Dang carbides..!

Discussion in 'Watch Repair' started by RJSoftware, Dec 29, 2015.

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  1. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Re: Dang carbides..! (some concrete examples)

    Graham,

    i never felt led down the garden path by DeCarle; I think I have 4 of his books? Gazely's books are also useful for starting out. But after those, I would skip all the nonsense we read and go straight to Archie and Jendritski.

    BTW, you kow "not my approach". I poached so much stuff who knows whose is whose at this point. But it works.
     
  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Re: Dang carbides..! (some concrete examples)

    Hi Dewey,

    If it works, and produces the correct result, then nobody should argue! We all have to remember Isaac Newton's reputed remark about standing on the shoulders of giants in arriving at a way of working.

    I like Daniels, he clearly has done it all himself, and between his explanations and David Penney's drawings, "Watchmaking" has a lot to offer, with your proviso that he does expect a reasonable level of aptitude and intelligence from his readers; a characteristic of the man himself!

    I certainly started off with De Carle, like many others, but much of his stuff now seems very dated. I do like Bill Gazeley on verges and cylinders, but then not too many other authors cover these.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  3. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    Re: Dang carbides..! (some concrete examples)

     

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  4. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Re: Dang carbides..! (some concrete examples)

    Thanks Jerry.

    I think a lot of frustration in learning this work comes from not knowing how to evaluate your own work. Can't fix the guy who simply thinks there is no reason to look; but I think we can offer ideas to those who want to improve.

    One thing we should mention is that of getting a consistent feel for the micrometer thimble or jaws of the caliper. An inconsistent compression can result in random measurements.

    Oh and LIGHT! Lots f it.

    For those who need to turn a taper to dimension (roller arbor): on a WW you set out the length and turn for the largest OD. Then you turn the small OD at the other end. You then connect the two by turning and using your precision flat to ensure you are not cutting a barrel shaped or concave taper. You actually leave the ODs oversize until you have the taper formed and are on your way; but that is the idea.

    Measurement is key. When I need to make a part from scratch (like a staff or spring detent), first thing I do is make a scale drawing. All info is transferred. For a staff all heights are taken from the bottom pivot with ODs indicated at that diameter. Heights of individual sections are also recorded. Then it is a simple matter to lay out the staff with a slide rest and rough it out with either the slide rest or graver.

    Actually, the staff drawing is a simple sketch with the info in the right places; but all lengths taken from the datum. I check my individual lengths as I measured them by summing and insuring they come out to my total height; if not I start summing from the bottom until I find the one that is incorrect. Like painting, prep is everything.

    For detents and other things that require multiple operations, I draw them out 10X scale taking my measurements directly off the screen with my caliper. I found mine, a small Nikon on ebay for $400. This reduces my measurement error to less than 1/100th mm. Again, all dimensions with the datum being the center of the locking jewel pipe (no good way to predict the final horn length).

    For me, the best way to measure lengths is with a vertical dial indicator using a precision ground anvil as the holder for the work to be measured. Zero it at the anvil and measure your lengths (heights) by placing the stylus on each shoulder. I did have to make elephant foot stylus as the normal stylus does not always provide enough room.

    Just some ideas to get people thinking. A lot of work can be done by fitting to sample; but a lot cannot and knowing some of the techniques is useful.

    BTW, at your insistence, I did buy a set of pin gauges. Very useful and very inexpensive (I think I got em new for around $40??).

    And I agree, all comparison evaluations are done under magnification. I use a 10 x loupe for turning and progress evaluation. For final inspections I use the microscope and for dimensional accuracy I use the comparator. I do however have scale in one of the microscope oculars (direct read at 10X). I think I got this (AO Zoomstar 7 to 42 with IBM 1 year old calibration sticker) from eBay with the boom stand for $200.

    Reason I will be mentioning prices is because many people think this stuff is extremely expensive. For what you get it is not, and when you are done there is close to the same value in it. Probably holds value better than the 60 hr Bunn special I bought in 1992.

    For those working on watches, we used microscopes for oiling escapements and checking the oil fill of the inca settings as well as general inspection. Set at 20X. Helps to have transmitted and reflected light ability.

