After 1900 CYMA Movement Pocket watch? 21 Jewel Ref 969 Date 1933

svenedin

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Another one of my pocket watches. This one my father used a lot. It has Birmingham hallmarks for 1933. It has its original flat glass which looks so much better than a plastic glass. No retailer's name on the dial. Perhaps there was once and it has been lost. Dennison "Regular" 9ct gold case. This is the standard thickness of gold. There is also a "Special" which sounds good but is actually made of thinner gold. Not "Special" at all!

A very pretty 21 jewel movement with micro regulation marked "Stockmar" and REF 969 near the balance. Cut bimetallic balance, Breguet overcoil hairspring in blued steel. Côtes de Genève decoration.

I though this movement might be made by CYMA but there is no 969 listed on Ranfft.

Does anybody know who made this movement?

IMG_8785.jpeg IMG_8786.jpeg IMG_8787.jpeg IMG_8788.jpeg IMG_8789.jpeg
 
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svenedin

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Bridges look like a Cyma 961 (19 lignes) but the ratchet wheel and upper crown wheel on my movement are reversed compared to the 961.
 

svenedin

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What about a 940 with the tail on the bridge cut off? The basic train layouts are similar, the bridges change.
While Dr Ranfft's site is marvellous, not every watch is pictured.
Yes that looks very similar and as you say the train layout is the same. Nice chatons on my movement. They appear to be gold. With that single bridge for the train it looks like getting the bridge in place could be a challenge. I had the dial off earlier. No manufacturers name found. Nice 2 piece dial. A separate seconds dial. Shame the dial has hairlines.

IMG_8843.jpeg
 
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svenedin

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It looks to be a very nice piece.
Thank you. Yes it is. Pocket watches are interesting aren't they. The case is obviously quality but it's very reserved and there's no indication whatsoever that the case contains an interesting high-end movement. So different from the modern wristwatches that scream their brand and demand "look at me". The only people who knew what movement was in that watch were the person who bought it and their watchmaker.
 
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Dr. Jon

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I have found a possible match from Medana and Roamer who had a large factory in SOLEURE and Offices in London as Medana. It is their cal 158 from La Classification Horlogere.
 

svenedin

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Thank you very much Roughbarked and Dr Jon. Roamer 158 looks like an excellent match. The only puzzle is why the movement is marked “ref 969” which does fit better with Cyma calibre numbers.
 

DaveyG

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I have a feeling, call it a distant memory if you like, that the Ref 969 is associated with the Tavannes Watch Co rather than Cyma. I think that Cyma was a brand name used by Tavannes to distribute watches through a particular network and Schwob Freres sticks in my mind. I don't recall the exact relationship. I have most certainly, in the past, handled many Tavannes Ref 969 and 999 movements and always found them to be of very good quality. I suggest that the Roamer etc connections are their use of Tavannes ebauche.
 

svenedin

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I have a feeling, call it a distant memory if you like, that the Ref 969 is associated with the Tavannes Watch Co rather than Cyma. I think that Cyma was a brand name used by Tavannes to distribute watches through a particular network and Schwob Freres sticks in my mind. I don't recall the exact relationship. I have most certainly, in the past, handled many Tavannes Ref 969 and 999 movements and always found them to be of very good quality. I suggest that the Roamer etc connections are their use of Tavannes ebauche.
Thank you. That makes sense. There are no documents to find but on the Cousins UK website, a search for movement parts reveals a mainspring for "Cyma Tavannes 969".

It's a slightly unusual movement to find in a watch for the British market. Most Swiss movements were simply gilded which matched the finish of earlier English movements but there was a move to nickel finishes by 1933. It also has an unusually high jewel count for a British market, Swiss movement, pocket watch of this era. Most were 15 jewel with some 16 and 17.
 
