Comments on this cased 993

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by DeweyC, Nov 25, 2019.

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  1. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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  2. Jim Haney

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    #2 Jim Haney, Nov 25, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
    Dewey,

    All I can offer is that if your friend or you, have the watch ask him to compare the case numbers on the dust cover to the rear cover. Also, what is stamped inside the dust cover

    The Hamilton's I have in Factory cases were made by Fahy's. Fahy's has a distinct "7" that is a font unique to them. These cases were usually only sold on grade 954 and marked wear permanently
    The 954 had the dust cover 2 back case
     
  3. Tom Huber

    Tom Huber Registered User
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    In all the years have been collecting, I have never seen a Hamilton Hallmarked hunter case. the might be out there, but in 64 years, I've never seen one.
    I think that what Jim is alluding to is that the case might be a put together.

    Personal opinion is that the case exterior is not in great sharp shape. I think the price paid was rather high for the condition for this watch.

    Tom
     
  4. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Jim and Tom,

    I agree. I suppose it would not be too difficult to fit a curvette from a 95X hinged OF case. Kind of stupid, but I know people who enjoyed making fakes and fantasy pieces.

    It is coming here so I will let you know. It was not out of line for a 993 in a case; but we all hate fraud. I will put details when I have it.
     
  5. terry hall

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    Will be an interesting study!
     
  6. Rhett Lucke

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    I can attest that Hamilton did source 16s hunting cases, with the Hamilton marked dust cover, from Crescent. With that in mind, I believe the subject example is likely legit.

    My apologies for the poor pictures, but here is a similar 993.

    1EA86529-3125-4036-9DAD-5489A1137435.jpeg 5529A391-9DF1-4596-B511-A5EF4A5BE4C1.jpeg 575A12D7-5870-4514-BB87-F80C32BE8ACB.jpeg B31CF840-7F48-4A05-AE1C-9978A113F3C3.jpeg 41703039-05A8-4909-AC6C-AC9895108588.jpeg
     
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  7. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Huh. Serials on the movements are quite close, and the case serials are within 80,000. So, either two fakes with strangely close serials, or they're genuine. Occam's razor suggests they're both real.

    Lesson: You don't know what you don't know.
     
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  8. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Rhett,

    Looks like we may have some interesting previously unknown information. Thank you for sharing. I will add pics when it gets here.
     
  9. John Cote

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    Not previously unknown. These cases are scarce but they are out there. It would be very difficult to get the cuvette from one maker's case to snap closed on the back of another maker's case. It might not be impossible but it would be a real big job and I doubt anyone would think it was worth it to do it.
     
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  10. Rhett Lucke

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    As John stated, these cases are a bit uncommon - but do show up. Ive has the one above for well over 10 years and it is the second example I’ve owned. The other also being on a 993, but with significantly more wear.
     
  11. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    I guess the take away is that we need to be open that "facts" change (first tenant of science) and that we need to be open to the fact that the present state of knowledge is almost always imperfect. But THAT needs to be balanced by healthy skepticism as advocated by many here (and endorsed by me as well).

    I am just glad I was ignorant enough to buy it for my customer. Sent him the link to this conversation and he is tickled pink. I suspect the next one to show up will be much more expensive.
     
  12. Steven Thornberry

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    Jim, is the "7" shown in the pictures below the "7" you refer to? This cuvette and back cover are not from a 954 but from a 12s 912, but I have assumed the case is by Fahys because of the caduceus.

    Crest.JPG Cuvette.JPG Caduceus1.JPG
     
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  13. Jim Haney

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    Steven,
    Yes, as can be seen the "7" is different from the normal. Thanks for finding some examples to show here so people will know the case maker is it is not marked.
     
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  14. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Okay, as a card carrying Scientist, I just gotta say, it's not that facts change. Reality is what it is, and that isn't what changes. What changes is how much we know and/or understand about reality.

    There, I got it off my chest. Thank you for your indulgence.... ;)
     
  15. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Doug ,

    As a card carrying scientist with more than one publication to my name, I will tell you facts DO change. At one time it was fact that the earth was the center of the solar system. Until recently (1980s) it was fact that stomach ulcers were caused by diet and stress (today it is bacteria). There was a time when it was fact that the universe was a stable and confined space (today it is constantly expanding). I could go on, but you get the idea.

