Help Cracked Shroud Bent Trundles

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by steamer471, Nov 27, 2019.

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  1. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    I'm working on an old gallery clock with a Welch movement circa 1860. Overall the movement looked good with no really bad wear. But when I inspected the strike second wheel I found the lantern pinion shroud cracked and a few of the trundles bent. All the teeth on the main wheel are good. I suspect someone really cranked down on it. Not having a lathe or the skills to use one is there any other way to repair this? I thought about solder but don't know if I can trust it.

    20191127_065740.jpg 20191127_065825.jpg 20191127_065756.jpg 20191127_065704.jpg
     
  2. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    From the picture I can't tell that the shroud is cracked. If it is not, I would just replace the trundles as usual. Or do you mean the line on the circumference of the shroud, close to the outer end? I think you could leave that alone, it shouldn't compromise the stability of the lantern pinion in a meaningful way.

    Uhralt.
     
  3. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I Agree with Uhralt. I suspect the "crack" on the circumference may have been a flaw in the original brass. I would replace all the trundles so they match.

    RC
     
  4. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    The picture is deceiving, I also closed the crack a bit with my plyers. the third picture shows it best.
     
  5. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    That's it
     
  6. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    It's not a radial crack, and I wouldn't worry about it. I'm with the other guys.

    See Lantern Pinion Repair.
     
  7. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Yep. That crack probably looked like that on the fine sunny day it left the factory in Connecticut, where nobody there thought it was a big deal either. The trundles probably got bent when a mainspring broke, so check all the teeth on the great wheel. Tell ya the truth, those trundles don't look bent enough to bother anything, so if the great wheel teeth look okay and if the clock runs okay------

    ----ahh, replace them anyway. Saw each of the old trundles in half, dig 'em out, broach out the old staking, cut new trundles out of some nice pivot wire (hardness is immaterial) and hold the new trundles in with either a dot of red Loctite or a close-fitting washer pressed down onto the arbor. (Or both.) The trundles shouldn't rotate.

    I changed my mind on the basis of several clocks I've had recently that suffered intermittent run problems traced to funny-looking teeth. While you're at it, have a look at Dave LaBounty's article on planishing wheel teeth, which doesn't look like it does much but which raises old great wheels from the dead.
     
  8. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    Thanks for the replies. I inspected the trundles again and the only that is bent is at the center of the crack so I suspect that has something to do with it. Considering the lack of wear on all of them this maybe the result of a previous repair. I'll leave it be and check the teeth on the great wheel. Thanks again.
     
  9. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    You can straighten a slightly bent trundle wire using a screwdriver. The blade needs to be ground to be half the width of the exposed wire and almost as thick as the space between the trundles. With the bent trundle just so, apply a twisting force from the root of a good wire to the center of the bent wire. It will bend back to straight easier than you may think.

    This may be your best option being as your trundles aren't worn and the cap has a material flaw.

    WIllie X
     
  10. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree with my colleagues on this one. Any irregularity in the trundles will cause uneven spacing of the trundles and accelerate wear of the great wheel teeth. These trundles are mild steel and prying one against another is inviting trouble (and my increase that crack as well). In my opinion, whenever there is a damaged trundle the best solution is to replace all the trundles with tempered pivot wire of the same size. Mild steel trundle pins can usually just be snipped with wire cutters. Great care should be used to not enlarge the holes in the shroud beyond the original diameter. I usually grind one end of the length of the pivot wire from which the pins will be cut like a "spade drill". Held in a pin vice the "drill" will clear the staking and not enlarge the hole. Skip the Loctite and restake the shroud as it was originally except at a different angle to get "fresh meat".

    I agree with others, carefully check the great wheel teeth for damage. Also install just that second wheel between the plates and spin it to make sure the arbor isn't bent. Not sure if the bending of the trundle is related to the crack in the shroud. If the crack is deep and appears unstable then you may need to go to plan "B" (or "C" or "D"). in which case replacing that shroud might be the preferred option, otherwise there are a couple "alternative methods" that will work but could land you in th hall of shame museum.

