19th c American Connecticut Mirror Clocks?

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Thought I would post a relatively recent acquisition. Also, thought some like minded folks might welcome a bit of a change of pace.

When one thinks of "mirror clocks", I think most will think NH. I believe that most mirror clocks encountered are from that state. Here are a couple of examples I have previously posted by Benjamin Morrill:



Both of these have Morrill's "wheel barrel" movement which refers to the shape of the plates. See the previous postings for more pictures. I have also posted a wonderful miniature reproduction by the late Michael Paul. It has a miniature weight driven wheel barrel movement! Also see Parsons, "New Hampshire Clocks and Clock Makers" for more about NH mirror clocks by this maker and others. It's an older reference but I believe it stands the test of time.

Mirror clocks were made in ME, too. Here's one I've previously posted:



What a funky case. Alternating mahogany and bird's eye maple veneer on the front, solid bird's eye maple sides. I have never seen another case like this. It is time and strike. I attribute the clock to either Wingate or Emerson based upon the movement. See the previous posting and Katra, "Clockmakers and Clockmaking in Maine; 1770-1790".

I will also add that mirror clocks were also made in VT. Here is an example by Hale:



I have a wonderful miniature reproduction of this clock also made by Michael Paul that not only has a miniature weight driven reproduction movement, but a miniature weight driven alarm movement!

...and one by Dewey


But mirror clocks were also made in CT, too. Unlike the above illustrated clocks, they departed from the traditions of relatively small scale clock making, instead embracing methods of mass production.

One I have also previously posted is a clock with the dial bearing the signature of George Hills as well as his label.



It contains a cast iron backplate "marine" movement by Kirk. Though there is only one winding arbor, it is in fact time & strike. See my Kirk thread for more about this clock and the movement.

And FINALLY, coming to the point. Joseph Ives also made mirror clocks in Bristol, CT. Here is an example of probably the most commonly encountered model:



It survives in pretty good condition with good scrolls, returns and the original oversized brass finials. The case was refinished at one point. I like the use of bird's eye maple on the corbels. Bird's eye and tiger were used to various extents in these cases. There are some examples of all tiger maple cases.

The upper glass is a passable copy done on old glass:



The lower is original with some losses:



The painted interior is absolutely correct:



The interior of these clocks were given a # of different paint treatments and were even smoke grained.

A previous owner placed a note with the provenance of the clock.

Note the movement with steel/iron? plates, brass gears and shape of the gear teeth:



The heavy iron dial is original and untouched as are the hollow spade hands:



They are rather massive and gosh are they heavy. Ives mirror clocks, though wonderful, did not really make much sense in terms of where the CT clock industry was beginning to move at that time.

There are some excellent references out there to read more about the clocks of Joseph Ives including the other types of mirror clocks he made. See Dubois, "The Work of Joseph Ives and Friends", Dapkus, "Joseph Ives and the Looking Glass Clock" (this book has a wonderful appendix by Peter Gosnell with a well illustrated in depth discussion of the movements used by Ives in his mirror clocks) and of course, Roberts, "The Contributions of Joseph Ives, etc."

A quick superfluous item. Previously, I have posted and discussed "woolies", pictures sewn from yarn. Examples posted include ships, the most common motif and a locomotive on the GER (rather scarce). This time, a floral!



My picture does not show how 3 dimensional it is. Also like the use of squares to give the impression of depth.

RM

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

The first picture of the Ives mirror clock is kinda small. There were some technical issues with it.

I am reposting it here so it is expandable.



RM

 

[RAK]

The woods they used on that Ives mirror clock are amazing!

As always, an informative and fun post to read on a topic I know virtually nothing about. On occasion when reading one of your posts I've had the passing thought "This is really great material: I bet the general public would find it interesting too. What we need to do is get RM to host a PBS series on clocks and other forgotten art forms". Anyway, back to reality....

Bob

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

The woods they used on that Ives mirror clock are amazing!

As always, an informative and fun post to read on a topic I know virtually nothing about. On occasion when reading one of your posts I've had the passing thought "This is really great material: I bet the general public would find it interesting too. What we need to do is get RM to host a PBS series on clocks and other forgotten art forms". Anyway, back to reality....

Bob

Thanks so much for your very kind words.

RM

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

The dull appliance bulb flickered on over my head with the realization of a major glaring deficiency in this thread.