    As we develop knowledge, the facts we accepted as immutable change. This is the very nature of science. We use "facts" to help us in our current understanding with the awareness our knowledge is imperfect but mostly "good enough" for the moment until we create a new and more robust understanding.

    If we still relied on the facts of Newtonian physics, we would not have GPS today which relies on relativity for correcting time signals fro space.

    Probably no one really wants us to get into a discussion of the philosophy of science.
     
  16. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    See, we're differing on the definition of "fact". My definition is "a thing that is known or proved to be true", so by THAT definition, it was never a fact that the earth was at the center of the solar system. That was a belief, a conclusion based on the available information at the time. The Earth itself was never the center of the solar system, so better information led to the belief changing, but the fact was always that the sun is the center of the solar system.

    Science is about trying to determine what the facts are, i.e. what reality actually is, and acknowledging that what we believe to be true is really just the closest approximation we have at the moment, subject to change when better information, or a better hypothesis, become available.

    See what I mean? We're not differing in what we're saying, simply in how we define the word fact.

    But I'm right. ;)
     
  17. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Addendum: "Proved to be true" is nebulous in Science, since it's not our goal to prove our hypotheses true as it is to FAIL TO prove them false. If your hypothesis can be tested, and the testing doesn't prove it false, it's still hasn't been proved true, it's just PROBABLY true, again, subject to better information.
     
  18. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Doug,

    While as a researcher I agree, and is why in other posts I stated my hypothesis so that it can be falsified (Popper) if tested, this is way beyond the general population. Most people would say the color of the sky has been proven to be true; while you and I know the hypotheses would be worded so they can be tested.

    I would have chosen other words at a meeting professional meeting.

    The point is, what we "know to be true" (facts) changes as we improve our knowledge. In this case, today we have some strong evidence that Crescent watch Case Company made hunting cases for Hamilton. The hypothesis was "Dewey's 993 in Crescent Case is a fantasy piece". That Hypothesis was not supported by Rhett's and John's observations. And John seemed to refer to something that leads him to conclude there is some documentation about the Hamilton/Crescent link.

    These support the alternative hypothesis that CWCC had a contract with Hamilton for 16s hunting Cases.

    If there is a factory record of this link, then most people would conclude the association is "known to be true". This is why my hypothesis about the exclusive use of pendant set in the new 16S Hamilton series requires us to suspend judgment until additional information becomes available. We simply do not have the means to test between the competing hypotheses of it was an engineering decision and it was a marketing decision.

    This is the same with the hypothesis that Hamilton put only DS dials in RR grade watches such as the 950 or 992. The competing hypothesis is that Hamilton put anything on any movement if requested. In the absence of "as shipped" records, we have to suspend judgment.

    These things cannot be tested by the extant pool for observations because we know a significant number of surviving examples have been altered. This means we have to assume our sample pool is contaminated and we have to use extreme caution in interpreting observations from that.

    This particular example, (993 in Crescent Case made for Hamilton) reveals the difficulty of relying on just such observations to make judgments.

    I am certain all of this is boring others to tears; this is geeky stuff I know.
     
  19. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    See, now - i tend to use a definition of 'knowing' wherein one cannot KNOW that which is not actually true. You can BELIEVE it, you may believe you KNOW it, but you can't actually KNOW it. Again, this is a difference in the definitions of the words we're both using, not a difference in what we're saying.

    (One of Merriam Webster's definitions of "know" is "to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of", which I find internally contradictory. I have myself been CERTAIN of things that turned out not to be true at all, so I could not have been 'aware of the truth or factuality' of those things.)

    But, yes, often certainty is the enemy of knowledge, and we must always be open to having new observations upend what we thought was true.

    (Mind you, my area of collection and study is Elgin watches, where there is substantially less documentation available than Hamiltons. We glean things by observation, but ferreting out the truth is often daunting.)
     
  20. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    I am confused now. A belief is a cognitive construct formed by genetic predisposition and experience. It may or may not be based on tested/falsifiable ideas.

    In this discussion, I am talking about "knowing" within the rubric of "knowledge". Knowledge may inform a belief. But a belief does not require "knowing" within the context of knowledge (a set of "facts" vetted by a wider community).

    So your first sentence is difficult for me to unpack.

