Correct Weights for Weight Driven Clock

Douglas Ballard

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This movement/dial is on the way. It does not have the weights. Can someone advise the correct weights, if that information can be determined from the photo? Would 4.5 inches by 1 3/4 inch diameter, weight 4lbs. 3oz. work? The diameter of the dial is 6.5 inches.

Thanks in advance
 

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Bruce Alexander

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This movement/dial is on the way. It does not have the weights. Can someone advise the correct weights, if that information can be determined from the photo? Would 4.5 inches by 1 3/4 inch diameter, weight 4lbs. 3oz. work? The diameter of the dial is 6.5 inches.

Thanks in advance
If no one has definite information you may have to determine that by hooking up a container and adding weight in one form or another until the clock runs consistently...that's something that is best done, or repeated, after an overhaul.
 

Douglas Ballard

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Jurgen, don't know what it is. Just bought from Proclocks. Probably is newer and a "no name" movement. Here is a photo of the back and side.

Capture.jpg
 

soaringjoy

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Umphh. OK. 1970s or sumpin'.
Might need a couple of ounces more than an old Vienna movement.
If you need further help, post pics of the front (rack) and the leader. Then I can try to look it up for you.
 

Douglas Ballard

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Thanks, Jurgen. Once I receive it I will pull the face and get photos posted. Appreciate it!

Umphh. OK. 1970s or sumpin'.
Might need a couple of ounces more than an old Vienna movement.
If you need further help, post pics of the front (rack) and the leader. Then I can try to look it up for you.
 

Scottie-TX

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Boy, I sure wish you hadn'ta done that DOUG. I DO hope you're genuinely pleased with it tho. It was probably made in Asia last year. Now if it were a Vienna movement, three pounds would be the proper weight. But it's not a Vienna and even have my doubts as to whether it is even a deadbeat after looking at the pictures on the original listing. If it's recoil it may take as much as seven or more pounds so guess you will hafta wait and see by experimenting as others suggest.
 

Willie X

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Well, the diameter is easy, anything will do as long as the weights end up at least 1/8 inch apart, 1 3/4" is to large for some Viennas.
3 pounds would be a good starting point.

Willie X
 

tok-tokkie

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A simple way to find the minimum weight is to hang a fish scale between the pulley & any weight great enough to make the clock run. Place a chair or something below the weight & let it settle on the chair as the clock runs. Scale will then show the minimum weight. I have seen it suggested that you should then use 20% more than that - seems a bit high to me.
 

Scottie-TX

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I still prefer the overswing method - supplemental arc. Hang a weight that will run the clock reliably. Observe the overswing. Use a weight that provides the amount of overseing that you prefer. The more the overswing, the less finicky your clock will be. At that point it's preference - whether you prefer a large pendulum swing or minimal. I prefer minimal swing. I'm in the minority.
 

Douglas Ballard

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Scottie, you might be right. I've wanted one of these and once the price goes above $400 on a "genuine" wall clock I have to drop out. I'm "hoping" this is fairly well made, we shall see when it arrives. I knew from the listing this was a "new" movement, but it was within my price range. Once I get it put together and see how it runs I may keep it or sell it. Need to hunt down some weights (thanks to those who posted about that), a pendulum and a case.

Just to clarify on the weight. When you state the weight, you are speaking of "per weight-time side/strike side" I take it?

Boy, I sure wish you hadn'ta done that DOUG. I DO hope you're genuinely pleased with it tho. It was probably made in Asia last year. Now if it were a Vienna movement, three pounds would be the proper weight. But it's not a Vienna and even have my doubts as to whether it is even a deadbeat after looking at the pictures on the original listing. If it's recoil it may take as much as seven or more pounds so guess you will hafta wait and see by experimenting as others suggest.
 

harold bain

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A simple way to find the minimum weight is to hang a fish scale between the pulley & any weight great enough to make the clock run. Place a chair or something below the weight & let it settle on the chair as the clock runs. Scale will then show the minimum weight. I have seen it suggested that you should then use 20% more than that - seems a bit high to me.
I think the 20% over is recommended because if you have just serviced the movement, it's now running in the best condition possible for it. The 20 % insures it won't need to be cleaned again in 6 months to a year as it's pristine condition slides downhill from use and oil evaporation. Most makers would have overpowered them from the factory to ensure less clocks come back under warranty.
 