    RC
     
  11. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I'll be there to welcome you.
     
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  12. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Straightening a pinion wire is routine for me, when wear is not a problem. I expect no problems in doing this simple procedure but it does take a little practice. Willie X
     
  13. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    Had a little time today and tried what Wille suggested and surprising enough to me it worked almost to easily. The offending trundle is straight again and they all spin true in their shrouds. What concerns me is the crack extends almost the span of three trundles. If the crack progresses, the piece that comes off will allow one of the trundles not to have a cap. I also assembled the train and everything spins good with no binding and the wheels are in good shape. Considering the lack of wear on this pinion, as opposed to the others, also knurling on the arbor near the shroud I believe this is a result of a botched repair. The only apparent bushings needed on this movement are the main wheels. It would appear I have reached the point of purchasing a lathe if I want to advance my skills any further. Thanks all!
     
  14. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    I doubt that a piece of the shroud will come off. There is no force in that direction that might cause it to break off. I think this was a material fault from the beginning and hasn't changed over the life of the clock. I wouldn't worry about it.

    Uhralt
     
  15. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    <<"It would appear I have reached the point of purchasing a lathe if I want to advance my skills any further.>>

    Maybe. What operations do you think a lathe will allow you to do that you cannot do right now, or perhaps after applying some creativity? I ask because while I have a large machinist's lathe (nothing impressive: it's a Grizzly 3-in-1 lathe mill drill) I very seldom use it for clock repair. The last few lathe occasions have involved manufacturing bushings for winding arbors, and I've just noticed that Timesavers has a new selection of those, pre-made, in different sizes you can pick from, hooray.

    Everything else: pivot polishing, re-pivoting, weird drilling, and the very light turning typically required in clock work can be done nicely on my bogus no-tailstock, drill-chuck fako lathe, which could be equally well emulated with an electric drill affixed horizontally to the workbench. It's not a matter of basic stinginess: I've been ready to purchase a Sherline or some other lathe for years now, but the occasion never seems to present itself.

    Now, my setup is actually fairly nice, having evolved over the years. A sewing machine motor and belt from eBay turns a 1/2" countershaft supported in ball-bearing pillow blocks, also from eBay. The shaft was made from the longest 1/2" machine bolt I could find, and onto this a 1/2" Jacobs drill chuck from Harbor Freight Tools threads nicely. A variable-speed foot-pedal control--an electronic one purchased from eBay because the foot pedal controller supplied with the sewing machine motor finally fell apart (and wasn't so safe to begin with) controls the whole thing.

    I can chuck a three-inch grinding wheel or wire brush or buffing pad into the thing for quick jobs, and the chuck grabs most clock arbors without difficulty for pivot polishing. I've even done some turning with a watchmaker's graver, which surprised me when it actually worked.

    There are any number of books on watchmaking and clock repair which state unequivocally that the lathe is the king of tools, and that you, you peasant, should not even consider removing the back of a clock without one. I strongly disagree, believing that as you learn and progress you'll know when and if a lathe is necessary.

    I would, however, suggest the purchase of a cheap Chinese benchtop drill press of the type typically priced at less than US$100. This will serve nicely to accurately ream out bushing holes and, if you're good at it, also serve as an inconvenient but available lathe. Mine came from Harbor Freight Tools, which typically prices them high but has periodic sales on the things.

    Mark Kinsler
     
  16. David S

    David S Registered User
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    If you are concerned with the integrity of that shroud you could make a "cap" and press it on like some of the Asian movements do. Punch our a brass washer from thin sheet brass with an internal hole slightly smaller than the arbour diameter and press it on. This is totally reversible and doesn't rely on solder, loctite or anything else that some consider taboo.
    trundle retainer cap from stamped brass.jpg and shown pressed on. sheet metal cap pressed on.jpg

    David
     
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  17. woodlawndon

    woodlawndon Registered User
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    What do you use as a punch David?
    Don
     
  18. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    I have used flat brass washers, intended to go over the minute hand, for this purpose. Just pick the right size from the assortment and broach the hole to a friction fit for the arbor.