    But we agree there is a logic to the creation and discovery of knowledge. And that while experience is generally useful, belief based on that experience is not the same as knowing/knowledge.

    Should we now move on to Philosophy?
     
  21. GeneJockey

    GeneJockey Registered User
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    Yes, we're stuck in a semantic tangle. The concepts are clear, it's the words that muddle them.

    But we agree - reality doesn't change, only our understanding of it.

    Combine that with laypeople's desire for Science to give absolute answers (when mostly the answer is 'the data are consistent with the hypothesis') and you get "Science keeps changing its mind! So I'm going to keep smoking!"
     
  22. grtnev

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    #22 grtnev, Nov 26, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
    Gene, you are spot on.

    As Charlie Brown so adequately stated regarding other parts of this discussion: “Good grief”.
     
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  23. Robert Sweet

    Robert Sweet Registered User

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    I would assume the Halligan's writings are incorrect when it mentions that the Hamilton 993 was never factory cased.

    Robert

    Hamilton 993 - Not Factory Cased.jpg
     
  24. DeweyC

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    #24 DeweyC, Nov 26, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
    Robert,

    That would appear to be the case (pun....). I cannot recall now, but I have encountered other things he wrote that seemed discrepant. It was a tremendous work with no one to really go back and verify his observations so it is not surprising. He was human and therefore fallible.

    I do not know John Cote's source, but we have three observations of actual such watch cases. I was thinking of sending "mine" to Bill at Fassler's for his opinion.
     
  25. Robert Sweet

    Robert Sweet Registered User

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    Dewey,

    On another note with respect to the Crescent case, the Keystone Watch Case Co. purchased the Crescent Watch Case Co. in 1904 and continues to use their trademarks for a period of time. It would appears that the subject Crescent case was really a Keystone case with the Crescent trademark. This may or may not be of any value while discussing the Crescent case.

    Robert

    Keystone - Crescent - Trademark.jpg
     
  26. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Doug,

    I am glad we agree about the process of science and the production of knowledge. One caveat though. Not sure I agree that changes in knowledge do not change reality. That is a major philosophical discussion.
    ,
    As for how the general public interprets scientific reports; whose fault is that? In part it is the fault of the many scientists who did/do not feel the need to educate the general public about their work. For a great number of years, too many scientists just said "trust me". DDT, Agent Orange,glyphosate and so on.... This generation of scientists is stuck with the lingering damage (public cynicism) that resulted.

    And presenting facts as immutable merely sets up the general public for confusion when those facts are revealed to be pliable.

    So it goes (KV)
     
  27. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Robert,

    I wondered about that when Jim and Tom voiced their skepticism. I had thought CCWC was absorbed long before 1918. I do not know what to think about that.
     
  28. GeneJockey

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    Whose fault? Generally I blame the popular media, who tend to present studies as "showing" or "proving" something or other, when in fact the study in question likely only suggested it, and often was written full of caveats and qualifiers. That, and more cynical abuse of such studies by those who stand to make or lose a profit.

    Not that I'm saying Scientists are blameless in this! Science is done by people, after all, and it's easy to forget that one must always be one's own harshest critic. Because if you're not, somebody else will take the job!
     
  29. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    I thought it best to separate this from the other thread.

    Numbers match and the fit of the curvette is correct and appears original.

    Case No. 2492174

    Happy Thanksgiving all in USA.

    Ham_CWCC Caseback.JPG Hma_CCWC Curvette.JPG

    Ham_CWCC Caseback.JPG Hma_CCWC Curvette.JPG
     
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  30. Kent

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    Keystone continued using the Crescent trade mark at least as late as 1922.

    1922_Keystone_Trademarks_TimeAntiquarian.jpg
     
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  31. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Thanks.

    I created another thread but maybe should not have. Here are the pics of the numbers. 2492174.

    Happy Thanksgiving to all in USA.