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DaveyG

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Again from memory, but I feel sure that in the past I have handled 21jwl Tavannes movements in watches retailed by both J W Benson and Thomas Russell with nickel (plated?), spotted plates. I have no memory of any with that 'Geneva' stripe finish.
 

svenedin

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Again from memory, but I feel sure that in the past I have handled 21jwl Tavannes movements in watches retailed by both J W Benson and Thomas Russell with nickel (plated?), spotted plates. I have no memory of any with that 'Geneva' stripe finish.
Interesting. I collect watches by JW Benson and I have to admit I've never seen these movements in a Benson pocket watch. I must have looked at pictures of hundreds, if not thousands of Benson pocket watches so they must be unusual. Cyma Tavannes and Revue movements are very standard in Benson watches though. The common movements being Cyma Tavannes 938/939 and Revue 31. I am not at all familiar with the Thomas Russel watches but yes, the movements I have seen are often nickel plated.
 

Dr. Jon

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One pf the reasons I jumped on Roamer is that their catalog prominently features their British offices and this watfhc was clearly made for the English market..

The catalog page, which is copyright so I can't post it shows severaal moement and this one is very differnt from the others on teh page so it may have been largely bought in from Tavannes but I think it went via the Roamer distribution system.
 

roughbarked

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Thank you very much Roughbarked and Dr Jon. Roamer 158 looks like an excellent match. The only puzzle is why the movement is marked “ref 969” which does fit better with Cyma calibre numbers.
The only mention of 969 in relation to Cyma
From Dr Ranfft's pages:
Example, year: signature; shock device
ca. 1955: 969, Cyma, R265, Tavannes Switzerland, 25 Jewels; Kif-Flector.
He's talking about the Cyma R265, which is actually an AS 1674. Maybe Dr Ranfft could tell us why 969 is there or is that a serial number?


One thing I want to know, is what does the screw head seen between the balance and the crown wheel do?
On the Roamer 158 that is.
 
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Dr. Jon

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The ine at the edge of the movement is case screw. English and American watches are secured in teh case by the dial on one side supported around its edge and screws with the heads touching down on the back or movemnt side of the case.

The Swiss usually put the screws to secure against the dial side of the case.

The blue screw on the opposite side of the winding wheel is probably to secure the stem. It pulls a part called the detent down into a notch in the stem. With the screw tight, pulling the stem moves the detent to engage the setting. This screw gets loosened to remove the stem but only far enough to release the detent from the stem notch. If it goes too far it disengages the watch has to be disassembled to get the detent engaged again. It is probably blue to identify it because it is further away from the stem than usual.

It is a nicely finished watch.
 

Dr. Jon

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Probably the screw holds a plate that carries the escapement holes. This was a common feature of earlier Geneva bar movements. That is the lower plate is made in two parts. This was usually done to accommodate both lever and cylinder escapements with the same basic plate.

On some watches a screw in this position holds the dial but the pictures posted of this dial rules that out.
 

svenedin

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Hi Stephen,

This one?

View attachment 715012

Regards,

Graham
I am not sure what that screw is for. I should have taken a picture with the dial off but did not. I will investigate next time I have the movement out. This watch is negative set so there is no stem securing screw mentioned in post #16. That screw is not blue either but is a trick of the light.
 

DaveyG

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I am not sure what that screw is for.
I suggest that the screw may be a 'blank' that fills a threaded hole which would secure the centre wheel/3rd wheel bar when the top plate is utilised for a Swiss bar movement like 'here'
 

roughbarked

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Thank you very much Roughbarked and Dr Jon. Roamer 158 looks like an excellent match. The only puzzle is why the movement is marked “ref 969” which does fit better with Cyma calibre numbers.
The pallet cock on your Ref 969, is defiinitely more Cyma/Tavannes than MST Roamer/Medana.

You know that if you take the dial off, more may be revealed.
 
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svenedin

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There was some speculation in this thread about what certain screws were for so here is a photo of the dial side. Movement has a nice dust ring too.

IMG_8874.jpeg IMG_8875.jpeg IMG_8876.jpeg
 
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svenedin

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Yes definitely Cyma. One day your question about the screw will be answered but to be honest I don't fancy working on this movement at the moment. I don't like the hairlines on the dial and so I will not use this watch. My father caused the hairlines and hated them too. I would swap the dial if I could actually find an identical dial.

I think the other end of your screw is hiding under the minute wheel perhaps? Or maybe that screw actually forms a post for the intermediate wheel?
 
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