See this wonderful thread by Jim Dubois:

Boardman Mirror Clock, earlier groaner movement | NAWCC Forums

A good discussion of the very rare wooden works mirror clocks, also made in CT.

Take a look.

RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

Regarding the Ives mirror clocks, MJ Dapkus has done a lot of documentation around these clocks. I found it most interesting that there were about 20 years of suits and countersuits around the partnerships that built these to a completed state. MJD reports there may have been about 4 providers of the cases that were used in their production. The movements themselves suggest the hands of more than just Ives in their construction.

It is interesting to note that Ives, or his partners seemingly never put his name on the dial or included a paper label in their cases. One example of a signed dial has been found to be a repaint, and two with "labels" were found to be recent additions and nonperiod. We had several examples of these shown in the 2017 Ives display at the Arlington TX national. That was thought to be the largest Ives-related display ever, consisting of more than 78 examples. Some were exceeding rare, others more common examples...here are a couple of examples of the large mirror clocks. One is a short pendulum version the other is a long pendulum. The only difference in the two movements is the number of teeth on the escape wheel. The long version has 30 teeth and the short version has 60 teeth. Why build these two versions with neither offering any better performance remains a mystery. And the painted interiors have been found in all of them to date. Sometimes patterned, other times (one) signed in paint by the painter, for example in the collection of Ed LaFond family. And to that point, I was recently offered one of these that someone had worked long and hard to strip out all that paint on the interior. I guess I should have bought it for the movement, but......I hate stripped cases, and I digress....

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Regarding the Ives mirror clocks, MJ Dapkus has done a lot of documentation around these clocks. I found it most interesting that there were about 20 years of suits and countersuits around the partnerships that built these to a completed state. MJD reports there may have been about 4 providers of the cases that were used in their production. The movements themselves suggest the hands of more than just Ives in their construction.

It is interesting to note that Ives, or his partners seemingly never put his name on the dial or included a paper label in their cases. One example of a signed dial has been found to be a repaint, and two with "labels" were found to be recent additions and nonperiod. We had several examples of these shown in the 2017 Ives display at the Arlington TX national. That was thought to be the largest Ives-related display ever, consisting of View attachment 705381 View attachment 705382 more than 78 examples. Some were exceeding rare, others more common examples...here are a couple of examples of the large mirror clocks. One is a short pendulum version the other is a long pendulum. The only difference in the two movements is the number of teeth on the escape wheel. The long version has 30 teeth and the short version has 60 teeth. Why build these two versions with neither offering any better performance remains a mystery. And the painted interiors have been found in all of them to date. Sometimes patterned, other times (one) signed in paint by the painter, for example in the collection of Ed LaFond family. And to that point, I was recently offered one of these that someone had worked long and hard to strip out all that paint on the interior. I guess I should have bought it for the movement, but......I hate stripped cases, and I digress....

Thanks so much!

Excellent information.

RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

RM, since both you and I tend to do a bit of thread drift, information on cases that are not from original makers, here is one I just came across and sold last week end. And, I had owned it for 3 years and never noticed the backboard. It is on the double ogee by Forestville as seen 2nd from the right here. The last two words appear to be "Bloody Run" which might be Civil war related. But, the general references seem to point that battle to the French and Indian war period.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

RM, since both you and I tend to do a bit of thread drift, information on cases that are not from original makers, here is one I just came across and sold last week end. And, I had owned it for 3 View attachment 705383 View attachment 705384 years and never noticed the backboard. It is on the double ogee by Forestville as seen 2nd from the right here. The last two words appear to be "Bloody Run" which might be Civil war related. But, the general references seem to point that battle to the French and Indian war period.

Love stuff like that!

I suspect it is the name of a past owner and the town took the name of a battle that occurred there? Not sure a name like that would be good for real estate values? "Why yes, we're the next town after Head Wound."

By the way, in your earlier post, you mention an Ives mirror clock with a signed dial that was a repaint.

I have seen a few of the wagon spring short drop ripple molded wall clocks with dials signed "Joseph Ives/New York" or to that effect often with a decorative flourish underneath. Some may be real, but I think the "dating" is wrong. Furthermore, I have had the opportunity to examine a # of them I have concluded that those dials were also repaints. It is my understanding that the dials of those clocks tend to flake, so repaints of them are not uncommon.

RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

From my investigations, the ripple fronts were all by Whiting, not Ives even though it was in partnership with Ives. All of the "signed" examples are repaints that I have seen to date. Here is an example of an original dial, and you are correct, they shed paint easily generating repaints. For all practical purposes, the only original Ives clocks with signed dials are the so-called Brooklyn model wagon springs. Only one of his glass-dialed tall clocks shows any possibility of a signature. The Olmstead and Barnes wagon spring is a repainted dial. A copy of the Brooklyn model signatures to be more precise. And here is an example of one of the repainted Atkins and Whiting ripple fronts with the incorrect signature and location. They were not in NY for example....part of the incorrect work. Nicely done but incorrect.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Neglected to mention MA mirror clocks!!

Samuel Abbot was a maker of such clocks. They contained his famous "grand piano" shaped movement. They also used unique weight which ran down guide wires on either end. For a nice example, see this SOLD example:

Samuel Abbott Mirror Clock (fatherandsonantiqueclocks.com)

This one has the gilt gesso dial surround. They also came with an eglomise surround. Another nifty feature of the case is that the sides are convex.

One of the latter recently came up at a local auction. I believe the eglomise panel was an older but nicely done repaint and the dial may have been relined (well done). Had a great label. The weight in these clocks run down the back and tend to abrade the label. This label was quite nice. Pretty decent clock. But, for budgetary reasons, just couldn't do it. So, still on my endless bucket list.

RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

Funny you should mention Samuel Abbott. I sold one of his time-and-strike mirror clocks last week. A nice old patina surface. The only real apology is someone replaced the bell with a gong a very long time ago. I considered putting a bell back into the clock, but the gong base had been there so long the backboard was imprinted with it, so it stayed.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Funny you should mention Samuel Abbott. I sold one of his time-and-strike mirror clocks last week. A nice old patina surface. The only real apology is someone replaced the bell with a gong a very long time ago. I considered putting a bell back into the clock, but the gong base had been there so long the backboard was imprinted with it, so it stayed.

View attachment 705472 View attachment 705473 View attachment 705474 View attachment 705478 View attachment 705479

Nice clock!

I will say it is an earlier gong, too.

RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

Nice clock!

I will say it is an earlier gong, too.

RM

Assuming I can trust my memory for dates, and I haven't looked up the precise details recently, the clock predates the introduction of gongs by 5-10+/- years. Under the gong bracket, there is a screw-hole for the bell as well as traces of a bell being mounted at one time, namely some marking in the wood by the bell casting. As you suggest the gong bracket is one of the earlier styles. The gong is mounted with blunt-tipped screws so it was my hypothesis the gong was added shortly after it came to market. A better sound in the minds of some than a bell.

The Abbott family moved from Dover to Boston, Massachusetts in about 1827. Here he is listed in the Boston Directories as a clockmaker from 1827 through 1830. In Boston, he is listed at several addresses: first at 11 Pitt Street, then 64 Hanover Street, and lastly 33 Merrimack. In 1830, Samuel left Boston and moved North to Montpelier, Vermont. He first advertises himself as a clock and watchmaker there in January 1830

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Meant to post the note that was place on the back board of the clock by a previous owner. Does illustrate the inaccuracies that are often present in what I called "granny notes".



Still some interesting info re: the provenance of the clock...which stops in the 1930's.

RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

RM, I have read a fair number of the written notes found with some clocks. Sometimes they are quite informative and less often even correct. As you are a serious student of history, historic facts, and provenance, might we assume you and I both read them with a bit of skepticism on some parts of the recorded "history"? Most often what is written usually includes earlier dates of their manufacture than both design and details preclude. Also, there is often a linkage to a famous former owner or famous maker of the clock.

I had a customer with an Adamantine cased clock that he claimed came from the family of a famous early 19th-century politician and was made in 1800. The patent date was stamped on the brass bezel of the case and it was Sept 7, 1880. When I pointed that date out he claimed it had been changed out by some other repair person.....but the clock was still John Adams's clock. The customers name was Adams, so maybe he had a vested interest in it?

But, sometime back I sort of surveyed the written provenance I have seen in clocks. More than half that I recall were wrong, sometimes a bit often much more. It seems at least 1/2 of them were quite wrong. I have previously stated 90% of them were wrong, but that might be a reach....but many are misleading at best. Always of interest though.

