D. Edmonds Liverpool 1817 Fusee Pocket watch?

[mr3474]

I am trying to fully identify this pocket watch. What I can find it appears to date to 1817, Birminham. Sterling. Hallmarks are lower case "t", anchor, and crouching lion. The mechanism is stamped D. Edmonds Liverpool 6846. It is in beautiful condition and shows service 1822, and again in 1848. Fob coins date to 1904, the chain ca. 1890 Henry Pope Birmingham. The exterior watch case is marked sterling (lion) but it appears differently with a darker patina than sterling (it doesn't have the same patina as the inside). Did they plate these externally in something else, white gold maybe? Also the movement appears to be gold? Pics attached. Thanks for your comments. Any and all information is much appreciated.

 

[DaveyG]

D Edmonds is listed in Baillie's and by Dr Kemp as working, in Liverpool between 1787 & 1810. The fact that your watch dates from outside this period is, perhaps, supported by the fact that Dr Kemp also indicates that there are 9 watches/movements attributed to Edmonds in the Liverpool Museum and these bear hall marks between 1775 - 1804 all of these having verge escapements. It is frequently the case that watches appear that fall outside noted work periods as crafstmen's recorded work periods are determined by evidence of hallmarks on cases of watches bearing their name and local trade directories (in Edmonds case the Gore's Liverpool Directory published between 1766-1919). If cases haven't been seen or the tradesman was not listed in the directory (perhaps he wouldn't pay for the entry?) then the evidence is not there. The only time that firm, finite evidence can be found is where the tradesman's records of both introduction and death are recorded by the Clockmaker's Company.

Your watch seems to be a fairly average watch of the period with, presumably, a verge escapement. The plates are not gold but gilded brass. Mercurial fire gilding was a (very dangerous and harmful) process whereby gold dust was fused to the brass plate to give the appearance of gold and, primarily, to protect the brass from corrosion.

There is not, normally, any plateing of the external surfaces of silver cases barring silver gilt which produced a case looking as if it is gold. I suspect that the discrepancy that you note is due to the fact that the inner of the outer case was never polished to the extent of the rest of the case surfaces all of which would be finished with "red stuff". The inside of the outer case would almost always be covered by a protector so not visible. This would be done to prevent chaffing between the two case surfaces which is both unsightly and introduces the dust product into the watch

Hope this helps

 

[mr3474]

Thanks for the info. I assumed that the watch dates to 1817, due to the date markings (t). Your information appears to predate this. Any idea how I can nail it down? Regards

 

[MartyR]

The date of the caase is 1817. Unless the watch was recased (which is unlikely), or was first case some years after it was made, 1817 is therefore the date of the watch.

As Davey exoplained, the dates of makers are unreliable due to the limitation of source data. The watch is the best evidence that Edmonds was working in 1817.

The darker outer surfaces of the case could be the result of oxidisation of the silver, which can be caused by over-polishing with abrasive coupled with exposure to damp.

 

[mr3474]

Thanks, I understand now. Regards.

 

[mr3474]

I need a winding key for this watch. can you point me in the right direction? Thanks

 

[DaveyG]

Check out Pocket Watch Tools and Parts on the bay. A complete set can be had for little money.

I would suggest, if you propose to run the watch on a regular basis that you have it cleaned and serviced by someone familiar with these old timepieces before you do, unless it has been done recently of course. Running a 'dry' watch is like running yoour car without oil. If there is no-one that you know of who can do that for you you might try to contact someone from you nearest NAWCC Chapter and seek advice.

Also, remember that they are wound by turning the key ANTI clockwise. Turn it clockwise and you stand a chance of breaking the chain.

 

[mr3474]

Thanks, it was restored in 1973 and has been in a safe, so it needs to be checked out before running. rgds

 

[Jeff Hess]

did anyone notice the possible keen Colonial american interest in this peice. repaired by THE luther goddard of shrewsbury?

 

[DaveyG]

Well I didn't Jeff! Unless one looks carefully the casual 'glancer' from the UK (who probably wouldn't be too familiar with Luther Goddard) would pretty much assume Shrewsbury, England. Watch paper more desirable than the watch?

 

[Les harland]

I need a winding key for this watch. can you point me in the right direction? Thanks

You can get a set of keys from Amazon
One should fit your watch and any others you get in future

 

[DaveyG]

Since the request for locating a key was made 6 years ago I'd sort of hope he'd found one by now Les

 

[Les harland]

Since the request for locating a key was made 6 years ago I'd sort of hope he'd found one by now Les

I would hope so too
I did not realise this was an old thread that had been resurected and did not check the date on the post