Columbus Watch Company,

Allan C. Purcell

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So I have found another, and as you know I am buying these on the ground they are coin silver, plus they must also work, and not cost the earth.

This watch was produced by the Columbus Watch Company, so I read up on the company in Engle, Gilbert and Shuggart´s Watches. The first thing that struck me was "By 1884 they were making their own dials, but no cases were ever manufactured" it later says cases were Nickle or Guilt. Then I see the early ones were made in Switzerland. I have learned enough to know the movement in this watch is American, but by who? So by now, I am beginning to think about buying this watch. It says on the plate Columbus watch Co. (Which doesn´t make watches). it's in a coin silver case, that they never used. (I did look at those in "Watches" none found in silver cases). (This watch has a "4 oz. Champion Coin Silver Case).

So what to do? In the end, I decided to buy it on the grounds of the seller, who I know can service and clean watches. I can then find out more when the watch arrives from Australia.

s-l1601.jpg
Here is a photograph of the movement, which tells me there is only one screw to hold it in the case. This makes me think of Hamilton Then for the first time, I notice the stamp on the case "DUEBER PATENT" ?? Then I looked at Hamilton, and I notice the plate over the barrel, just like my new watch, I then read Hamilton brought out the 936 models in 1893, so confusion creeps in again, or is it Hampden (Dueber), now scratching my head.


.


.

Having looked at the above, I think this watch was produced by Dueber-Hampden, but the engraving is for Columbus Watch Co. does this mean the serial number is also put on there for the Columbus firm??


I give up, for now, am I getting warm?? I will let you know more when it arrives.

Allan. s-l1602.jpg s-l1603.jpg
 
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Harvey Mintz

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So I have found another, and as you know I am buying these on the ground they are coin silver, plus they must also work, and not cost the earth.

This watch was produced by the Columbus Watch Company, so I read up on the company in Engle, Gilbert and Shuggart´s Watches. The first thing that struck me was "By 1884 they were making their own dials, but no cases were ever manufactured" it later says cases were Nickle or Guilt. Then I see the early ones were made in Switzerland. I have learned enough to know the movement in this watch is American, but by who? So by now, I am beginning to think about buying this watch. It says on the plate Columbus watch Co. (Which doesn´t make watches). it's in a coin silver case, that they never used. (I did look at those in "Watches" none found in silver cases). (This watch has a "4 oz. Champion Coin Silver Case).

So what to do? In the end, I decided to buy it on the grounds of the seller, who I know can service and clean watches. I can then find out more when the watch arrives from Australia.

View attachment 711925
Here is a photograph of the movement, which tells me there is only one screw to hold it in the case. This makes me think of Hamilton Then for the first time, I notice the stamp on the case "DUEBER PATENT" ?? Then I looked at Hamilton, and I notice the plate over the barrel, just like my new watch, I then read Hamilton brought out the 936 models in 1893, so confusion creeps in again, or is it Hampden (Dueber), now scratching my head.


.


.

Having looked at the above, I think this watch was produced by Dueber-Hampden, but the engraving is for Columbus Watch Co. does this mean the serial number is also put on there for the Columbus firm??


I give up, for now, am I getting warm?? I will let you know more when it arrives.

Allan. View attachment 711940 View attachment 711941
That's a Columbus Watch Co. watch, circa 1887. Why do you think they never made movements? The **initial** Columbus movements wee put together in Columbus OH. from parts made for them in Switzerland (to Dietrich Gruen's design, Gruen being the guy that started the company), but they soon established their own manufacturing to make full plate 18 size watches.

It's a nice movement.
 