    Uhralt
     
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  19. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I bought one of these from Walmart.com. Prices for what seems to be essentially the same tool vary widely, so do some shopping.

    https://www.walmart.com/ip/XtremepowerUS-Hand-Held-Power-Punch-Sheet-Metal-Hole-Punch-Kit/234521692?athcpid=234521692&athpgid=athenaItemPage&athcgid=null&athznid=PWVAV&athieid=v0&athstid=CS020&athguid=26c5506c-d1d-16eb8157bf0af5&athancid=null&athena=true

    It's not so easy to make a truly concentric washer with one of these, but it's one of those tools that's (dare I say it) a great deal of fun to have. I've made emergency washers by punching small holes in pennies.

    M Kinsler
    numismatic bandit
     
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  20. David S

    David S Registered User
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    Don I use the same punch that Mark shows in the post after mine. If you punch the big part out first it leaves a small dimple that can serve as the centre for a smaller punch to punch the hole. It can then be adjusted with a drill bit or tapered reamer.

    David
     
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  21. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    Now that is a good idea. I think I'll try making a cap that should alleviate my fears. ( to be honest the only idea I had come up with was the loctite.) I'll give the punch a try.

    I have some arbor bushing assortments from timesavers but from what I read here it's going to be hit or miss with these.I also have an industrial Jewelers drill I picked up at an auction that will serve nicely with a foot control. I guess I've had it easy because I have so many clocks it's easy to sideline one and move to the next because the majority of my clocks simply lack a good cleaning and oiling. Thanks for all of you and I'll let you know how it goes.
     
  22. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    What is an 'industrial jeweler's drill?" I've never heard that term.

    M Kinsler
     
  23. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    I'm thinking off the top of my head it is a cameron 164 micro drill press complete with pedal control.
     
  24. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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  25. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I have a fancy shim punch but for a long time I punched out brass washers using a flat face punch and a soft lead block. Willie X
     
  26. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I gotta try that sometime. It sounds neat.
     
  27. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Of course if you had a real lathe you could just bore a brass rod to the required opening and slice off all the washers or collets you desire.

    RC
     
  28. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    That assumes that I'd have more luck with a cutoff tool on brass than I normally have. Thinnish washers are easier to cut out of sheet stock.

    I just read Bangster's excellent tutorial on lantern-pinion repair, and it is splendid in both writing and photography.

    I think I'll save the sad story of the Waterbury crystal regulator for another post. It taught me more than I'd hoped it would.

    M Kinsler
     
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  29. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I use the cutoff tool on the Sherline lathe for brass all the time, can cut washers as thick or thin as you like. I don't understand why you have no luck using a cutoff tool. You do need a real lathe with a cross feed screw to control the rate of cutting, it ain't gonna work on that "bogus lathe" contraption. You get best results with a cutoff blade made for that purpose that has the correct profile, and of course it must be setup correctly and feed into the work at the correct rate and the stock rotated at the proper speed. There should be no problem cutting off brass or steel.

    RC
     
  30. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

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    I am a bit concerned with the not so expert advice given for this situation. Many of the solutions given seem to be second rate.
    First, the wires did not get bent on their own. Something applied more force than they were able to stand. If that happened during the normal operation of the clock, it probably will happen again. It is best to try to find the source of the problem.
    A complete failure of that that lantern pinion (because of a poor quality repair) could cause great harm to the rest of the movement. Are you ready to solve those problems?
    It would be pretty easy to:
    1. Replace that lantern pinion with a good one from a donor movement.
    2. Send the piece to someone qualified to build a new one or who possibly has a suitable replacement in stock. (ever heard of David LaBounty?)
    Spending a bit of extra effort or money on this movement may save lots of headaches in the long run, especially if it is a customer’s movement.
    JMHO
    Dick
     
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  31. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    In this case you have to make sure that
    - the pitch diameter of the pinion is the same
    - the thickness of the trundles is the same
    - the number of the trundles is the same
    as the original.