Willie X

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I think that the + 20 % over minimum is a very good rule of thumb. I'm in the 'over-swing should be easy to observe' camp.

Willie X
 

Douglas Ballard

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Now that I've learned about "over swing" is there a way to do this on a spring driven wall clock? I've got a couple that I would like to see with more "swing." They run just fine and are very accurate so maybe I'm asking for too much? :whistle:
 

Scottie-TX

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It is not possible to ask too much here. We LOVE questions. Overswing is applicable to nearly every type of clock and most every type of escapement. Weight per side: Yes . At least two problems I perceive going forward. The thickness of the movement including the dial is MUCH thicker than Vienna movements so unless you make a case, most cases won't be deep enough to accept this movement. Second, Pendulum length: 23" is shorter than most and longer than most. 21" is somewhat common. 25" is also common. So a case this movement could fit lengthwise will have the pendulum swinging about two inches above floor. Third, type of pendulum and how to attach: I've studied the pix and nearly as I can tell there is no provision for beat adjustment except bending crutch. It appears a common steel rod hangs from suspension and passes thru a fork in crutch. Seems to have a hook. Not sure how one would attach a typical Vienna pendulum. Perhaps could be done with a steel rod extending from a common wood stick pendulum
 

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Douglas Ballard

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Scottie,
These are all important observations. I have been looking at cases for fitting this movement, but have the same concerns as you expressed here. My best bet at this point is to wait and get the movement, get it weighted correctly with the correct pendulum and then build a case. I have carpentry skills so this is something I can do. I guess in some respects it would make the clock "special" to me and wouldn't "profane" a vintage or antique clock case. :excited:

I bought this from Bob at ProClocks and he has been helpful as far as getting it setup with the correct weights and pendulum. He is out of the country until the first part of January so may have to wait on some things. I'm hoping since he sold the clock he will have some insight into fitting it up. Seems to be he advised it would be about 23" from the center of the minute arbor to the bottom of the case. I have several "real" German wall clocks of various pendulum lengths so I have something to gauge the correct length by.

As far as actually hanging the pendulum I will have to cross that bridge once I get the movement. This brings up another question, what are the effects of the pendulum being too long or too short? I know this has been discussed in a couple of threads but can't seem to locate them at the moment.

It is not possible to ask too much here. We LOVE questions. Overswing is applicable to nearly every type of clock and most every type of escapement. Weight per side: Yes . At least two problems I perceive going forward. The thickness of the movement including the dial is MUCH thicker than Vienna movements so unless you make a case, most cases won't be deep enough to accept this movement. Second, Pendulum length: 23" is shorter than most and longer than most. 21" is somewhat common. 25" is also common. So a case this movement could fit lengthwise will have the pendulum swinging about two inches above floor. Third, type of pendulum and how to attach: I've studied the pix and nearly as I can tell there is no provision for beat adjustment except bending crutch. It appears a common steel rod hangs from suspension and passes thru a fork in crutch. Seems to have a hook. Not sure how one would attach a typical Vienna pendulum. Perhaps could be done with a steel rod extending from a common wood stick pendulum
 

Scottie-TX

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Well fortunately that's very simple. Pendulum too long and clock will run slow, vice versa. Good gnus that you have case building skills. I have considered making a keyhole vienna case. Most likely that would require kerfing and wood bending skills.
More good gnus: Since his measurement is from the centershaft, your pendulum will be about 25" mebbe a tad longer and that is a VERY common PL for Viennas.
 

Douglas Ballard

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This is good news. I will post better photos when I get this Asian contraption delivered.

Well fortunately that's very simple. Pendulum too long and clock will run slow, vice versa. Good gnus that you have case building skills. I have considered making a keyhole vienna case. Most likely that would require kerfing and wood bending skills.
More good gnus: Since his measurement is from the centershaft, your pendulum will be about 25" mebbe a tad longer and that is a VERY common PL for Viennas.
 

Don DeMarcus

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Douglas
I posted this some time ago and this is how I determine what the weight should be.
Basically after it touches bottom the scale will tell you the weight you need.

You do not have to have to weight all the way to the top only enough room to fit a weight and the scale in.

Good luck.
don
If you have enought room try this I posted it some time ago.
icon1.gif Re: How much weight is too much?
I have used this method on a Viena Regulator and it seems to work just fin.
Try it your self and it might have your problem solved.

