D. Edmonds, Liverpool verge fusee ca.1805

[model1857guy]

My newest arrial. Marked D. Edmonds, Liverpool. Birmingham proofed for I think 1805. Was the inner case mis-proofed? Note there is no date letter but two Birmingham anchor proofs. Quite heavy.

Case maker WR, I have been unable to identify. Is it a known maker?

Been fully cleaned and serviced in August, runs and keeps really good time, only lost a minute in the last 72 hours.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I like the balance cock

 

[gmorse]

Hi 8x57mauser,

Case maker WR, I have been unable to identify. Is it a known maker?

The only one I can find in Priestley is William Ryley at St. John Street, Coventry, first registered circa 1790, so 1805 would fit. It is unusual to find two town marks, but the inner case looks as though it's been repaired at some point, and the extra anchor may be because of that.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Les harland]

Loomes Watchmakers and Clockmakers of the World lists:-
Edmonds D Liverpool (Lancashire) 1775- 1810

Losing a minute in seventy two hours is excellent for a Verge watch that age

 

[model1857guy]

Loomes Watchmakers and Clockmakers of the World lists:-
Edmonds D Liverpool (Lancashire) 1775- 1810

Losing a minute in seventy two hours is excellent for a Verge watch that age

Yeah I wasn't expecting it to do so well. My 1832 verge that I carry semi regularly will gain 1-3 minutes a day depending on the weather.

 

[model1857guy]

Hi 8x57mauser,



The only one I can find in Priestley is William Ryley at St. John Street, Coventry, first registered circa 1790, so 1805 would fit. It is unusual to find two town marks, but the inner case looks as though it's been repaired at some point, and the extra anchor may be because of that.

Regards,

Graham

That would seem logical, I'll follow that up and see if I can find any similar examples.

I'm still on the search for something 1750-1770 but a running example still eludes me, but 1805 now is my oldest so I'm creeping closer to the 18th century.

 

[gmorse]

Hi 8x57mauser,

I'm still on the search for something 1750-1770 but a running example still eludes me, but 1805 now is my oldest so I'm creeping closer to the 18th century.

They're out there in surprising numbers, considering their age, so keep on looking.

Regards,

Graham

 

[model1857guy]

Hi 8x57mauser,



They're out there in surprising numbers, considering their age, so keep on looking.

Regards,

Graham

I do see them, problem is I don't want to spend more than $1500 and I just haven't come across one that isn't already sold. Eventually I'll find one.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

They certainly go for a lot less than that here, perhaps you should consider buying here and importing one? Carriage costs would be minimal, very easy to pack.

 

[model1857guy]

They certainly go for a lot less than that here, perhaps you should consider buying here and importing one? Carriage costs would be minimal, very easy to pack.

that would be my preferred method, this 1805 came from a person in the UK I regularly buy from though they rarely have anything older than 1800

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I'll keep an eye out, I have bought from a guy on ebay before who is very reliable, and there are some well known dealers here who would still be within your budget

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Theres a nice J. Leroux fusee verge on e-bay at this moment-nice watch only problem a gilt case.

 

[John Matthews]

My newest arrial. Marked D. Edmonds, Liverpool. Birmingham proofed for I think 1805. Was the inner case mis-proofed? Note there is no date letter but two Birmingham anchor proofs. Quite heavy.

Case maker WR, I have been unable to identify. Is it a known maker?

Been fully cleaned and serviced in August, runs and keeps really good time, only lost a minute in the last 72 hours.]

Hi,

I also have a small verge signed by D Edmonds, it has a serial number 748 and is in a pair of Birmingham 1781 hallmarked cases made by Thomas Hales of Coventry. I am currently researching it and will post a thread with photographs in the coming days.

You might be interested in this later example that was posted a few years ago here.

John

 

[John Matthews]

I have now had chance to take photographs of the verge I mentioned in the previous post and to attempt to find out more information regarding D Edmonds. In the latter respect I have not been particularly successful – but here is what I have been able to find,

Loomes has Edmonds working in Liverpool from1775 to 1810, Baillie records a watch in the Ilbert collection dated 1780 and in Watch and Clock Makers of the World the dates given are 1787 to 1810. In addition, in an earlier thread one of his watches was in hallmarked cases from 1817/18.

