Concordia

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Valery, Jun 8, 2016.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Valery

    Valery Registered User

    Jun 8, 2016
    8
    0
    1
    Country Flag:
    Hello.
    Here is my watch Concordia. The serial number of 36659.
    The watch was bought and taken out of Germany after the Second World war. IMG_1068.jpg IMG_1069.jpg IMG_1070.jpg IMG_1072.jpg
     
  2. Albra

    Albra Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
    1,311
    7
    0
    Greetings Valery and wellcome to the message board!

    Thank you for sharing your interesting Silesian clock! Concordias are quite rare and yours seems to be in a very good shape!

    The serial number of your clock is quite high and I assume, your clock is one of the later Concordias. (Concordia was founded in 1881 and ended in 1899, so your clock was probably made about 1895/1899.

    Best Regards!

    Albra
     
  3. Valery

    Valery Registered User

    Jun 8, 2016
    8
    0
    1
    Country Flag:
    Albra,thank you.
    Mechanism just cleaned, case restored.
    The top is missing carved details.
    Forgive my bad English. IMG_1098.jpg
     
  4. Albra

    Albra Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
    1,311
    7
    0
  5. tarant

    tarant Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    1,146
    23
    38
    Neurohorologist ;)
    Wroclaw
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Nice clock. Replace the bottom with upper finials.
     
  6. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,108
    170
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #6 John Hubby, Jun 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
    Valery, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board! Thanks for posting your inquiry and the photos of your Uhrenfabrik Concordia clock. This is a beautiful example of their work, congratulations! I do agree with Tarant that smaller finials would be appropriate for the bottom of your clock. I will review my archives for similar cases to see what other decoration may have been included for the headpiece and post that later.

    With regard to dating, Albra has posted already the years that Concordia were in operation, one of the shortest of the Freiburg makers. I'm sure he will be interested to know that my database for this maker now includes clocks with serial numbers from 4954 to 114582, a much larger number of clocks manufactured than previously estimated. These numbers would project an average annual production of nearly 6,400 clocks, which in turn would point to your clock being made about 1887 +/- .
     
  7. Albra

    Albra Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
    1,311
    7
    0
    #7 Albra, Jun 9, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    Dear John,

    the clock of Valery can not have been produced in 1877 because Concordia was founded in 1881. But of course your reference to higher serial numbers makes it likely that Valery's clock may have been manufactured before the 1895th. Thank you!

    Unfortunately, we both do not know how Concordia has used the system of serial numbers; we all know there are several variants.

    And we should not forget that companies have good and bad times. In times of crisis less clocks are sold and then workers must be dismissed. And the years 1890 -1894 were very bad in Silesia and several clocks factories have filed for bankruptcy.

    As we all know.

    Please therefore do not simply divide the highest number of serial numbers by the number of years of production to date Concordia clocks! That's not very scientific!


    Albra
     
  8. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,108
    170
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Albra and all, I apologize for the typo. The intended date was 1887 +/-. As pointed out, it could not have been 1877 as that was before Concordia was founded.

    Also, I agree that the information I have provided must be considered preliminary as the number of documented examples is still relatively small. However, I must also say that the development of data is progressing much in the same way as it has previously for Gustav Becker, R. Schnekenburger, UMMC, Endler, Germania, and Willmann (as well as a large number of 400-Day clock makers) where ample data has provided a solid basis for serial number dating. That development is not simply dividing the highest serial number by the number of years in business, but taking into full account all technical, patent, advertising, business announcement, and other relevant time dependent data.

    I need to ask the question, how do we know that Concordia used anything other than a sequential serial numbering system? While we do know that some other makers such as Carl Werner did not follow sequential numbering, they were operating on a completely different business model than the majority of the Freiburg companies. Werner was in the business of making movements for others, whereas Concordia and other Freiburg makers very evidently were producing clocks for their own sales and brand promotion.

    With regard to Concordia, at this moment there does not appear to be anything out of sequence either by serial number or design features. That certainly could change as more data is collected, on the other hand more data will be required before we can associate production rate with economic events and the like for this company.

    At this moment I have found only two movement designs made by Concordia: Single train Time-only, and two-train Time & Strike. Both are weight driven, no 3-Weight designs nor any spring driven movements have been found. It appears that very few technical changes were made over the time they were in business.
     
  9. Albra

    Albra Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
    1,311
    7
    0
    #9 Albra, Jun 9, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    Dear John,

    my knowledge about Concordia must be much more limited than yours. Because I just know the entry about Concordia in the Lexikon: Concordia was founded in 1881, but there is no information on the number of workers and the economic development of the company. We just know in 1891, the company building were expanded and in 1893 new woodworking machinery was bought. That's all.

    But also in the 1890s we know no number of workers or a number of the produced clocks/per year.

    During the time 1881-1899 not any Concordia-patents, no Concordia-ads, no official communications about Concordia in German clocks journals!

    During the Silesian crisis 1890-1894 no information on strikes, sales crisis, bankruptcies and number of dismissed workers at Concordia.

