Crutch Adjustment - is this too out of level to attempt it?

[Lynsey]

Hello everyone! As some of you know, I have been duelling with this Gilbert for months. She ran successfully all night long and now it is time to make the final adjustments.

I have been studying the Beat 101 articles and have deduced that the right side of the case needs to be lifted almost 5/8 of an inch for complete happiness. I do understand that the further you get from the source (or target), the higher the correction is needed (elevation adjustment).

Given the severity of the lift needed, is it reasonable to attempt a direct crutch adjustment or is it too out of whack

 

[Rod Schaffter]

That's not a lot; adjust the crutch...

 

[Kevin W.]

I dont see why it cant be adjusted. It ran in this case before.

 

[wow]

Yes. Adjust the crutch in the case. It should be easy to do without shims.

 

[Lynsey]

I had it. I really did. Then I forgot myself and adjusted it when it did not need adjustment. I have it ticking now, but that minute hand is some freakin stiff to turn. Brandy new cannon pinion was the reason for the rebuild. Last night, it ran for 6 hours and then stopped. The saga continues.

 

[bruce linde]

the minute hand should not be hard to turn... it should be somewhere between 'so loose it flops' and 'gee, it feels like it might bend if it were any harder to turn'... erring on the 'loose' side. you need to figure out what's going on.

 

[Lynsey]

Aw, geeze, Bruce. I just got it running. You are right. Grasshoppa will take it apart again. The striking sounds off too. The glass is too tight. I just spun it around to set the correct time and it did not strike 9. It has a very bad attitude, one of us needs a time out. Just let me get this aggravating Haas back on the wall. Big snowstorm due so if it goes flying out the window, it will land in a nice soft snowbank. Thank you for pushing me to do the right thing. Just like paying taxes.

 

[roughbarked]

Keep at it.

 

[shutterbug]

You can just move the hour hand to match the strike number on that one. That's easier

 

[Lynsey]

Thank you, Shutterbug. I agree. But here's an interesting observation. Do we become deaf to the clocks after a while? Sometimes, I swear a clock did not strike/chime at all and I find myself having to wait for next quarter hour to find out. But, alas, the raccoon syndrome kicks in and I forget all about it.

This GIlbert quit 50 minutes after I went to bed last night. There is definitely something rotten in Winstead-ville. But, I will get to it after I install a pair of spent 30-06 cartridges inside the Haas case.

 

[PatH]

Do we become deaf to the clocks after a while? Sometimes, I swear a clock did not strike/chime at all and I find myself having to wait for next quarter hour to find out. But, alas, the raccoon syndrome kicks in and I forget all about it.

Definitely! By 3/4 and hour, I generally hear them, but for some reason I often miss 1/4 and 1/2 - guess the noise doesn't go on long enough to get my attention earlier. Having said that, with several striking/chiming clocks around the house, I generally don't pay attention until one isn't....

 

[Lynsey]

Good Evening, everyone. I have inspected this Gilbert. No errant springs or spring wire found. I believe it was the cannon pinion that failed and I replaced it this spring. Please have a gander at the photo and tell me if it is possible that the tri-lobed spring washer could be too tight and binding up the minute hand. Yes, it is less than elegant. Much appreciation sent your way. Lynsey PS should I start a new thread regarding the minute hand? This was started re the crutch issue.

 

[shutterbug]

No need to start another thread. It's actually better to keep everything about one clock in the same thread.
Now about that cannon pinion. It is turned by the second wheel in the train, so is not really a part of the train. In fact, the movement would run just fine without it in there at all So the spring you refer to has no impact on the clock running. It only comes into play when you move the hands, and that's the only thing it is there for. However, if something else about the center arbor is binding (like the cannon pinion rubbing against another wheel), it could stop things. I think your problem is elsewhere though.

 

[roughbarked]

You have oiled it, right?

 

[Lynsey]

Yes, it was freshly oiled. I have a question. Please do not crucify me for a dumb one but here it is.

I let the springs down. I removed the "verge", the fly and the escape wheel. The minute hand turns merrily.
I add back the EW and the verge and we are back to a hard turn. If you put make any attempt to hinder the EW, the minute hand will not turn easity. My brain is mud pie right now. I will keep observing and I will probably find something soooooo stupid.

Hope this gives you all chuckles, but if you have sympathy....gimme a hint, eh? Thanks, Lynsey the "Whatta Doozie" King.
ps. I put the verge in quotes because someone said it was not a verge. I forget who that was, so I am covering all bases.

