Dammit

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by TEACLOCKS, Apr 13, 2018.

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  1. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    18 years almost 19, Been doing this. (Clock repair) clocksmithing
    1000s of clock repairs.
    1st French clock pivot.
    WOW

    I just looked up the word clocksmith, Not in the dictionary.
    another WOW.

    DSCF3803.JPG DSCF3805.JPG DSCF3806.JPG
     
  2. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    A perfect example of a riveted pivot.
     
  3. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Teaclocks, just Google the word Clocksmith and you get four different dictionary definitions plus five or six other source definitions of the word. Even my old college vintage oxford dictionary has it listed.

    And that really is an ugly looking pivot . . . .
     
  4. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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  5. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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  6. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    Believe it or not the bush is not hardly worn at all, not out of round just a small notch in the inside barely can feel it
     
  7. Randy Beckett

    Randy Beckett Registered User
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    That notch you barely feel must be a chunk of quartz imbedded in the brass.:eek:............That is one ugly pivot. Good luck with it.
     
  8. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    Yeah, I thought French clocks generally used hard steel pivots. Something was gnawing on that thing. You have to drill into a hardened Leaf Pinon/Arbor area too. That doesn't look like it will be an easy job to do well. Bonne Chance!
     
  9. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    I find it aesthetically pleasing, but not very functional, especially in the long run....

    The very first antique clock I worked on had a pivot like this. However, it was a Black Forest Shield clock, so the pivot was multiple times larger and not too hard to replace.

    Uhralt
     
  10. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Looks like you will have quite an initiation into the world of French clocks! Have fun with that one!

    RC
     
  11. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    .023" dia. pivot
     
  12. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    As I just mentioned in another thread, contaminated movement plate with abrasive from the manufacturing process. Will need to bush the pivot hole and repivot the arbor.

    Anneal the arbor if required, spot drill and drill with the highest quality drill designed for the material you are drilling to avoid issues.

    Jerry Kieffer
     
  13. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    I was going to do it by hand
    what do you think??

    30710913_1098122023706538_5297220015505545248_n.jpg
     
  14. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Yeah I can't wait to see the video!
     
  15. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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  16. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    NO Video
    Pictures

    DSCF3807.JPG DSCF3808.JPG DSCF3809.JPG DSCF3810.JPG DSCF3811.JPG DSCF3812.JPG
     
    Dave T likes this.
  17. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Looks good to go!
     
  18. woodlawndon

    woodlawndon Registered User
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    Looks good. I'm not at this level yet but the pictures help for when I am. That's one small bit.
     
  19. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Glad that you got it all fixed up, looks good. Did you anneal that end of the arbour?

    David
     
  20. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    It was not that hard, I could file if.
    .026" diameter
     
  21. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    That is one straight arbor. I'm a little surprised that you were able to keep it turning true without a steady rest. It doesn't appear that you had a lot to chuck on to either.

    Nice job. :thumb:
     
  22. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    As well done as any I've seen.
     
  23. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    I am surprised that you could use your 3 jaw chuck for this job and got the hole centered. I would use a collet and an adjustable tailstock for re-pivoting.
    But, the result is what counts!
    Uhralt
     
  24. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I was thinking the same thing. I know that images can be deceiving but looking at this blow up of the original post I can't help wonder if it really is centered so well. Maybe just one darn good 3-jaw chuck and Jacobs drill chuck, a little prayer, and a generous helping luck, or a LOT of care and skill. Proof of the pudding is in the eating, if it runs, it runs!

    RC

    pivot.jpg
     
  25. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    I repivot with my 3 jaw chuck too. Haven't had to go that small though ;)
     
  26. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    While collets are preferred for accuracy when repivoting small items, a good quality three jaw chuck and drill chuck can be used successfully in many cases if utilized properly.

    I would suggest the following for the best results.

    (1) Properly clean the chucks and spindle nose per manufacturer instructions.

    (2) Properly assemble the jaws of a three or four jaw chuck again per manufacturer instructions.