    But for most people, a 10 X loupe is as far as they need to go and if used honestly, will enable an accurate assessment of their work. FWIW, I just had to add an extension on my 10X because I can no longer focus through it as originally designed.
     
  5. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Re: Dang carbides..! (some concrete examples)

    Dewey.

    Archie's books = expensive to me.

    So, of his books which do you consider the most significant?

    I got De Carle, Fried, Daniels and quite a few others. So I don't think of myself as total new-be but have been reading the books pretty extensively. Even though it may seem as some points being discussed are new-be, I have read before others who have suggested things such as using marker, measuring distances from one main point so as to avoid multiple errors adding up. Got pin gauges long time ago from reading Jerry's post. Liked the idea of a reticule but did not work as well as hoped. Not like a comparator like you have.

    De Carle is more detailed but less organized. But Fried is organized but as you said maybe some fictional. Is the shovel system of his part of that fiction? Seemed like a good answer to correctly polishing.

    Also was some debate here about the usefulness of the "turns".

    The reason I bring this up is hopefully to give you some indication of where I am and which Archie Perkins book would be best. I don't mind going back to square one but at the cost I would hopefully not have to study in redundancy.

    There is a lot of things that one can miss without a structured class. I understand this. For example, I thought it rather strange when I seen a person cutting the old balance staff of via the hub side. I had been cutting the rivet side since I started a long while back and only recently find that it's quite common to cut it out the hub side. It's said advantage is that the balance wheel is tapered so that removal of hub-side promotes balance from tearing/distortion of the rivet tearing it.

    But, I must had missed that part in the book of De Carle or Fried or who ever, you know... So things like this happen more so to those of us who do non mentored. But it is what it is.

    My favorite videos of watch repair is Steffan Pahlow. Wish I had the Roll-o-fit but have plans to make one some time soon.

    RJ
     
  6. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    RJ,

    Hade you checked out the Watch Repair Channel on youtube? Mainly focused on service and replacement of parts but it appears very professional to me. Pahlow is a personal favorite of mine as well!

    This has been discussed at length in other threads but I think it's worthy of mention that another reason for cutting the stuff from the hub is that the rivet will have work hardened from riveting in an unpredictable manner making it more risky to cut it out free handed.

    I really enjoyed reading this thread! Drilling arbors has been something I've dreaded so far but it seems a little more approachable now.
    I think the suggestion of changing the name of the thread to relate to micro drilling. "Dang carbides" is pretty secretive :).
     
  7. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    RJ,

    If you are mainly interested in lathe work at this point, then Archie's book on the WW lathe. Having said that, his restoration books are invaluable. In 2000, I likely was the only one who had the complete book. Do you know what happens when you take 15 years of monthly installments 4 pages long and staple them together? You literally wind up with a pile 2 feet high because of the staples in the left hand corner. I started scanning them but is was just too daunting.

    Think about it. At its height AWI had 6000 members, which is the max copies that could have been put together of Archie's work. Some of that 6000 threw away the magazine after they read it, that group of 6000 was not the same people over the 15 years so they had incomplete sets, some long time members let their memberships lapse from time to time and so missed installments.

    The info in those Restoration books is so invaluable that I kept that damned stack of articles unto today. Next time anyone has money in their pockets for a watch, buy the books instead.

    Lecture done.

    Yes, I understand the dilemma. having had to follow an unstructured course of learning, I felt like the the corner grocer who could feed his family but was terrified it would be discovered he could not read. This was one of several reasons i jumped at the offer to go to Switzerland. I get it.

    Turns: the debates usually devolve into something like the discussions about how a pinvise and a notched piece of wood is all you need to restore pivots.

    And, it depends on the work you do.

    The primary advantage of turns are its versatility and in restoration work where you are fitting to the existing work and need frequent removal for trial fits or measurement. It is the only way you can be certain the work is returned to the lathe centered. Then, if you have a modern one (Horia/Steiner) it is set up to ensure each tailstock attachment is at the same position as the others so you do not change your distance each time you move to another operation. Also, the lanterns provide an easy way to adjust pivots with minimum danger. And the runners from the Horia/Steiner Jacots fit the tailstock so you can adjust long work like chronometer arbors or staffs.

