Confirmation & information about : Kienzle 400 day clock

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by Wael Farahat, Jan 23, 2019.

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  1. Wael Farahat

    Wael Farahat Registered User

    Jan 23, 2019
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    Dear Folks,

    Thanks for your help in advance.

    I would like to share my latest 400 day Clock , i obtained it from a merchant in Cairo with rare condition as in PIC's.

    I want to confirm it is Kienzle clock and the date of manufacturing from the serial no#.
    I want also to confirm when maintenance is needed for it.
    Also what value you think it worth.

    And finally i saw that post: Kienzle 400 day clock
    But the watch is little bit different.

    • Can you assist plz.

    IMG_1280.jpg IMG_1281.jpg IMG_1285.jpg IMG_1286.jpg IMG_1288.jpg IMG_1293.jpg
     
  2. Jim_Miller

    Jim_Miller Registered User
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    Welcome to the message board. Pictures of the backside of the clock, the movement , will provide better answers for you.
    Jim
     
  3. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Welcome to the message board! Thanks for pictures of your clock. It would be helpful if you could also take clear pictures of the back plate as well as some views from the sides...removing the dome for the pictures would be a good idea. Also, it would be nice to see the full name of the merchant on the dial...the hands are obscuring the view.

    We're not allowed to discuss values on the forum however there is a special part of the message board where this can be done.

    Kurt
     
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  4. Wael Farahat

    Wael Farahat Registered User

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  5. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    Obviously the key gives evidence and I am fairly certain the pendulum is Kienzle, but the backplate is the definite identifier. I personally love the clocks with the retailer's name on them. Congrats.
     
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  6. Wael Farahat

    Wael Farahat Registered User

    Jan 23, 2019
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    Thanks ALL for kind words....

    Here is the latest pic’s...

    1B466DB4-5D7E-4ACD-889A-0210C3EE0732.jpeg 460EFB23-D478-49F7-A15F-3E69508E10B0.jpeg 90254EA2-27F1-416E-BFAA-5CD93182474D.jpeg 66EC6385-382A-4FC8-9B50-98249F232602.jpeg EE1DB15E-D0C7-42CC-AB0E-8A2A1757D400.jpeg 730582B0-0A0A-4E9B-8B10-8FCE7F88CAB1.jpeg 5806DB21-17AE-4682-9E85-5E37CBDD4B05.jpeg 92269D61-FADE-40E5-A7F2-E35B793A0ACD.jpeg BC783C39-5DC8-4EEA-9161-08EFD0A04AF5.jpeg DA40A5D5-B280-4B11-A5FD-8264512F3045.jpeg 939AF8C8-D39B-4F60-AEDF-23FB2B41CF37.jpeg
     
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  7. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Nov 24, 2014
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    Thanks for that. I'm beginning to think that this is not a Kienzle. The back plate is similar to #1627 in the repair guide, although the serial number is not quite in the same place but close. The maker of this clock is Badische Uhrenfabrik. The upper saddle is #1 in the repair guide which is a Basiche item. I have a note for the saddle offered by John Hubby that this particular saddle was made by Huber for both Kienzle and Badische clocks. The pendulum could be #33 by Kienzle??

    This appears to be dated to a little before 1920.

    Kurt
     
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  8. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    #8 etmb61, Jan 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
    Kurt,

    FYI, Badische made no 400 day clocks. They sold clocks made by others.

    This clock has a movement made by Huber, and was quite possibly sold by Kienzle. There are some catalogs for Kienzle and I'm pretty sure it's shown in one of them. The pendulum is Kienzle and the column finials are very similar to others I've seen on their clocks. The name on the dial is a retailer.

    This is close: https://mb.nawcc.org/attachments/1926-kienzle-pg136lores-jpg.98871/


    Eric
     
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  9. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Here is another clock with the same dial:

    i need any info

    Eric
     
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  10. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Eric -

    Thanks...I now see that buried in some of my notes. So hard to keep all this stuff straight! :clap:

    Kurt
     
  11. Wael Farahat

    Wael Farahat Registered User

    Jan 23, 2019
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    Yes Eric, it sounds the same Dial Also same merchant name on dial.
    The owner also sounds from Egypt..