Here is the picture I took showing how to determine the weight for a movement.
Place a scale between the weight and hook, got mine at K-mart fishing dept.
The scale will first read the weight on the scale of the weight, then when it reaches the bottom, and you do not have to take it all the way up to the top only provide enough room to hang the weight and scale.

Once it reaches the bottom it will read the weight needed to operate the clock.

Don

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/47/12...e40d393753.jpg


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Save all clocks for the next generation. paperclip.png Attached Thumbnails 83187.jpg
 
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Douglas Ballard

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Don, thanks for the information and the photos on weight determination. I don't have a scale but will pick one up this week.
Scottie, nice cat . . . I have a large black cat that likes to walk on our counter and knock everything off if he doesn't get fed in time.

The movement arrived today. The plates are nice and thick, the same as a "real" german wall clock. The strike system is a rack and snail. The dial is about 7.25" across and as luck would have it I have a FMS wall clock that has a dial the same diameter and a pendulum about as long as the one suggested for my "new" clock. The dial is porcelain and quite heavy. It is pinned to the movement. Once I get the weights and pendulum will be trying this out to see how it keeps time. I will post photos for critique later this week, but since it is Christmas Eve I though I better not spend too much time out in the shop fooling around with the clock.
 

Scottie-TX

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Yepper! Dial size is perfect - perfect because that is the most common size found on Viennas so congrats on arrival and hopefully our concerns will be erased quickly one by one as you proceed.
 

Douglas Ballard

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Tis the day after Christmas and I had some time to take photos of the movement. The plates are 1.7 mm thick, same as some of my German wall clocks. I have a 24" wood stick pendulum on the way from TimeSavers as that is the closet I could get to the recommended length. Here are photos of the movement without the dial. Honest thoughts on this movement please (even if it makes me look like a dope for buying it). Thanks!

DSC05587.JPG DSC05588.JPG DSC05589.JPG DSC05590.JPG
 

Scottie-TX

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It really wouldn't be fair to write anything derogatory about this movement with what little we know and have seen and I'm not trying to find any. We'll know much more as you put it in motion and assess it's performance and your satisfaction. I wish you well with it matey!
 

tok-tokkie

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The form of the gear teeth seems a bit poor. They appear to be metal stampings. May just be because the distant gears are somewhat out of focus. The strike mechanism teeth do seem to be poor.
One of the teeth on the motion work at the front seems to be half height.
Lantern rings rather than leaf pinions - I comment on them - not judging them.
As Scottie says - the performance is what counts.
 

Douglas Ballard

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I have to show my ignorance, I have yet to understand the difference between deadbeat and recoil. So, if you would enlighten me on that I can give you an answer! :)

Please do tell tho; My curiosity is peaked. Is it deadbeat or recoil?
 

soaringjoy

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The movement sure stumps me!
Lantern pinions and strip pallets, along with those skimpy wheels and levers on the front isn't
really what one expects. The fly is very unusual.
Can you show the mounting bracket, please?

The deadbeat escapement is considered to be the finer type and it is much more precise than
a recoil escapement. Don't ask me to explain it - others are much better - but this site has animated
diagrams that are very good.
Click on Schw. Hakenhemmung (recoil) and Graham-Hemmung (deadbeat); click the diagrams on each
and they start to move:

http://uhrentechnik.vyskocil.de/125.0.html
 

Douglas Ballard

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Jurgen, thanks to these animations I understand. "Recoil" as the name implies has some rock back in the opposite direction of motion, while dead beat does not. All the "Vienna" wall clocks I have, the antique ones, use a dead beat escapement Now that I know what I"m looking for I will check my "new" one when I get home from work and repost. Will also take photos of the mounting bracket and post those.

Can one tell simply from the shape of the pallet if a movement is dead beat or recoil?

The movement sure stumps me!
Lantern pinions and strip pallets, along with those skimpy wheels and levers on the front isn't
really what one expects. The fly is very unusual.
Can you show the mounting bracket, please?