    I don't think the circumferential crack line in the shroud will create a real problem. I don't see how any stress in the movement could cause this, or make it worse. I would just go ahead and exchange the trundles.

    Uhralt
     
  32. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    On DF's point, 2nd wheels/arbors/ pinions are nearly always a victim of some force from below. And you might not be so lucky the next time ...
    WIllie X
     
  33. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    Ok great points. I agree something caused this to happen. I can find no bad teeth, bent arbors/pivots and all seems to move smoothly after straightening the one bent trundle. I'm thinking possible cranking hard or maybe debris causing this. Also evidence of a repair on this pinion maybe a factor. Also the rear pivot on this wheel looks as if it's been snipped off a bit maybe a re-pivot. The main wheels do need bushing but you guys have more experience than I so I will defer. Not customers so I have time to study and digest a bit. If it were I would definitely send it out with my current level of experience.
     
  34. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

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    Is that like "overwinding the movement?"
    Think about the physics involved.
    Once the spring is fully wound, the winding arbor will not turn any more.
    Cranking hard on a key will not transmit any extra power to that wheel.
    But----a failed click and/or click return spring can shock the entire system and cause the damage you describe.
    Have you checked the integrity of those?
    Dick
     
  35. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    No but I will thank you.
     
  36. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Accidentally turning the winding key forcefully backward will apply excessive force in addition to that already applied by the spring(s). The OP said this is a large gallery clock. I wonder if it may have been originally had more than the usual amount of power.

    RC
     
  37. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    The damaged shroud and bent trundle might have been the result of a heavy-handed repairer. The shroud cap in question looks like it's a little closer to the wheel as I see faint traces of knurling and a little "cleaner" steel above it. Also the trundle holes in the shroud look like they may have been worked on with a single hard strike. For a circa 1860 movement, those 2nd wheel trundles are not showing much wear. This is all speculation but it looks like the wheel has been worked on/over a bit. Perhaps not. I don't have any experience with a movement that old. Maybe that's how they were made/machined at that time.

    I agree that you should look very critically at the Great Wheel, but if you can find nothing wrong with aspects already mentioned, consider that the current condition of the second wheel may be due to previous attempts at repair. Of course, that begs the question of why was repair necessary in the first place. As you've noted, the pivot on that end of the wheel looks a little rough too. As if it has been cut off. Is there a joint between the pivot and arbor? How do the other pivot ends look?

    Check the click, rivet, click spring along with every tooth, arbor, pivot and pinion in the train. Have any bushings been placed? Does the plate need bushings? Correct/clean up any issues you may find. They may have been missed. A clock this old has been around the shop a few times.

    Good luck,

    Bruce
     
  38. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    Thanks Bruce. I reassembled the works and inspected again and I believe the front shroud (without the crack) rides too close to the main wheel. Yes I believe it's a bad repair. When I apply pressure to the train the slop in the main wheel pivots cause bad depthing issues between the two wheels. Checked the clicks and actually the time side needs attention more than the strike though both need attention. Other than the main wheels I do not see any bushings installed or punch marks and those bushings maybe original. The most obvious repair is the (for lack of a better words) carburetor screw soldered on the front. I don't know but maybe this thing had brass mainsprings originally. I referred to this earlier as a gallery clock but I think they are called Anglo clocks.

    20191201_083734.jpg 20191201_083721.jpg 20191201_083729.jpg 20191201_083746.jpg
     
  39. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Yes, I think you are right. this wheel has been worked on. The pivot seems to be a replacement. Maybe it was bent by an accident and broke off when attempting to straighten it. The lantern pinion is also too close to the main wheel. It could be moved on its arbor a few mm closer to the strike wheel.