    However is mine confirmed it is Keinzel 1926? And model 201??

    Or still under investigation?

    Can we confirm by serial no#?
     
  12. Wael Farahat

    Wael Farahat Registered User

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    Thanks for investigating .
     
  13. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    I don't seem to have another example in my records with those column finials, but they are similar to what is shown in one of the Kienzle catalogs. Also, a the screw supporting the back of the base, as seen in this clock, was only used by Becker and Kienzle.

    Eric
     
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  14. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    I would say it's a Kienzle. The actual date is more difficult to determine because they used several serial number series for different groups of clocks. I just don't have the data. I would say that mid 1920's is a safe estimate.

    Eric
     
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  15. Wael Farahat

    Wael Farahat Registered User

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  16. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    #16 John Hubby, Jan 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
    My database shows this clock was likely assembled by Kienzle using a Huber movement that can be dated to early 1917. It has Plate 1627, the location of the serial numbers wandered around a bit since they were hand stamped. Huber "did" continue a low level of production of their lantern pinion-pin pallet movements during WWI. The pendulum is definitively No. 33 by Kienzle, and the other characteristics mentioned by Eric support Kienzle as the assembler/seller. It "can" thus be classified as a Kienzle clock, even though Kienzle didn't make the movement.

    With regard to the Kienzle model number and date of manufacture, it is a model 201 (Hohltreiben = Lantern Pinions) as shown in their 1926 catalog. However, I have documented this identical clock made between the end of 1915 with Kienzle pendulum No. 33 first appeared, all the way to stop of Huber production in 1928. One should never use a catalog date as the manufacturing date for a clock, because most makers produced the identical model for several years. Only by serial number or other identifying characteristic such as dial logo or movement support features can you estimate the actual date of manufacture.

    As an observation, the other clock linked by Eric would have been made at the same time as this one, and I believe did have a serial number possibly inside the plates. However the owner did not respond after the clock was identified so it was not possible for me to communicate to him how to find the serial number. Another observation is that both pendulum P33 and P38 were offered as options for these clocks starting in late 1915, but the disc pendulum P38 was discontinued about the same time the 1926 catalog was published.
     
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  17. Wael Farahat

    Wael Farahat Registered User

    Jan 23, 2019
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    @John Hubby

    Much thanks ....

    You are ALL wonderful group.....
     
  18. Wael Farahat

    Wael Farahat Registered User

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    All

    I would rank it as precious watch....

    Can’t I?
     
  19. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Eric, my data and observation about Kienzle serial numbering for their 400-Day clocks shows the following:

    1) Massiv movements with solid cut pinions and Graham escapement
    The serial numbers for the huge majority of their "massiv" movements started at 100001, and were continuous for these movements until they shut down and sold that business to Kern & Link. This applied to both the rectangular and round plate movements, with no separation of the two movement designs except the round plate movements appear to have been made in small batches. The highest serial number recorded for these movements to date is 187250, indicating total production of these movements was in the order of 87500. These movements can be accurately dated by use of patents, design changes, dated advertisements, catalogs, etc.

    2) Separate serial numbers for some customer clocks
    Kienzle sold some of their massiv movement clocks to third parties, including putting the name on the back plate such as for SELSI and for Huber Uhren. A few of these clocks have been found with very low serial numbers with 1 to 5 digits and none higher than 19000. Some of these low serial number clocks have been found with no logo or name. I have a total of only 27 examples out of almost 450 in my database, and by interpolation of the numbers for each logo represented I estimate total sales of about 27,000 thus it can be concluded this was not a large part of their business being about 15% of sales. Another interesting point is that virtually all of these clocks were made either just before, during, or after WWi, with the majority in the early 1920s. This conclusion is based on other dating anchor points such as the change in the Kienzle logo in 1921, patent dates, dated advertising, and other such concrete information.