Dave Green's post in that thread, is particularly informative and includes reference to nine watches/movements of Edmonds in the Liverpool Museum collection. Unfortunately, the collections are not accessible online. The museum's database lists D Edmonds as a watchmaker from 1787 to 1800 with a reference to Buckley under the heading directory. I am not familiar with a Buckley trade directory so I have been unable to take this any further. The database also has a B Edmonds operating in Liverpool from 1778 to 1829 – this reference is taken from Baillie. I am wondering whether this might be the same maker, as I have not found any other reference to B Edmonds in my searches. It would help explain the examples of D Edmonds work post 1810.

Apart from the 9 examples in the Liverpool collection, I have reference to 7 watches, all in silver cases.

#784 verge pair case by Thomas Hales, Coventry, hallmark Birmingham1781/2

#3078 verge pair case (sold in USA with watch papers from New Orleans & Boston)

#? verge pair case hallmark Birmingham 1803/04

#3550 verge pair case by William Ryley, Coventry, hallmark Birmingham 1805/06

#5450 verge pair case by Vale & Co., Coventry, hallmark Birmingham 1818/19 (sold in USA)

#6846 verge pair case by Samuel Packwood, Coventry, hallmark Birmingham 1817/18 (Massachusetts watch paper)

#9114 verge pair case by William Howard, Coventry, hallmark Birmingham 1819/20 (Newfoundland watch papers)​

So we have Edmonds working in Liverpool from ~1775 to ~1820, producing verge movements housed in Coventry pair cases and, as might be inferred from these surviving examples, a significant portion finding there way to the eastern seaboard of the USA.

John

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

#5450 verge pair case by Vale & Co., Coventry, hallmark Birmingham 1818/19 (sold in USA)

Vale & Co was an earlier manifestation of the company that became Rotherhams, and existed between 1790 and 1822, when it became Vale & Rotheram, and shortly afterwards in 1823, Vale, Rotherham & Son. The missing 'h' in the 1822 name is not a typo by the way.

I'd have thought that a Vale case would contain a Vale movement, since they were styled as 'Watch & Case Makers', so perhaps this one is a re-case or a 'private label'.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

Hi Graham,

Here is the link to the auction site - the watch was sold last month in Marshalltown, Iowa, so it is possible it was picked up by a member. You are right it could be a re-case, but don't you think other makers at the time might have used Vale's cases?

Yes, now you remind me, I remember Rotheram to Rotherham - Priestley relates it to a change in the spelling of the Yorkshire town.

Regards,

John

 

[gmorse]

Hi John,

but don't you think other makers at the time might have used Vale's cases?

Yes, that might be so, but I think it's also possible that Vale made the movement as well and signed it for Edmonds, who ordered it. It has a transitional regulator, which is quite plausible for 1819.

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Matthews]

#5450 verge pair case by Vale & Co., Coventry, hallmark Birmingham 1818/19 (sold in USA)

#9114 verge pair case by William Howard, Coventry, hallmark Birmingham 1819/20 (Newfoundland watch papers)

First an apology - I made a couple of mistakes with the dates when working from my notes, the above should read

#5450 verge pair case by Vale & Co., Coventry, hallmark Birmingham 1819/20 (sold in USA)

#9114 verge pair case by William Howard, Coventry, hallmark Birmingham 1807/08 (Newfoundland watch papers)

Graham - #9114 also has a transitional regulator.

Regards

John

 

[model1857guy]

First an apology - I made a couple of mistakes with the dates when working from my notes, the above should read

#5450 verge pair case by Vale & Co., Coventry, hallmark Birmingham 1819/20 (sold in USA)

#9114 verge pair case by William Howard, Coventry, hallmark Birmingham 1807/08 (Newfoundland watch papers)

Graham - #9114 also has a transitional regulator.

Regards

John

Thanks for doing all the digging, I'll save it with the info I have on the watch. It's fun digging up all this history, after al these were normal people like all of us. It's not just a watch produced in large numbers at some factory, there is a personal human connection.