    (3) Accuracy of a three/four jaw self centering chuck depends for the most part on the accuracy and quality of the chuck scroll. Some diameters may be held very accurately while others may not. changing the clamping location and diameter on the work piece may change accuracy. Contact over the length of the jaw holding surface will also effect accuracy. The work piece may not be perfectly round, so rotating it and retightening may also produce a sweet spot.

    (4) Same is also true with the tailstock chuck. However, with the tailstock chuck, it is likely that the tailstock will be ever so slightly out of alignment (unless adjusted properly if adjustments are provided)
    It is also likely that the tailstock chuck will have runout unless it is of the highest quality. In these cases, the tailstock chuck can be rotated to a position that off sets runout and alignment provided it contain`s the more accurate MT mounting.

    In the OP`s case, I personally would have used a support only because I repivot slightly larger than original pivot size and machine back down to original size to assure a straight round centered pivot.
    However, there are cases where I do repivot to desired size if there is a reason for doing so. Then as long as the arbor runs true I would not need a support since drilling provides no side to side pressure such as machining.
    When repivoting to desired size, I first drill the hole and then select a proper friction fitting Gage pin and use a short section of it as the pivot. This greatly decreases time and drama over pivot fitting since you will always have the proper size regardless of size. From time to time when ordering supplies, I then order individual replacement Gage Pins if required.

    In an easier post I mentioned the Model Engineering show this week end. If attending and would like a demonstration regarding repivoting, straightening etc. feel free to look me up.

    Jerry Kieffer
     
  27. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    I was going to press a bushing over the pinion and use a steady rest on it.
    When I chucked it up the first try I could see the pinion was dead nuts on SO just for the hell of it I touched the end with the center drill while looking through a 10X it gave a slight wiggle then straight on, so cut a pilot hole, then with the drill.
    I was kind off amazed my self.
    I put the wheel & arbor on V blocks and checked for straight after installing the pivot wire.
     
  28. David S

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    I was more curious how you removed the original pivot and faced off the arbour. Saw and file / stone?

    David
     
  29. bkerr

    bkerr Registered User
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    Nice job!
    I would say that you have a pretty good chuck and also add that the small diameter gives you some room to play. If there is any question you could always indicate in with .005 indicator and check the run out if any. Did you harden the pivot? At any event it should last another 100 years.
     
  30. tkmc37

    tkmc37 Registered User
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    Wow, that was quite a bit of wear, and from what it appears a great repair.. I'm not really surprised by the pivot as a good deal of them were plated, that being said I have yet to see a French clock with a badly worn bush...

    Tim
     
  31. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    In eight years of working with clock movements, I've only seen one pivot which came close to this type of wear and it was the victim of an extreme job of pivot hole punching. At least, that was my assumption based on what I could see.
     
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  32. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Maybe the pivot hole was punched so badly because the pivot was worn so much and had excessive play?

    Uhralt
     
  33. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    It was a real mess Uhrait and will remain firmly planted in my memory as a way not to do things. Rathbun bushings, deeply punched pivot holes. I didn't have a Lathe at the time and had to farm out the re-pivoting job to my mentor.
    At any rate, the OP did a great job with a tricky task. :thumb:
     
  34. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Then you have probably never encountered a steel plate Ingraham with steel pivots - steel on steel, no brass bushings.

    French clocks typically don't wear out like that even with the center wheel/pinion being a loaded part of the going train so I believe the failure we saw here was likely related to something specific to this individual and perhaps to that one pivot. I wonder if any of the other pivots show unusual wear? Perhaps a lubrication failure or contamination of the brass from improper cleaning or not cleaning at all and re-oiling a dirty pivot? Perhaps the pivot wasn't properly hardened and tempered during the original manufacturing process?

    RC
     
  35. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    No, I have not seen that type of movement RC. I imagine that it can probably get pretty ugly in a contaminated/dirty, neglected environment. Am I right? I think the only reasonable recourse is what the OP opted to do, hit the reset button with new bearing materials.

    Regards,

    Bruce
     

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