John Arrowood

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From George Townsend's book "Almost Everything You Wanted to Know About American Watches and Didn't Know Who To Ask" illustrations by the author, self-published 1971
Columbus Watch Co., Nov18-1892-1901. Columbus, Ohio. The 1892 date may be incorrect.
D. Gruen p, g/m. Other officers are listed.
Succeeded Gruen &Savage who imported Swiss watches between 1872-1882. They made 4, 6, 16, and 18 size watches at a rate of 150 a day.
Sold to South Bend Watch in 1903.
More information may have come to light since 1971.
They may have done as other makers did and sold their movements uncased so that the buyer could chose the case from the stock available at the final seller's shop.
I think Mr. Gruen later on set up the Gruen Watch Company of Cincinnati, OH.
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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Hello Harvey,

This thread was moved from another thread I started "Waltham Models & Dates. It is about coin silver cases, the first one I bought was a Dueber hunter coin silver case which had a Waltham movement. Has you can see the one above is a 4oz Champion/ or Dueber case, the movement is from
the Columbus Watch Company. I am a starter when it comes to American watches, and you would have known this from the first half of this thread, why and who moved it here I don´t know. I have reported it, and then maybe it will be put together again. To answer your question my information on the Columbus watch company came from the book WATCHES by Engle, Gilbert & Shuggart. 2009. page 166. I also have a copy from 1997, though the story is different.

John, thank you for your interest, according to Engle, Gilbert, & Shuggart the firm was first formed in 1874-1903. Though as said my main interest at the moment is about the cases put on American watches.

Thank you both again,

Allan
 

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Thank you, Miguel,
Very good story, can I ask you who made the case, and is it rolled 14k gold?:cool:

Allan.
il_794xN.1902620205_j1h1.jpg




Yes Allan C. Purcell its a 14k gold filled 20 years Guarantee

20191116_114645 1.jpg
 

Allan C. Purcell

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If anyone wants to know how this thread started, please look at "Waltham Models & Dates". Is there any chance that the title for this thread could be changed to "Coin Silver watch cases"??
 

musicguy

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We already have a coin thread that has 5 pages.
You started the original thread as, "Waltham Models & Dates. "
and there are many comments on that. We do not change the title
of threads as the author decides to change topic during thread. Please
start a new thread for every different topic or add to our existing threads
thanks.

Rob
 

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It's in a coin silver case, that they never used. (I did look at those in "Watches" none found in silver cases). (This watch has a "4 oz. Champion Coin Silver Case).
"Champion" was a case grade produced by the Dueber Watch Case Company. Most are gold-filled (both 10K and 14K varieties), but the company produced a "Champion" coin silver case in the late 1880s for a short period of time.

It is not unusual to find a Columbus movement in a case manufactured by the Dueber Watch Case Company.

This page contains a breakdown of the "Champion" grade with indexed catalog sources and several surviving examples contributed by various collectors:

 

Allan C. Purcell

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Hi Rob, I think now I am slowly beginning to understand the system, if I try to date the watch case (coin Silver, which has no hallmarks or date) and I think the watch case is original, I could look at the serial number on the movement for, an about date. Though if I mention the name of the movement maker, I need a new thread and need to be careful not to have a thread that's not been used before. By the way, I did not start with "Waltham Models and Dates" I got it without being asked, or given time to start a new thread. No need to answer, I will start a new thread. "The Dog Without a lead, or a Horse without a Saddle"

Allan.
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Nathan, thank you for the information above, though finding a Dueber coin silver case on a Columbus watch is rare indeed. There are none in the "WATCHES" books.
Allan.
 

musicguy

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Though if I mention the name of the movement maker, I need a new thread and need to be careful not to have a thread that's not been used before.
The bottom line is that if a thread is about Waltham's keep it that
way. You do not need to use old threads if you want to start a new one.
You can have a thread mentioning multiple makers in it if it's appropriate to the
thread title.


Rob
 
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thesnark17

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The Columbus Watch Co. was a purely American watch company for most of its history.

Timeline:
1874 - Dietrich Gruen patents a Safety Pinion. This is often claimed as the formation date of the company but available evidence is against it.
1876 - Gruen begins importing Swiss components and building watches. The firm will be renamed several times before 1882 as it grows.
1882 - Organization into a proper company with stock. Dietrich Gruen is the president, and the new company is named the Columbus Watch Co.
1883 - CWCo. opens a new factory building and begins manufacturing movements made entirely in America.
1893 - Hostile takeover due to financial panic. Dietrich Gruen resigns and leaves to form a new company that will become the Gruen Watch Co.
1894 - Under new management. Company renamed New Columbus Watch Co.
1902 - The Studebaker brothers buy the ailing NCWCo, with grand plans for a renaissance.
1903 - The renamed South Bend Watch Co. begins production in a new factory in South Bend, Indiana, using machinery and employees moved from Columbus.
1926 - SBWCo. begins to focus on the mail order watch segment of the industry.
1929 - SBWCo. ceases production at the end of the year.
1930 - SBWCo. declares bankruptcy, due to decreased demand for its products and a large amount of bad debt from mail order watches.
1932 - All assets sold at auction. End of the South Bend Watch Co.