 

[John Matthews]

My second late C18th D Edmonds verge cases have suffered with the passing years, but the movement is in good condition and is working strongly, albeit fast. The dial has a number of hairline cracks and some minor edge chips and at the centre. I believe that both the dial and the hands are probably original, as I have seen identical examples on other Liverpool watches of the same period.

The pair cases are clearly hallmarked for Birmingham 1792/93. Unfortunately, the maker's marks are not at all clear, which makes the determination of case maker difficult. Having looked at the marks hard and long, my best interpretation is 'HH' incuse. If I'm correct, this would likely be the mark of Henry Harding of Will Street, Coventry, registered in Birmingham circa 1783. All of the other D Edmonds cased examples known to me, as listed above, have Birmingham hallmarks and Coventry cases. The box also has a stamped cross, the significance of which is not clear to me and the outer case has what might be the first letter 'R' of a second maker's mark.

I would very much welcome thoughts on these hallmarks.

The pendant on this watch is longer than my other Edmonds verge and it seems that both long and short pendant watches co-existed throughout the C18th, although the shorter pendants were less common, I believe, at the beginning of the century. Camerer Cuss suggests that the long pendant was favoured while movements remained 'deep' and that the 'thick' cases were easier to remove from the pocket with a long pendant. These two Edmonds watches are equally 'thick', so I just wondered whether any other explanations have been proposed.

John

 

[Keith R...]

I have but two verges, one from 1811 (Champion) and the other from 1821 that are
within 1 minute per day. You guys should cherish the accuracy on any verge.

I'd say most of my levers such as J. Johnson or MI Tobias are dead on for the most
part.

Nice watches guys!

Keith R...

PS.....The unmentioned verge has case maker HH, Hanna Howard, a bit
later than John's date.

 

[John Matthews]

I have re-opened this thread after having a conversation with Keith. It caused me to search for Champion, and on the AH site I found a couple of articles by A Treherne. The first will be well known to many of you, part 1 of his paper on Contributions of SW Lancashire and the second a review of McKenna's Clock & Watch Makers of the Midlands. In both the signatures of Edmunds and Champion are mentioned as signatures that 'were ordered' for Coventry watches destined for export to America. This appears to be consistent with the brief research I did on Edmund signed watches.

Alan refers to the Stub's papers archived at Manchester Central Library, I believe, - does anyone know if there are any articles that cover the content in detail?

For those of you who have access the articles are in AH 27/03 & 31/04.

John

View attachment 476980
View attachment 476981

 

[John Matthews]

I should have included this snip of an invoice from the Stubs papers in the Manchester Library archive, taken from Alan Treherne's SW Lancashire paper of June 2009 (AH 31/04). To answer my previous question ... as far as I can see most of the references seem to lead back to Alan's research of the papers, as presented in papers and talks in the AH.

John

 

[Keith R...]

Thanks John, my no name guy has lasted so far. Only in America. Keeps excellent time!
As stated both cases HM 1811.

I forgot about another that does show up in Baillies for 1803. Runs full length of the chain
but + about 20 minutes in 24. Dublin chap. He's in the book for 1802 but the case HM is
1803.

PS.......Humor for the day. There was a seller with a rack lever and the cases were
made by my guy in my 1834 verge. I sent him a pic of my case maker initials and front
watch photo. Instead of thanking me for the case makers info, he told me with my dial, he
could not possibly make me an offer on the watch. hmmm

Keith R...

 

[John Matthews]

Hi Keith,

I think HH incuse for your 1811 Champion, is probably Henry Harding, rather than Hannah Howard. Priestley has the registration for Hannah 29 May 1816, The registration is logged as Hannah Howard (late William Howard) and William Howard's last registration was 3/2/1813 - after your case was hallmarked. I am making the assumption that it is a Birmingham hallmark.

John

 

[Keith R...]

I'll have to look John, thanks.

Thank you John, so noted. Had to check the cover to make sure. Sometimes
these guys jumped around with regions.

Keith R...