    It can be adapted as a swing tool for polishing and the ability to turn very slowly by pulling on the drive belt is very useful. Not for sentimental reasons, I and many others turn with the hand wheel. Has nothing to do with being artsie fartsie. Roy Hovey used to teach using it with a motor; but I now think it was more due to the difficulty in finding enough handwheels

    Let me know if I overlooked something.

    Oh, and many authorities spouted unmitigated crap. There was an AWI Atmos instructor who taught pivot polishing meant running them under a buffer and a clock construction book author who insisted that every WW lathe should have its collet drive pin removed. My goal is to point people to teachers/authors who understand how to communicate first principles and don't advocate third rate advice because most students don't want to know the truth.

    The stuff Jerry and I write is not for everyone, and I certainly make no pretense of it. I learned for fact I am far from the most skilled watchmaker in the world. I am not interested in helping people pretend they are Breguet. My goal is to help people to surpass me.

    Given the state of watch service (parts restrictions/vertical integartion), it is much harder to learn restoration today since a watchmaker is almost required to work in a service center in order to make a living; and those centers are not interested in restoration (that work gets sent back to Europe).
     
  8. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    Hey Dewey

    As you have mentioned, we all have too do what works for ourselves as individuals. I always tell students that there is really no right or wrong way as long as it is successful.

    For myself, I have taken a different road because it is the way I am.

    Frequent measurements were just not my thing, so I machine with hand wheel calibrations as a way to cut down on measurements. Machining a balance staff is a good example. Diameters and lengths are machined and only measured at the beginning and for the final pass on diameters at the end. Fitting of parts such as a roller or balance can be done with the staff mounted in the lathe. One of the things that I least enjoyed was fitting the end shack on a staff as it required several trail and error staff mountings/adjustments. This was eliminated by being able to machine half of a staff and then turn it around for the second half. By having this capability (Discussed next) I can measure staff length by measuring mounted cap jewel to cap jewel with a micrometer. I then subtract cap jewel thickness for overall length. In doing this, I am able to first machine a work piece to the proper length and not worry proper length when machining the staff itself. This of course assumes no intact example or published measurements.

    The ability to accurately machine a staff by doing one half and then the other is made possible by using a WW spindle without a collet location pin. No matter a lathe cost, brand or anything else, it will not be perfect. All lathes will have bearing runout, spindle runout, collet runout, and work piece mounting runout to some degree or another. Since there is nothing you can do about it, Why not put it to work.

    When turning a staff around for the second half, it is mounted and checked for visual runout under optics. If not running true, the collet and or work piece can be rotated and remounted until the various runouts off set each other. While it sounds complicated, I rarely have to remount more than 2-3 times to achieve required accuracy. When publicly demonstrating this, it only takes a couple of minutes even with brief discussion.

    On the other hand, pinned collet locations can be useful. If work that is to remain in a collet is to be transferred to another accessory and back to its original spindle such as a lathe, accurate original locations are very helpful. On the Sherline Lathe, adaptors are used for the use of various WW and 8MM collets. When setup per instructions, the adaptor is machined to the lathe spindle eliminating some runouts and location marked for future installations. The adaptor has no pin per normal industry collet mounting, but the collet number can be mounted in alignment with the adaptor marking if collet positioning is desirable.

    Just more options for beginners to consider.

    Jerry Kieffer
     
  9. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Hey Karl. Yes your correct. The thread is a good one, much to consider and many fine points brought out. Consider this title change approval. I think "Micro drilling advanced details" would be my suggestion. I will pm the mod.

    Interesting conversations, never even considered removing the location pin and can see some advantages and disadvantages. I think the ability to install and remove the collet may suffer to some degree but I also think that the pressures applied/gained are probably not that significant enough to be problematic.

    I get the idea of it, to promote better centering capability without the locating pin interference. Weighing out the considerations of a better acting collet action versus the ability to restore the locating pin might not be such an issue either.

    Being as the part of Fried's shovel system was not mentioned I will consider that part of the book burning session -lol... Ahk, I can't hate Fried, I just cant do it.. (my first watch repair book hey..!) sentiment.