 

[PatH]

Perhaps the key is in the note. (bold font is mine). "...certain facts...have come down by tradition through four generations..." As Jim said, they are interesting, and often quite entertaining - in a Paul Bunyan kind of way.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

RM, I have read a fair number of the written notes found with some clocks. Sometimes they are quite informative and less often even correct. As you are a serious student of history, historic facts, and provenance, might we assume you and I both read them with a bit of skepticism on some parts of the recorded "history"? Most often what is written usually includes earlier dates of their manufacture than both design and details preclude. Also, there is often a linkage to a famous former owner or famous maker of the clock.

I had a customer with an Adamantine cased clock that he claimed came from the family of a famous early 19th-century politician and was made in 1800. The patent date was stamped on the brass bezel of the case and it was Sept 7, 1880. When I pointed that date out he claimed it had been changed out by some other repair person.....but the clock was still John Adams's clock. The customers name was Adams, so maybe he had a vested interest in it?

But, sometime back I sort of surveyed the written provenance I have seen in clocks. More than half that I recall were wrong, sometimes a bit often much more. It seems at least 1/2 of them were quite wrong. I have previously stated 90% of them were wrong, but that might be a reach....but many are misleading at best. Always of interest though.

Agreed.

Often the granny notes and more broadly, the stories accompanying an object's history/provenance have shall we say issues with credibility.

I know that I have posted the story of a dealer who insisted that a hooked rug with an Eagle clutching a star (48 stars no less) & bar shield clearly in a sort of art deco style and that was clearly relatively modern based upon materials was made by his great grandma in honor of her sons fighting in the Civil War. And a show attendee bought the story and the rug! If he said WW II I would have believed it.

Of course there is the famous alleged Civil War memorial secretary sold by Alan Katz to the Wadsworth Atheneum @ the Winter Show with extensive documentation and provenance that had a factual basis but had nothing to do with the secretary, both created by Harold Gordon.

And what about those absurd cigar advertising clocks allegedly found in a barn in PA with all sorts of provenance and history that again had nothing to do with the clocks but was correct (yes, there was a small PA cigar company by that name) offered for sale and unfortunately were even given credibility by being displayed by a NAWCC chapter and that still sell for much money?

On the other hand, I have previously posted an early Brewster and Ingraham beehive where a descendant at about the turn of the 19th into the 20th century painted on the outer back board a family provenance with dates of ownership for each ancestor that actually was credible.

The point: always be very critical in evaluating such information. The provenance/info offered may help but it must make sense in the context of the object. Res ipsa loquitur. That's when I sometimes shake my head at statements made on the Antique Road Show. Sometimes one must assess the item separately because it may be fine but the story isn't. Even if the item is NOT what the information proports, it may be fine as just a black mantel clock but not as having belonged to John Adams. Pay accordingly then. And yes, sometimes the info will call the item into question . If unsure, walk away.

RM

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Perhaps the key is in the note. (bold font is mine). "...certain facts...have come down by tradition through four generations..." As Jim said, they are interesting, and often quite entertaining - in a Paul Bunyan kind of way.

Good points.

Maybe more a Runyonesque sort of way?

RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

Agreed.

Often the granny notes and more broadly, the stories accompanying an object's history/provenance have shall we say issues with credibility.

I know that I have posted the story of a dealer who insisted that a hooked rug with an Eagle clutching a star (48 stars no less) & bar shield clearly in a sort of art deco style and that was clearly relatively modern based upon materials was made by his great grandma in honor of her sons fighting in the Civil War. And a show attendee bought the story and the rug! If he said WW II I would have believed it.

Of course there is the famous alleged Civil War memorial secretary sold by Alan Katz to the Wadsworth Atheneum @ the Winter Show with extensive documentation and provenance that had a factual basis but had nothing to do with the secretary, both created by Harold Gordon.

And what about those absurd cigar advertising clocks allegedly found in a barn in PA with all sorts of provenance and history that again had nothing to do with the clocks but was correct (yes, there was a small PA cigar company by that name) offered for sale and unfortunately were even given credibility by being displayed by a NAWCC chapter and that still sell for much money?

On the other hand, I have previously posted an early Brewster and Ingraham beehive where a descendant at about the turn of the 19th into the 20th century painted on the outer back board a family provenance with dates of ownership for each ancestor that actually was credible.