    Ham 993 Factory Cased CWCC Case Lid No.JPG Ham 993 Factory Cased CWCC Case Back No.JPG Ham 993 Factory Case Curvette No.JPG 993 Ham_CWCC Curvette top.JPG Ham 993 Factory Cased Movt.JPG
     
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  32. DeweyC

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  33. grtnev

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    #33 grtnev, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
    Deleted
     
  34. terry hall

    terry hall Registered User
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    Perhaps the moderators can 'merge' info posted on the new thread
    Pics of Third Known 993 in Hamilton Factory CCWC Case

    to here..
    . some interesting comments are there as well as pics....

    if that happens what i am about to write will make more sense.
    I will add a couple of items from Ehrhardt books showing 'factory cased' offerings

    We physically 'see' Dewey's and Rhett's examples. What we also have 'seen' is circa 1940ish writings from Halligan,which are based on Hamilton Sales Records, and we have period advertisements stating the 993 was not factory cased.

    a conundrum for sure :) and get out the popcorn......

    For a well equipped jeweler, engraving was not a difficult effort.....

    could we be looking at a Jeweler modified case on the 3 known examples?

    to wit... Pugh Brothers seemed to have the capability to engrave... I pulled this image from a search result.... and I have a couple of these cases as well as the more elaborate ones (which may not be engraved but pressed (another topic for sure....

    .Pugh bros RR case

    but i digress....
    img_0730-jpg.jpg
    https://mb.nawcc.org/attachments/img_0730-jpg.154451/

    Please also examine post# 30 and post #35 in this thread
    Hamilton RR Watch Accessories

    Post #30 is a different jeweler, but seemingly had extensive capability....

    Ain't got a dawg in this hunt, but certainly have interest....

    No matter, a couple of very interesting watches are now 'here' and deserve examination.

    Here are 1913 and 1919 cuts about factory cased examples.
    1913 cased.jpg 1919 cased.jpg
     
  35. terry hall

    terry hall Registered User
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    Why did u delete.. i wanted moderators to insert your info in the other thread :(
     
  36. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I am going to merge the two threads as they are the same and Dewey
    added the better photos to the other thread.


    Rob
     
  37. John Cote

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    Terry,

    Do you know that Pugh Bros had the capability to engrave? I have always thought that these Pugh and other similar jeweler cases were engraved by the case makers. I think I have one that has a similar marking for Julius C Walk and Sons. I have also had one from A N Anderson.
     
  38. musicguy

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    Personally I think they are authentic factory cases. I would guess that some(even if it's very few) of the 993
    were cased by Hamilton. If one was found that would be a conundrum but when 3 have been found it
    seems real.


    Rob
     
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  39. grtnev

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    #39 grtnev, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
    It seems more probable to me, especially when one considers all of the available factory literature, that the three watches being discussed were put into Hamilton cases at some point after they left the factory.

    Thw 1915 Hamilton factory price list, as one of many examples, clearly delineates movements only vs. factory cased movements. Then there is Mr. Halligan’s records....

    These documents make it quite clear that the 993 was sold movement only and did not have a factory cased option,.

    My Daddy told me a long time ago - when you’re pushing on a rope .....

    Richard
     
  40. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Case goes to Bill Eicholz tomorrow. I think he may may be the best authority we have.
     
  41. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    And I have one from a Reading PA store. Looks just like a 954 case except engraved for the store. Wheterhold.
     
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  42. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    I also think it unlikely any store would violate Hamilton's intellectual property (trademarks). First, they would lose their account with Hamilton and likely be blacklisted Secondly, corporations were not timid about taking people to Court for such violations. In fact in order to maintain IP, the holder MUST pursue the violator.

    Given the several examples of the same style engraving with store names, and the above, I think it unlikely they were engraved by a store.

    But I will wait to hear what Bill has to say before further comment.
     
  43. terry hall

    terry hall Registered User
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    No I do not..... so a big ole hole in that theory.
     
  44. terry hall

    terry hall Registered User
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    Your posted images before deletion sure 'helped' ... can you post them again, or can a moderator re-insert them in your post and move 'in position .....?
     
  45. grtnev

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    As requested.

    Excerpt from Halligan is the first attachment
    Excerpts from Hamilton Timekeeper 1911, 1912, 1914 attachments 2-4
    Excerpts from Hamilton 1915 Price List attachments 5 & 6.