 

[DannyBoy2k]

If you remove the escape wheel, then, when you go to turn the minute hand, the whole train is going to move rather than the "clutch" slipping. So, the 3-lobed spring doesn't come into play with the escape wheel removed. (Well, that's what I think it would do in my head. I've never actually tried this before.) That is, unless you held the train in place with the escape wheel removed so the clutch would be slipping.

It sounds like the resistance you are feeling is just the friction of that spring sliding on the back of the gear. However, as shutterbug said, that wouldn't explain the clock stopping.

~Dan

 

[roughbarked]

The canon is meant to be friction slip. ie: that it will turn when the wheels turn but be more difficult to turn when the wheels cannot easily spin.
If this is too tight there can be a few reasons why. One is that though oiled, it may not be oiled in the correct places. Not saying you haven't but it is one reason why it can be tight.
As shutterbug mentioned, it may be binding. This another reason it may seem hard to move.
If the clock is stopping it really shouldn't be because the canon is tight.
Which is why shutterbug suggested that the problem is somewhere else.

 

[Lynsey]

Thank you, Roughbarked and Dannyboy. I am going to examine this bit by bit to see whats up with the canon. I will verify correct lubrication as well. I just need to find a bigger hammer. Much appreciation! Shutterbug, I will look for rubbing somewhere too.

 

[Lynsey]

I may have a clue. Is there supposed to be a washer between the new pinion bearing and the bottom "has a hollow shaft" thingy?

Second clue is a notation I found in my record book stating "brass washer fell off of center post."

Your thoughts please?

 

[DannyBoy2k]

Lynsey, I'm looking at the pictures you posted in your original Gilbert thread (https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/how-to-split-this-gilbert.167159/) and these here. I think, maybe, you're missing a washer between the 3 lobed spring and the taper pin through the arbor? Hard to tell because of the patina/grime on the parts. If that's true, the 3-lobed spring would be free to rotate with the gear and the washer would remain stationary against the pin. Seems like that would lower your friction of turning your hand with the clutch in action and maybe explain the washer?

EDIT: Photo in question - https://mb.nawcc.org/attachments/gilbert-gear-underside-jpg.575340/

That said, the clutch (3-lobed spring) only comes into play when you're moving the hands yourself. Still doesn't explain the stoppage.

~Dan

EDIT2: I've convinced myself I'm seeing things and there is no extra washer between the tapered pin and pressure washer. Not sure where your extra washer might go. The new pinion and hour pipe/gear (hollow shaft thingy) should definitely not be rubbing against each other, though, if you're observing that.

 

[Nannas400]

Hello everyone! As some of you know, I have been duelling with this Gilbert for months. She ran successfully all night long and now it is time to make the final adjustments.

I have been studying the Beat 101 articles and have deduced that the right side of the case needs to be lifted almost 5/8 of an inch for complete happiness. I do understand that the further you get from the source (or target), the higher the correction is needed (elevation adjustment).

Given the severity of the lift needed, is it reasonable to attempt a direct crutch adjustment or is it too out of whack View attachment 626975

Hi, novice Peter here.
I see Lynseys post with interest, just like my Urgos. Now I need to know what adjustment can cure this, i shall try to attach picture (novice there, too). Any offers of help gratefully received. I took the movement from the case, and it is plainly working only when one side down. Also made vide

That's not a lot; adjust the crutch...

 

[Nannas400]

Hi, novice Peter here.
I see Lynseys post with interest, just like my Urgos. Now I need to know what adjustment can cure this, i shall try to attach picture (novice there, too). Any offers of help gratefully received. I took the movement from the case, and it is plainly working only when one side down. Also made vide

Thanks Rod, would that be the two screws holding the bridge to the backplate? I ask because i saw a scary reference to bending things somewhere.

 

[Rod Schaffter]

Thanks Rod, would that be the two screws holding the bridge to the backplate? I ask because i saw a scary reference to bending things somewhere.

We'd have to see your movement; the bending referred to is bending the crutch wire that connects the pendulum to the escapement verge...

 

[Nannas400]

We'd have to see your movement; the bending referred to is bending the crutch wire that connects the pendulum to the escapement verge...

Hi Rod, thanks for help.
I will post a pic if I can ever get it to load from phone. In the meantime, with your help I now see that my Urgos clock has a pressed brass crutch, rather than a wire, and with great fear i moved it on the anchor mounting rod, which has centralised it nicely...remains to be seen if the amount of pendulum swing is adequate, and it looks like (screw marks) somebody has had the bridge bracket undone in the past (at top of pendulum spring) .
I may even try to post a video.
For now, running level, many thanks, Peter