The point: always be very critical in evaluating such information. The provenance/info offered may help but it must make sense in the context of the object. Res ipsa loquitur. That's when I sometimes shake my head at statements made on the Antique Road Show. Sometimes one must assess the item separately because it may be fine but the story isn't. Even if the item is NOT what the information proports, it may be fine as just a black mantel clock but not as having belonged to John Adams. Pay accordingly then. And yes, sometimes the info will call the item into question . If unsure, walk away.

RM

Singer Ray Stevens is given credit for writing the phrase "There is none so blind as he who will not see," in a line from the song "Everything Is Beautiful." which was released in 1970.

Or if you prefer more nuanced and credible sources:

"There are none so blind as those who will not see" has been traced back to John Heywood in 1546. It resembles the Biblical verse of Jeremiah 5:21 which is as follows, 'Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not'.

And all that tends to be applicable to all those Simon Willard clocks he never built but are often available these days?

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Singer Ray Stevens is given credit for writing the phrase "There is none so blind as he who will not see," in a line from the song "Everything Is Beautiful." which was released in 1970.

Or if you prefer more nuanced and credible sources:

"There are none so blind as those who will not see" has been traced back to John Heywood in 1546. It resembles the Biblical verse of Jeremiah 5:21 which is as follows, 'Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not'.

And all that tends to be applicable to all those Simon Willard clocks he never built but are often available these days?

Yes. The Willards are an amazingly talented bunch, having perfected postmortem clock making to such an incredible extent.

RM

 

[David 62]

The first picture of the Ives mirror clock is kinda small. There were some technical issues with it.

I am reposting it here so it is expandable.

View attachment 705098

RM

Do you run your Ives looking glass clock?

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Do you run your Ives looking glass clock?

One of many clocks I don't run.

RM

 

[Mike Mall]

But mirror clocks were also made in CT, too. Unlike the above illustrated clocks, they departed from the traditions of relatively small scale clock making, instead embracing methods of mass production.

And FINALLY, coming to the point. Joseph Ives also made mirror clocks in Bristol, CT.

Great post, very informative.

Can you enlighten me as to where Chauncey Jerome, and his Bronzed Looking-Glass Clock, fit into the timeline?

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Great post, very informative.

Can you enlighten me as to where Chauncey Jerome, and his Bronzed Looking-Glass Clock, fit into the timeline?

See this Bulletin Supplement

chris_bailey_web.pdf (nawcc.org)

He discusses the history of the bronzed looking glass clock c. 1828.

I guess I really don't see a direct connection between the Ives mirror clock and the bronzed looking glass clock, per se.

The latter cases did contain groaner movements (as well as the "thin" movement and Terry type movements) as did the ww mirror clock I linked to above. They did have mirrors.

I see the bronzed looking glass clock more as part of the march towards the production of clocks using an economic form of mass production, distribution and ultimately, the democratization of clock ownership. This involved using methods pioneered by Terry of mass producing movements in high volume with interchangeable parts made to close tolerances (essential for mass production). The cases would also become more standardized, easier to construct, produce economically and pack in larger numbers and less prone to damage during shipping as well. In that regard, nothing beats the ogee which we know that Jerome shipped overseas. From a stylistic point of view, the stenciled cases were more in the fashion of the day then the rather massive and I would suggest expensive and more labor intensive to produce pillar and scroll type cases used for most of the Ives mirror clocks or even the other forms of mirror clocks containing Ives movements.

All of this would ultimately be the end of Ives. Though important to the development the CT clock, he was kind of impractical? For example, his wagon spring and some other types of movements would soldier on in clocks made by firms involving Whiting, Atkins and so on. But they ultimately would just not make sense. Some time ago I posted an example of the Parlor Model with a wagon spring movement. Beautiful clock. But, other firms at the time were making simpler movements. Even the case was overly complicated to construct at a time when others were making ogees, steeples and beehives.

Please, other thoughts anyone?

RM

 

[Mike Mall]

Thank you for your time, and the education. I will read further on Ives as time allows.
I did already find some info on his inventive nature. Rollers, wood bearings, etc...

 

[Jim DuBois]

Thank you for your time, and the education. I will read further on Ives as time allows.
I did already find some info on his inventive nature. Rollers, wood bearings, etc...

Joseph Ives was quite a character. He brought many innovations into the trade during his lifetime. Some were great ideas, others, not so much. I have followed his work for some time, to the extent I wrote a book on some of his clocks and innovations and other contributions. The book is now out of print and I have no plans to republish it, so not trying to sell books here. If you should find one of the books I think you may well enjoy it. Even more, the work of Ken Roberts and Snowden Taylor covers Ives quite well in Roberts's book on Ives. And those can be found in the usual places, just make certain you get the "revised" version.

