (The one with the Mudge Lever Watch) All that is straight forward, though I asked myself is the date on the inner silver case genuine. To me hallmarked London with the letter "C"
for maybe 1778 or 1798 both looking very much the same and both with the crowned leopards head. Then came, the case makers mark ITP no cartouche. So I looked in my old book by Priestley and no ITP. It dawned on me to look in the new book and there it was, though it says Missing Reg, and it was found on a watch case HM 1768 and I believe he found another for 1775. Addresses given are 67 Shoe Lane, London and on 16th. Oct. 1776 he was at 7 Dean Street, Fetter Lane, London. So for me, that would rule out the later date in Bradbury of 1798, though, would still not be clear for 1778.

View attachment 573705

I then turned to Loomes,
De St Lue, Daniel.London 1753-97. Succeeded by Rivers & Son, qv, Watchmaker to the Queen in 1765.

So does that mean from 1765 onwards, Rivers & Son were signing their watches De St Lue. I would say yes. More on this watch Later.

Allan

View attachment 573704
 
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musicguy

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Fixed it


Rob
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Rivers & Son
London 1783
Spindeltaschenuhr
18 Kt. Goldgehäuse, aufwendiges, sehr plastisches 18 Kt. Übergehäuse mit hinterlegten Durchbrucharbeiten,
Emailzifferblatt,
Vollplatinenwerk mit Spindelhemmung, Kette und Schnecke,
Gehäuse mit Hallmark für 1783,
Lt. Baillie- Loomes, Watchmakers & Clockmakers of the World waren Rivers & Son Nachfolger von Daniel De Saint Leu.
Außergewöhnlich gut erhaltene und qualitätvolle Uhr.





Rivers & Son
London 1783
verge watch
18ct gold-case, ornated, very plastic 18-carate-outer-case with deposited sunburst works
enemal dial
full-plated movement with verge escapement and with chain and volute
case with Hallmark of 1783
Lt. Baillie-Lommes, Watchmakers & Clockmakers of the World were Rivers & Son successor of Daniel de Saint Leu.
Exceptional well preserved and full-quality watch.


fo-13.jpg It would appear not, so where are we now. mmmmmmmmmm

fo-14.jpg HM 1783. The year after they took over the firm.

Anyone know when De St Lue died?

Allan
 
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John Matthews

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De St Lue, Daniel.London 1753-97. Succeeded by Rivers & Son, qv, Watchmaker to the Queen in 1765.
Allan - 'Watchmaker to the Queen in 1765' refers to Daniel De St Lue. David Rivers and Son dates are Cornhill 1782-1818. I noted this watch for the hallmark - I believe it to be 1778/79 and the maker John Terrill Pain operating from 7 Dean Street, Fetter Lane by 1776.

John
 

Allan C. Purcell

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I have now taken a look at "Britten's old clocks and watch and their makers" I now think De St Lue died c1789, First though a look at what Britten has to say.

De St Lue, Daniel.1753-1797, Golden Head, Clock Lane, London 1753; same Ho (home) 17, Clock Lane, and afterwards to 38 Cornhill (Bri) Cloak Lane, Collage Hill 1763-93 (dir), a good maker, & watchmaker to Geo.III /acc 1760), & to the Queen, 1765-8. The rest goes on about watches he made but not when so not relevant yet.

He also has some very good information on the Rivers & Co. in which he says the date of succession to the De St Lue name was 1790-1812.

Still looking......

Allan
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Watchmaker to the Queen in 1765'
Thanks, John, though that is all clear, we were writing at the same time, What I was chasing is the mistake by Loomes, it gave the impression De St Lue died in 1753. The above makes it clear now. Though it would be nice to know for sure when De St Lue died, and if he left a will. I am now looking at William De St Lue, maybe a brother who worked along with the Rivers Co.till c1818.This William was CC master 1796.

Thanks,

Allan
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Read the information in Britten wrong, there was a watchmaker named William De St Lue at the same address as Daniel. Thought it was William Rivers that became master of the Clockmakers Company in 1794. (See Britten on the Rivers & Son Co.)
Allan.
 

Allan C. Purcell

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The watch arrived today, thought you would like a look. It is everything the seller said and more, I am very pleased with it. While waiting for the watch to arrive I started a file of Daniel De St Lue watches, and I will post it later. There are some problems, in so far that many of his cases were in gilt pair-cases. There are other problems but I hope to sort them out with further numbers and help from members.

Allan.

qo-5.jpg ad-1.JPG ad-2.JPG ad-3.JPG ad-4.JPG ad-5.JPG ad-6.JPG ad-8.JPG ad-9.JPG ad-11.JPG ad-12.JPG
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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I have done nothing yet, in regards to dating any of the watches, this is slow work with only the few watches that have survived so far.
Still looking...below an update.

[pdf]574766[/pdf]
 

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Allan C. Purcell

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This from Dr Crott.

I am still looking for information on Daniel De St Leu, if anyone wants to join in.