    Uhralt
     
  40. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    Thank you for your help.
     
  41. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    The first picture in post # 1 looks like the original stake marks so that doesn't looked messed with. Looks like a lot of endshake and in the picture the shroud appears against rhe main wheel, but shifted toward the other frame there will be adequate clearance. That pivot looks like it has been snipped off, possibly to allow that wheel to be slipped out of mesh to time the pin wheel. Not sure if the last pictures are before or after attempting to straighten the bent trundles, but in the picture they still look somewhat bent.

    If it runs OK, I would just leave it alone unless you decide to rebuild that pinion. If you want to move the pinion away from the main wheel, one way to move it intact is to cut and grind a strip of sheet steel exactly as wide as the space between the lantern ends. Wrap the strip around the trundles. The use a hollow punch or tube to drive the complete lantern away from the main wheel...........but with that cracked shroud there could be a surprise.

    RC
     
  42. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    You are correct about the end shake. Also i think I'll wait till the holes are bushed to see how that effects the clearance between the wheel and the shroud. Yes the trundles do look a little bent still but not s bad. Thanks for your help.
     
  43. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    You can leave the bushing proud on the inside (at the front) to minimise the wheel/pinion misaglinement. Your clock shows little wear for its age. These 'big wheel' clocks were made to run. Even with lots of wear they can keep running just fine. WIllie X
     
  44. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Once again, I have no experience working on clocks this old but it does appear to me that the wheel in question either left the factory in less than ideal conditions/form, or perhaps it has been worked on since.

    I say this because the length of trundles appears to be unequal in your first photo in post #1. Some of them are clearly visible through the end of the cap, while some look like they end well short of the peening (or whatever was done to retain them in the pinion assembly). This assumes that all of the trundles are fully seated in the "bottom" Cap.

    Photo 4 in post #1 clearly shows wear in the lift pins around the gear while the trundles show very little signs of wear. They have been collecting rust and dust perhaps, but no wear is visible (unless I've missed it).

    Finally, photo 4 in post # 38 shows the "inner" shroud cap is positioned right next to the gear teeth of the Great Wheel within the Plates. In my experience pinions tend to be centered on their driving gear. Spacing of the gear/pinion is such that force is applied to the trundles right next to the Cap. The bent trundle(s) are really a moot point since the Great Wheel doesn't mesh with or drive those areas.

    If end-shake is still possible with this configuration, and it looks like it should be, I tend to agree with RC. Leave the Lantern Pinion as is. You can carefully straighten the bent Trundle(s) if you want to but it probably will have no effect on the operation of the Gear Train unless you have an accident while trying to straighten them. The force is transferred near the end of the Trundles and the spacing there will be uniform even on the bent trundles. I could be wrong but I suspect the Trundles will actually resist forces in this area better than they would in the middle of their spans because the Great Wheel Teeth will have less leverage here. Kind of like trying to bend some rebar right at the point it emerges from concrete vs. applying the same amount of force several feet away from that point.

    Good luck with it Steamer.

    Bruce
     
  45. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
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    This possibly indicates that a previous repairer may have deliberately moved the lantern close to the driving wheel in an attempt to avoid replacing the bent trundles, or perhaps the original manufacturer, knowing the the original trundles were just soft steel, intentionally aligned the lantern close to the driving wheel to reduce the bending stress..This is the 2nd wheel pinion which is the most heavily loaded pinion in the movement. In my opinion, a proper repair includes replacing all of the trundles with stronger tempered pivot wire and centering the lantern to the great wheel. Otherwise leave it alone. Its like driving a car on smooth tires - you can drive until there is an accident or the tire blows out and you have to replace it, or do so preemptively.

    RC
     
    Kevin W. likes this.
  46. steamer471

    steamer471 Registered User
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    Nov 2, 2013
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    Thanks guys your observations are most helpful. I will let you know how it comes out. I am ordering some bushings from time savers for the winding arbors and once I install them I'll take it from there.
     

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