 

[Mike Mall]

Joseph Ives was quite a character. He brought many innovations into the trade during his lifetime. Some were great ideas, others, not so much. I have followed his work for some time, to the extent I wrote a book on some of his clocks and innovations and other contributions. The book is now out of print and I have no plans to republish it, so not trying to sell books here. If you should find one of the books I think you may well enjoy it. Even more, the work of Ken Roberts and Snowden Taylor covers Ives quite well in Roberts's book on Ives. And those can be found in the usual places, just make certain you get the "revised" version.

View attachment 705769

Thanks to you also for the information. I will continue to look for information on Ives. (including watching for your book).
There is a LOT to read about him here also. I have already read a couple of articles in the September & December 1948 Bulletins, on his work.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Thanks to you also for the information. I will continue to look for information on Ives. (including watching for your book).
There is a LOT to read about him here also. I have already read a couple of articles in the September & December 1948 Bulletins, on his work.

Joseph Ives was quite a character. He brought many innovations into the trade during his lifetime. Some were great ideas, others, not so much. I have followed his work for some time, to the extent I wrote a book on some of his clocks and innovations and other contributions. The book is now out of print and I have no plans to republish it, so not trying to sell books here. If you should find one of the books I think you may well enjoy it. Even more, the work of Ken Roberts and Snowden Taylor covers Ives quite well in Roberts's book on Ives. And those can be found in the usual places, just make certain you get the "revised" version.

View attachment 705769

In my first posting, I also mention Jim's really wonderful book which I have in my library due to his generosity. Amongst the many strengths of his publication are the insights into how these movements were produced which are derived from the firsthand evidence yielded by the movements themselves. It is an important and invaluable approach.

I will also again mention Mary Jane Dapkus' recent publication about Ives which has an appendix with a detailed account of his movements written by Peter Gosnell.

RM

 

[PatH]

Mary Jane's book is available from The American Clock and Watch Museum. American Clock & Watch Museum.
As Jim mentioned, his book is out of print, but, like RM, I am so glad to have a copy in my library.

Mike, if you are an NAWCC member, you'll find many Ives resources on the NAWCC website.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

From my investigations, the ripple fronts were all by Whiting, not Ives even though it was in partnership with Ives. All of the "signed" examples are repaints that I have seen to date. Here is an example of an original dial, and you are correct, they shed paint easily generating repaints. For all practical purposes, the only original Ives clocks with signed dials are the so-called Brooklyn model wagon springs. Only one of his glass-dialed tall clocks shows any possibility of a signature. The Olmstead and Barnes wagon spring is a repainted dial. A copy of the Brooklyn model signatures to be more precise. And here is an example of one of the repainted Atkins and Whiting ripple fronts with the incorrect signature and location. They were not in NY for example....part of the incorrect work. Nicely done but incorrect.

View attachment 705416 View attachment 705417 View attachment 705418 View attachment 705419 View attachment 705420

Re: the Olmstead and Barnes. I may be totally FOS, but my recollection is that clock sold at a Bob Schmitt Auction when he and wife # 2, Trish, were conducting the auctions in the downstairs ballroom of that hotel off of Route 3 in NH. Now it has a different name. Can't remember either one.

Pre-internet days. It was basically a glorious fragment but still it sold for many $'s. It has had rather extensive restoration since, I think including a replacement dial and tablet. The catalog is buried some place...haven't a clue where to start looking.

I become wistful when thinking about those days. Almost all bidding was in person with some left and phone bids, to be sure. The room was packed. A chance to schmooze and catch up with folks many of whom, sadly, have gone on to their eternal rest.

That experience sure beats clicking a mouse.

RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

So here are some very old photos I have of the Olmstead and Barnes, showing the likely incorrect signed dial. The photos are about 50 years old. And the last photo is of someone's "recreation of the Olmstead et. 'al. I found that in a 1973 Bulletin as an old Polaroid. Thought was pretty neat until it was noticed the wagon spring was of the 1845 patent date variety....

I would expect the dial on this clock originally said Olmstead and Barnes, like the label. But, we can see in the one photo the use of Ives roller pinions on the 2nds wheels and being driven by the wrought iron great wheels.