    Yes, I see there is very, very less information about Concordia!

    So what kind of exact information about Concordia do you have to date Valery's clock in 1887? Thank you in advance!

    Albra
     
  10. tarant

    tarant Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    1,146
    23
    38
    Neurohorologist ;)
    Wroclaw
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #10 tarant, Jun 9, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
    Here's Concordia No 999. In quite similar, complete case. Owner: KMZiZ forum member, kobas. Similar hands are on GB clocks since 1884-5.
    post-57457-0-95952600-1377239015.jpg post-57457-0-88551700-1377239331.jpg post-57457-0-07294900-1377239360.jpg post-57457-0-64872800-1377239152.jpg post-57457-0-06929500-1377239041.jpg
     
  11. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

    Jun 24, 2011
    2,995
    86
    48
    Male
    Medical Insurance Systems Analyst
    El Dorado, CA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I think their earlier post, Tarant was stating that the uper and lower finials should simply trade places.
     
  12. Valery

    Valery Registered User

    Jun 8, 2016
    8
    0
    1
    Country Flag:
    Greetings to all !!!
    Thanks for the interesting and informative conversation.
    I learned a lot about Concordia. The spires will change places.
    Thank you all.
    With respect from Russia , Valery.
     
  13. Albra

    Albra Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
    1,311
    7
    0
    #13 Albra, Jun 9, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    Valery, that's an interesting proverb I have never heard. Are you a chess-player?

    For a long time I want a wight driven Silesian clock! But I have yet not found one! So enjoy your clock!

    Best Regards!

    Albra
     
  14. Albra

    Albra Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
    1,311
    7
    0
    #14 Albra, Jun 9, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    Tarant, thank you for sharing this time-only clock with serial number so low. That's very interesting.

    We don't know but may be Concordia started to produce time-only movements at the beginning??

    Best Regards!

    Albra
     
  15. Valery

    Valery Registered User

    Jun 8, 2016
    8
    0
    1
    Country Flag:
    Albra, sorry I'm not a chess player.
    This watch I bought by accident on Craigslist without pictures.
    I risked,but I was lucky.
    Think you'll ever find and buy Concordia.

    With best regards, Valery.
     
  16. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,108
    170
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Piotr, I will appreciate if you could have your colleague provide a photo of the serial number with the crutch at the other side or removed. I have taken a close look and it appears to me there is another number hidden behind the crutch rod. See this enhanced photo:

    999X Serial No.jpg

    Please note that if there is not another digit there, the "999" is completely off-center which would be not at all normal. If another digit "is" there the number would be centered as is customary and then this clock would have serial number 999X. Another key point that would support the higher serial number is that the hands on this clock are identical to the next higher serial number clocks in my data, but the earlier numbers in my data have different hands. See these examples:

    4954 Dial.jpg 6906 Front Upper.jpg 999X Dial.jpg 14070 Dial.jpg 15905 Front Upper, Dial.jpg

    These clocks have serial numbers 4954, 6906, 999X, 14070, and 15905 (I have presumed the clock in discussion has serial number 999X, to be confirmed or not).

    One more comment is that although the hands used by Gustav Becker in the mid-1880's up to early 1890's are quite similar to the ones for the last three photos above, they are not the same and have important differences compared to the Concordia hands that are found on clocks with serial numbers above about 7500 and continuing to about 55000. I will post a "side by side" comparison with the GB hands later after I complete a review of my GB data to find "first and last used" for their version.
     
  17. tarant

    tarant Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    1,146
    23
    38
    Neurohorologist ;)
    Wroclaw
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hmm. This clock was presented in Concordia thread in 2013. I had doubts too, concernig bad centering of this 999. I'll ask the owner :)
     
  18. tarant

    tarant Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jul 6, 2008
    1,146
    23
    38
    Neurohorologist ;)
    Wroclaw
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #18 tarant, Jun 11, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
    And the answer is: 9990. Post from 2013 was a joke. Author showed only 999. Because "zero has no value" :coolsign: And I was a fool :(
    post-57457-0-64872800-1377239152.jpg msg-57457-0-33121900-1465666898.jpg

    And another movement. Probably unsigned Concordia 7232. With bad luck. I've never seen so many repairers annotations on the back of the dial. Oldest is from 1884.
    . 20160611_183434.jpg 20160611_184556.jpg 20160611_184030.jpg 20160611_184151.jpg 20160611_184341.jpg 20160611_184257.jpg 20160611_184408.jpg
     
  19. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,108
    170
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Piotr, thanks for the enlightenment! I am particularly pleased that the "complete" serial number 9990 has confirmed my empirical observations regarding the design of the hands and the position of the serial number on the back plate.

    I'm still compiling information regarding the GB hand design that is similar to the Concordia. The earliest example of the GB version was found near the end of 1881, coincidentally the year that Concordia started making clocks. However, the Concordia design didn't appear until about serial number 7500 as I've mentioned earlier, which would have likely been about 1883. More to come!
     

Share This Page