Lot No. 438* (86[SUP]th[/SUP] Auction)

Daniel de St. Leu, Watchmaker to Her Majesty, London, Movement No. 524, 50 mm, 144 g, circa 1760

A very rare agate double-cased half-quarter repeating verge pocket watch made for the Chinese market
class=Normal> Case : outer case - curved from a single piece of agate mounted in 18k gold, large lateral hinge. Inner case - 18k gold, pierced and engraved with Rococo scrolling and a cartouche with a farmstead, signed movement protection cap, rear bell, all-or-nothing half-quarter repeating system activated by the pendant. Dial : enamel, radial Roman hours, gold Louis XV hands. Movm.: full plate movement, keywind, applied floral decorations, firegilt, signed, chain/fusee, 2 hammers, moulded movement pillars, verge escapement, three-arm brass balance, pierced and florally engraved balance cock, chatoned diamond endstone on balance.
class=Normal>
class=Normal> This is one of only three watches by Daniel De St. Leu known with outer cases made of a hard stone. One, in a bloodstone case, was in the King Faruk Collection however, without a repetition (sold by Sotheby's, March 12, 1954, lot 368), the other, in agate case similar to this one, set with diamonds but only with quarter repeater, was sold in London on Dec 17, 2003 (Christie's lot 46) for £36,425 ($63,780).
class=Normal> The other distinguished feature of the watch is its half-quarter (7 ½ min) repeater, the only one known by De Saint Leu, all others are quarter or hour repeaters.
class=Normal>
class=Normal> It is also one of the earliest known De Saint Leu's watches. These watches established his reputation which, in 1765, let to choosing him as a Watchmaker to the Queen.
class=Normal>
class=Normal> Daniel de St. Leu
class=Normal> Daniel de St. Leu originally came from Geneva and worked from 1753 to 1797; he created some of the most beautiful and intricate watches of the eighteenth century. In 1765 he was appointed watchmaker to Queen Charlotte, wife of King George III - the fact that all of de St. Leu's watches after this year are either signed 'Sevt. to her Majesty', or 'Watch Maker to her Majesty' is proof that he held this title for the rest of his life. De St. Leu was specialized in the production of watches for the wealthy Ottoman market, where the clientele wanted their watches to be pieces of jewellery, often in lavish gold cases with elaborate decoration and set with precious stones. In the 18th century, English watches were very much in demand on the Ottoman market and exported in great numbers from England. R. Rolt states in 'A New Dictionary of Trade and Commerce', 1756, that "Great quantities of watches are exported to Asia, particularly to Turkey; where they serve more for ornaments like pictures in rooms, than for use in pockets." Daniel de St. Leu created movements of superior quality and put them in extravagant cases - the perfect timepieces for the Ottoman market.

Estimate 24,000 - 30,000 €

(See File above).
 
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shutterbug

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It looks like he has compiled quite a bit of information from various auction sites. The quote in his message appears to be taken from a site as well, but without real proof, it's the benefit of doubt thing.
 

eri231

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From the dictionary of Osvaldo Patrizzi " Dictionnaire des Horlogers Genevois " :
"
DE SAINT LEU DANIEL (Active from 1753 to 1797). Geneva and London. Watchmaker to the Queen in 1765. Manufactures verge and cylinder escapement watches, repeating, enamelled and set with diamonds. Create a beautiful silver mantel clock for the Court of Spain.
Specialized in the manufacture of passage striking watches for the Turkish and Middle Eastern market. Its cases are sumptuous, mostly decorated with three-color gold and diamond appliques, adorned with flowers or triumphs."

From the "Liste des horlogers genevois du XVie au milieu du XIXe siècle" by Dante Gibertini
"
De Saint-Leu, clockmaker, 1780-1800."
Regards enrico
 

Allan C. Purcell

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It looks like he has compiled quite a bit of information from various auction sites. The quote in his message appears to be taken from a site as well, but without real proof, it's the benefit of the doubt thing.
Hello Stutterbug, I am not quite sure about your question, it does say above the information came from Dr Crott. and like the information from enrico, most of the information comes from auction houses. Though I have read up on Daniel De St Leu, and it appears much of the information comes from Brian Loomes. These auction house blurbs are in the main build round the watch that is for sale, take the dates at enrico´s piece, and you see the dates are wrong unless they are working dates, but again wrong. Though I am very pleased with these questions, my aim always, when building up a file is to get at the real truth, not easy and mostly impossible. The file I stated last year is now out of date, and I am now using a new file. On this new file, I will build at least one page with the found facts on Daniel De St Leu. Please watch this space....to be cont.....

Regards,

Allan.
 

aucaj

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Hello Allan,

Thank you for starting this catalog of his work. I have attached photos of Daniel St. Leu number 3011. It has London hallmarks for 1776.

Note: I reviewed some of the examples in your list. Number 2703 is hallmarked for 1771 and not 1776. Pete at Cogs & Pieces made a mistake in his description. If you review the photos on his website, you will see it is 'Q' and not an 'a'. It also makes more sense with timeline established by the other entries.

Kind Regards,
Chris

1.JPG 2.JPG 3.JPG
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Sorry I missed out on a sentence from Thomas Fawler´s will. correction below. I now think Daniel De St Leu retired when he was succeeded by Rivers & Son in 1782, though he could have worked along with them in some capacity, though there is no fact to prove that as yet. Though he lived to 1797, so what was he doing in those 15 years?
 

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aucaj

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Hi Allan,

I think you made some typos with the entry for 3011. It is hallmarked for 1776 and the inner case is gold not gilded.
However, number 2791 is gilded and not gold. The photos on their website show that most of the gilding is worn off.

R/
Chris
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Hi Chris,
Now changed, will appear on the next update. In the meantime, I have been reading a very interesting article by Michael Talbot from Greenwich University, called "Gifts of Time: Watches and Clocks in Ottoman-British Diplomacy, 1693-1803". Many of the watches mentioned include Markwick Markham, George Prior, and Daniel De St Leu. Though no flesh on the bones, so I wrote to him and will see what happens.

Allan.
 
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