And I miss the old days too, seems like only a couple of years ago........

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

So here are some very old photos I have of the Olmstead and Barnes, showing the likely incorrect signed dial. The photos are about 50 years old. And the last photo is of someone's "recreation of the Olmstead et. 'al. I found that in a 1973 Bulletin as an old Polaroid. Thought was pretty neat until it was noticed the wagon spring was of the 1845 patent date variety....

I would expect the dial on this clock originally said Olmstead and Barnes, like the label. But, we can see in the one photo the use of Ives roller pinions on the 2nds wheels and being driven by the wrought iron great wheels.

And I miss the old days too, seems like only a couple of years ago........

View attachment 705943 View attachment 705944 View attachment 705945 View attachment 705946 View attachment 705948 View attachment 705949 View attachment 705950 View attachment 705951

A bit confused by the pix.

These are 2 different clocks.



Note the first picture shows a shorter clock with fluted columns, ball feet, missing the veneered panel and lower door, no label and a rather different movement.

Are there 2 of these out there...one I suspect a total confabulation based upon the other?

Good point about the wagon spring.

RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

A bit confused by the pix.

These are 2 different clocks.

Note the first picture shows a shorter clock with fluted columns, ball feet, missing the veneered panel and lower door, no label and a rather different movement.

Are there 2 of these out there...one I suspect a total confabulation based upon the other?

Good point about the wagon spring.

RM

yes, I thought I covered that with " last photo is of someone's "recreation of the Olmstead et. 'al. " Nice way of saying it is an absolute fake. The other photos are of the one and only known original, taken 50 years ago and showing the Ives claim on the dial, which is a recreation of something never originally there IMO. I have been able to inspect this clock in the flesh, and as you mention I suspect the entire dial to be a replacement. The tablet is of course a repaint. The hands are wrong IMO. But all the rest appears to be period and correct......and unique.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

yes, I thought I covered that with " last photo is of someone's "recreation of the Olmstead et. 'al. " Nice way of saying it is an absolute fake. The other photos are of the one and only known original, taken 50 years ago and showing the Ives claim on the dial, which is a recreation of something never originally there IMO. I have been able to inspect this clock in the flesh, and as you mention I suspect the entire dial to be a replacement. The tablet is of course a repaint. The hands are wrong IMO. But all the rest appears to be period and correct......and unique.

Sorry. Sometimes I'm a bit slow on the uptake.

RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

Sorry. Sometimes I'm a bit slow on the uptake.

RM

me too.....it comes and goes....

 

[PatH]

me too.....it comes and goes....

for me, it mostly goes....

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

RM, since both you and I tend to do a bit of thread drift, information on cases that are not from original makers, here is one I just came across and sold last week end. And, I had owned it for 3 View attachment 705383 View attachment 705384 years and never noticed the backboard. It is on the double ogee by Forestville as seen 2nd from the right here. The last two words appear to be "Bloody Run" which might be Civil war related. But, the general references seem to point that battle to the French and Indian war period.

Just like some of my Forums threads which start one place and sometimes end at the other end of the galaxy, so sometimes does my research.

Well, I was researching this completely non-horological item:



It's a large and impressive hand colored lithograph of the steamer the General Whitney. About that another time.

In my usual fashion, one thing lead to another and I stumbled upon some information without trying (maybe subconsciously??). I found that there was in fact a town in PA that ONCE used the name Bloody Run!

See:

Bloody Run Historical Scoiety - History and Five Names (bloodyrunhistory.org)

They may know their history but they may need a spelling lesson...or at least spell checker.

and:

View of the Village of Bloody Run – Maryland Center for History and Culture (mdhistory.org)

So, I suspect that Jim's wonderful double door Forestville 8 day weight driven ogee once spent time in small town PA!

RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

RM, that is great information and helps with the inscription for certain. The clock had been in TX for some number of years, how long anyone knows. It came out of an old collection. It has been sold once again, sold it at the SOR, and I think it has gone to Maine. Thanks again for all the research. Nice information!

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

RM, that is great information and helps with the inscription for certain. The clock had been in TX for some number of years, how long anyone knows. It came out of an old collection. It has been sold once again, sold it at the SOR, and I think it has gone to Maine. Thanks again for all the research. Nice information!

Might be interesting to contact the historical society and see if they have any info on the person mentioned?

Also interesting that early on, it lived in PA, the home of the NAWCC.

RM