    Richard

    0_Hal0106.jpg 1 Excerpt From Hamilton_Timekeeper_1911.jpg 2_Excerpt From Hamilton_Timekeeper_1912.jpg 3_Excerpt From Hamilton Timekeeper ca 1914.jpg 4_Excerpt From  Hamilton_Price_List_1915_Page_1.jpg 5_Excerpt From Hamilton_Price_List_1915_Page_2.jpg
     
  46. Robert Sweet

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    #46 Robert Sweet, Nov 27, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
    FYI,

    The attached Halligan page also excludes the 993 being sold as a "complete watch"

    Robert

    Sold Complete 16 Size Hamilton.jpg

    (edit) The 996 (not mentioned above) was sold as a complete watch beginning in 1924. Not sure why it isn't listed.
     
  47. Bila

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    #47 Bila, Nov 28, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2019

    Are not all the watches presented here in Hamilton marked cases manufactured after the catalog information that has been presented here was produced, So really those catalog cuts do not apply to these 2 watches, all we have is Halligan's writings well after the event from his memory. In Robert Sweet's last post he mentions Halligan has forgot about the (post 1924) factory cased Grade 996, so he got that wrong/omitted, so what other mistakes has he made through-out his other writings? Why is it so hard to believe that the Grade 993 was later Factory cased, as was the Grade 996?

    It is amazing the things/believes we fall back on when something appears that we have not seen before. Even taking in to account Terry's post about info from a 1919 catalog (which was probably published in early 1919) is still before Dewey's watch even got out of the finishing room, as it is for the other example, if I read the serial numbers correctly (Dewey's never went there until December 5th 1919). So for mine these watches have been Factory cased until later documentation other then just Halligan's musings raises to the surface, or someone can produce advertisements or the like that are post publishing date of the watches in question:)

    Erin
     
  48. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Erin,

    This goes back to the discussion of knowledge and research. We must always bear in mind our knowledge is imperfect and that human beings (Halligan included) are fallible.

    All of your points are valid, the catalog dates and particularly the observation that we know Halligan contained discrepancies. Now we know he also never reported the cased 996s.

    Like all historical research, we should be cautious when one source is available.

    I hope you are not worked up, I certainly am not. Numbers match, fonts are the same, hinges look good and we know that no one in their right mind would have infringed on Hamilton's Trademark. We know there are numerous examples of the same style engraving but they are engraved for specific jewelers from widely distant cities.

    But the existence of these watches cannot be argued away simply because they do not fit what we think we know. Some time ago I posted shot of a 1902 972 with the 1920s 992 striped finish. That led us to understand a notation in the finishing records.

    The argument so far offered would then conclude, that since my 972 was not cataloged, and since Halligan did not mention it, that this physical 1902 972 must not really exist (or worse, is faked).

    All I know is now we have three reports of the same configuration. That is a stubborn fact. Is the claim that all things Hamilton has been discovered? Therefore nothing new is possible? My 972 would seem to pierce that position.

    Reminds me of the storied US Patent Office Director who declared the Office should be terminated since everything that could be invented had been.

    I will let everyone know what Bill Eichholz has to say.

    For those in the USA, Happy Thanksgiving.
     
  49. 179

    179 Registered User
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    The examples I have of these factory cased Hamilton's are boxed with the card and numbers. I will wait for a boxed 993 factory cased with numbers to surface before making final judgement.
     
  50. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Aug 26, 2000
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    Count me in as a skeptic (about the literature - not the watches). A knowledgeable previous poster (who has since been banned) used to say (well,write) that "The watches tell the story." meaning that the literature isn't always correct.


    Do you have specific examples of Hamilton "... taking people to Court for such violations ..." or are you just generalizing?


    To all who posted catalogs describing cased watches:

    These indicated which grades were available as factory cased watches (at the date of publication). They don't state which grades were not cased. Those grades not listed may, or may not have been factory cased. After all, the grade No. 992 was offered as a movement only, right up to the time it was offered as a cased watch.

    Cased grade No. 993 movements may have been available in small quantities and not have been cataloged, Or, they may have been created to fill a special order. Either way, they may have escaped Halligan's notice (as others have posted - he didn't get everything right).

    If there was only one example, I'd be inclined to believe that it was cased after leaving the factory. With two or three examples it seems that they were factory cased. Or, and I didn't notice this mentioned previously, its possible that a jobber (or even a retailer) ordered the cases from Hamilton to create the cased watches.

    With newly digitized material becoming available on a daily basis, we may someday learn the answer to these factory-cased grade No. 993 movements - when a news release or an ad shows up.
     
    GeneJockey likes this.

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