    3) Huber movement clocks with DRGM stamps DRGM 484408, DRGM 502714
    The Huber movement lantern pinion clocks fall into two groups, first being those clocks that have the DRGM stamps on the back plate. These clocks were made from about March 1912 to March or April 1915. They were serially numbered, with nearly all the serial numbers documented so far being located inside the movement plates at the bottom edge. As best I can determine I believe they were all within the same number series, as I have found examples for Kienzle, Huber, and Badische among this group of clocks in random order. The highest serial number found to date is 21969, I think that higher numbers could be found but not too much higher, as what we have now represents over 7,000 clocks per year, a very substantial output at the time. Regardless of which company made or assembled these clocks, I date them based on the premise that the serial numbers are sequential for all.

    4) Huber movement clocks with no DRGM stamp, various logos
    These movements were produced beginning about April 1915 and running continuously to second half 1928 when Huber closed their 400-Day clock manufacturing and sales business. There are four distinct back plate designs, as follows:

    (a) Clocks with back plates having a fixed anchor pivot on the back plate, with no slot, such as Plate 1663. These have an eccentric on the front plate, none have been found with serial numbers and a majority are stamped with a Kienzle logo such as Plate 1384. The earliest these would have been made is after March-April 1915; some with the "square wing" Kienzle logo have been identified (earliest 1921), etc. Few examples and not enough data to guess total production.

    (b) Clocks with back plates having a round bottom slot at the top center such as Plate 1627. Almost all of these have serial numbers on the back plates, lowest number to date 2590 and highest 47426. These movements were made only for Kienzle and Huber, and it appears there is only one set of serial numbers. Production of this design started in 1915 and continued to shutdown in 1928.

    (c) Clocks with back plates having a trapezoid shape slot at the top center such as Plate 1628. The early production of this design had serial numbers, lowest 1272 and highest 4240, with several documented with no serial number. These evidently were made for Badische, having the same unique solid anchor pallet on all examples as is found with the next movement described. They are also usually found with a Badische disc pendulum or the 3-Ball No. 28 which is thought to have been a Badische. It is believed this is the first design made for Badische after the Huber DRGM patents expired, which would date them to about 1915-1918.

    (d) Clocks with back plates having a trapezoid shape slot with additional round openings at the bottom of the slot for pallet inspection, such as Plate 1015. Many of these have a Badische logo of the letter "B" in a crescent moon stamped on the back plate. The movements were all made for Badische as best can be determined, and appeared just at the end of WWI, in 1918 or early 1919. None have been found with serial numbers, thus it is very difficult to date them accurately. From observation a large number were made and with unique designs as well. It appears that only the movements were supplied by Huber, and that Badische obtained or made all the other parts and assembled the clocks at their own factory. My estimate is that nearly as many of these were made as were the Kienzle/Huber versions, from about 1918 to 1928.

    This represents in brief most of what I have or know about Kienzle and Kienzle/Huber clocks. There is a LOT more detail involved too extensive to discuss here but that would not change the above information.
     
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  20. Wael Farahat

    Wael Farahat Registered User

    Jan 23, 2019
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    Folks,
    Can you direct me on how to maintain, on how to adjust?

    Is there any specific way to adjust ?
    Or it have discperncy in time?
     
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  21. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Basic maintenance for a 400 day clock is periodic cleaning and lubrication which, depending on the design of the movement, can be easy or challenging. Your clock has several design features that can make it a little more challenging.

    You adjust the timekeeping by turning the disk at the top of the pendulum. The disk is marked with "A R" over an arrow with "F S" below. Stop and hold the pendulum and turn the disk a small amount toward A/F to speed the clock up or toward R/S to slow it down. The earth's gravity acts on the pendulum so you need to make timekeeping adjustments in opposition to gravity. For your pendulum this means always making adjustments to slow the clock down.

    Hope this helps.
    Eric
     
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