    I have to admit I do the flip over, but still with location pin intact. What I do is just loosen the collet significantly and spin/touch the staff and test tighten the collet. Trial and error but I usually get it.

    Another thing I do, sort of cheating is I don't bother to taper the hub till later. I leave it square so when I flip I don't have to deal with grabbing a tapered roller side.

    And I admit, I do this because seems like I always have to do something for a third flip. That's why the "turns" has it's appeal for measure/cut/measure/cut...

    that and the best measure of course is where the staff is free in the jaws of a jeweled and spring closed measuring tool such as the Feintaster micrometer or similar where incorrect size measures due to angular distortions of parallel jaws given from not removing the object to be measured as held stiff from the lathe.

    On the other hand I can most definitely relate to getting the job done in nearly one swoop of a more controlled operation such as Jerry explains in the use of a Sherline and adaptions. Then we get into the computer controlled operations which I think I understand is not quite reliable to do pivots yet.

    One that you guys missed and I have not made my mind up yet on is the shellac chuck. It gives both the centering precision of turning by centers and ease of using a lathe. However, not that quite straight forward as one has to unstick by heat.

    I have yet also been able to use "boiling alcohol" to remove the shellac but find that it is easily picked off by tweezers and fingers.

    Also is the adaptions to turn by centers with the lathe. And of that there is also the Jacot drum that fits to rotating tailstock quill with arm to adjust to accommodate height.

    I have a larger clock version of this on a Lorch lathe which I plan to drill some watch sized beds on it. Either that or start with a new brass wheel to make beds on.

    Allot to consider and my guess the best arrangement would be to set the lathe up to turn by centers. But then I do have the Jacot tool...

    One does scratch one's head when trying to marry a method. So many beauties to choose from hey...!

    One is plain Jane but she makes breakfast, lunch and dinner in bed.
    The other one has Corvette like curves but can't cook toast.

    RJ
     
  10. Old Rivers

    Old Rivers Registered User
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    Jerry,

    I am very interested in the details of your procedure for turning the .018" dia. x .800" long shaft.

    I'm having a lot of trouble with work piece deflection when I attempt this; the smaller diameter extension fatigues and breaks off.

    Thanks,

    Bill
     
  11. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    Bill
    .018" x .800" per your request as follows

    (1) Always use high quality metal classified as "Machinable" or "Free Machining" . Not all metal is machinable and I would suggest purchasing from a reputable metal supplier to assure quality and helpful consultation.

    (2) Only use Lathe tools designed to machine the type of metal being machined. They should be high quality with proper profile preferably a sharp factory grind with 600 grit or finer finish.

    (3) The lathe tool cutting tip MUST be centered on the center line of spindle rotation or nothing good will happen. For Micro machining, commonly published tool setting methods are not even in the ball park. While .018" is quite large, the setting in the first attached photo under optics form the rear of the lathe, will suffice. However for fine micro machining, the setting will need to be refined until you can machine a .001" or .025mm pivot without issue.

    (4) At this point stock is mounted in a collet or chuck extending about .300" out the front where a .018" x .050" pivot that is machined to establish a cross slide hand wheel setting. Second photo. Also 1/8" stock is used as rigid support for the machining process.

    (5) The cross slide hand wheel setting now remains the same though out the procedure. Again at this point, I advance the cutter about .100" increasing the pivot length and then retracting the cutter about .125". This assures diameter, improves surface finish while also blending the finish The process is then repeated until the .300" has been completed third photo.

    (6) The stock is then extended another .300" and the above process again repeated until the total length has been completed per fourth photo.

    The same process is used to machine much smaller diameters. The fifth photo shows machining a .002" (.025 mm ) piece of bar stock. Well ok, Almost, the Micrometer shows a ever so slight miss adjustment of the hand wheel in the sixth photo.

    Cutting fluid is used in all machining operations but is not shown. In almost all circumstances, tool quality and tool settings will account for most issues.

    Jerry Kieffer

    fullsizeoutput_52.jpeg fullsizeoutput_47f.jpeg fullsizeoutput_47c.jpeg fullsizeoutput_47d.jpeg fullsizeoutput_58.jpeg fullsizeoutput_59.jpeg
     
  12. Old Rivers

    Old Rivers Registered User
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