The deadbeat escapement is considered to be the finer type and it is much more precise than
a recoil escapement. Don't ask me to explain it - others are much better - but this site has animated
diagrams that are very good.
Click on Schw. Hakenhemmung (recoil) and Graham-Hemmung (deadbeat); click the diagrams on each
and they start to move:

http://uhrentechnik.vyskocil.de/125.0.html
 

soaringjoy

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Generally, yes. The metal strip pallet escapements are a "cheap" version, inexpensive
to make and are most certainly recoils. There were some being made, that weren't bad
at all, so these are but rule of thumb infos.
Most Vienna movements and spring driven movements of high quality have Graham deadbeats,
or variants of these.
EW teeth on deadbeat and recoil face in the opposite directions.
 

Scottie-TX

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"Opposite directions": In other words the teeth on the escape wheel have a certain angle. On deadbeats the teeth point in direction of rotation. Recoils' teeth point opposite direction of rotation and, "yes." the pallet shape is also a quick reference. If it's recoil, one pallet will be bent apx. ninety degrees and flat. The other pallet will be curved. For a deadbeat, both pallets will be curved.
 

Douglas Ballard

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Got the weights and the pendulum. Clock is running but still making adjustments to the pendulum length (wood) to get it regulated. I can't use the pendulum hanger that came with the pendulum so will be working on fabricating one. Never done this before so it will be an adventure. This movement has a dead beat escapement.

Jurgen, I have not forgotten about posting a photo of the mounting bracket. Will try to do that this evening.
 

Scottie-TX

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So, deadbeat; That's GREAT. Now the weights; how much is it taking? If the crutch is how I imagine - a brass wire with a loop at bottom similar to American species you might wanna look over the Lenzkirch topic and fashion yours similar with a steel rod threaded into wooden stick and a claw type hanger atop.
 

Douglas Ballard

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I will have to weigh the weights, forgot how much they weigh, I think about 7lbs each. I have attached a drawing (sorry, I'm no artist).

The pendulum leader is not what you would expect, just a tab bent at a right angle from the leader. I made a hanger for the pendulum from a piece of brass, bent it so it is centered over the pendulum rod (wooden rod). I have been cutting 1/2 inch off the rod in increments until I get the clock to run fast (rating nut is all the way to the top so I have some wiggle room once I get it running a little fast).

I am getting a slight arch to the left with the pendulum (facing the clock). I'm sure this is probably a bent leader issue and am working on that. I will try to get some photos posted this evening. The pendulum came with a claw type hanger that won't work. The leader is a piece of flat pressed metal, bending at a right angle where the pendulum rod attaches.

001.jpg

So, deadbeat; That's GREAT. Now the weights; how much is it taking? If the crutch is how I imagine - a brass wire with a loop at bottom similar to American species you might wanna look over the Lenzkirch topic and fashion yours similar with a steel rod threaded into wooden stick and a claw type hanger atop.
 

Douglas Ballard

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Here are some photos of the pendulum hanger I fabricated. It seems to be working, straightened the pendulum leader and now less wobble although not cleared up completely. I have cut off 2.5" from the pendulum and it seems to be dead on although the bob is all the way to the top of the adjustment so will probably cut off another .25" after letting it run all night to check it.

Jurgen: finally got a photo of the mount (if you are still watching this thread).
 

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Douglas Ballard

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The weights are 4 lbs 5.1 oz each. The whole movement is nothing exceptional, but if I can get it to work I'll be happy until something better (I can afford) comes along!

DSC05615.JPG
 

kdf

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Very strange movement. I can recognise some parts, they seems to be from chinese Polaris (or 555) clocks, which are with springs. Plates are not, they are different. As far as I know, Polaris did not made weight driven movements, so it is strange... These movements have recoil escapement and instead of "fly" there is centrifugal speed regulator (centrifugal brake), like in your movement. They also have lantern pinions. Polaris movements are good, durable and reasonably precise.
 

Scottie-TX

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Congrats DB! Looks like you've got it rather well sorted. I too hope there is a genuinely old Vienna movement in your near future. This one will then help you appreciate much more the value of a genuinely old one.
 

Douglas Ballard

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KDF, thank you for the information, very helpful.

Very strange movement. I can recognise some parts, they seems to be from chinese Polaris (or 555) clocks, which are with springs. Plates are not, they are different. As far as I know, Polaris did not made weight driven movements, so it is strange... These movements have recoil escapement and instead of "fly" there is centrifugal speed regulator (centrifugal brake), like in your movement. They also have lantern pinions. Polaris movements are good, durable and reasonably precise.
 

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