The first ~20,000 watches were built from Swiss parts. The Columbus Watch Co. in all its iterations built about 390,000 watches (~370,000 purely American), and the South Bend Watch Co. built approximately 1 million more.
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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I have just bought another Dueber Coin Silver pocket watch case. Though dew to holidays, and distance, I won´t be able to receive it till the middle of July. This Dueber case has an American watch inside. I will let you know when it arrives.


0-2.jpg

Best Wishes,

Allan.
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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So I got back from my break at Bad Zwischenahn on Friday night (The first of July, your big day of the year is today I believe?) Anyway, there was a delivery on Saturday that turned out to be a small disappointment, it turned out not to be a coin silver case, as said on the blurb. (No photographs) but I put it down to my own greed. The movement is the H. L. Culver and the case is Silveriod. Runs well though, and keeps good time, better than no case I suppose. I will put it on my " Greedy and Impulsive list" way down.

Then today, I got lucky. When I got back from walking the dog, there was a small packet in my post box. It was sent to me from the UK, and there were no extra postage or import duties. You would think that was enough, but no, inside was one of the best coin silver hunter-cased watches I have seen so far. It does have one or two little annoyances, on the push button some nut tried to get off I think by putting two holes, one on each side to get it off, then there are two small scratches on the inner cover, maybe someones kids playing with. The rest is first class. Serial number 735356, 1874?

After doing this I noticed the Coin Silver case thread from 2008, by Musicguy. I think I will move over there when the other two from Australia arrive.

IMG_1374.JPG Fogg Patent by the spring plate. IMG_1373.JPG


IMG_1370.JPG The attack on the button, on both sides. IMG_1371.JPG

IMG_1375.JPG IMG_1378.JPG

Any information will help.

Allan. IMG_1377.JPG
 
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musicguy

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This is a worn case from long term use.

1656945764381.png




Rob
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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Hi Rob, a very informative comment, maybe you would like to explain how two holes in the side of a push-button could possibly happen. Maybe the photographs don´t present it to its best, everything else works as it should, and it keeps a very good time. Re-placing the button will be no problem, that can be excepted on a watch that is 148 years old.

Allan.
 

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The silver on the crown is pretty thick, but not thick enough to withstand the wear it received in someone's pocket for about 70 years at a guess.
It was made between June and October of 1874.

It was a high grade watch for a working man and one of Waltham/s best sellers. The 4 holes jeweled refer to the train pivots in the back plate. The only jewels under the dial are the balance jewel and end stone. http://nawccinfo.nawcc.org/LookupSN.php?serial=735356
 

Allan C. Purcell

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1663686960839.png

Rob, I am putting the information on this Columbus watch here, because the thread is named Columbus Watch Company. If you remember I was at the time I posted here, my interest was (still is) coin silver watch cases, This coin silver case is marked with "Dueber Pat. AP O FOR 44 25" on the inner rim. It also has 4 ( 4oz, Silver, the watch weighs in at 187 Gr.?) then 984425 on the inner cover. Am I right that the above 4425 is part of this patent case? Dueber started making cases in 1864, so the case was before thy bought the Hampden Watch Company in 1886, this Columbus watch being made in 1884.

This then, is the watch I bought on the 18th of June this year, and after travelling 21 thousand miles, arrived this morning. Must be a good day, I got my first covid test telling me I was "NEGATIVE" this morning.

Sorry to say this watch had nothing to do with "Columbus Time King" This being a model 1. (See above).

1663698939310.png


I have one other on its way, now that I have a negative document, I can pick it up from the customs in Münster.

Allan.
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Today I picked up the Columbus from the Münster Customs office, seeing that the watch is a PL, I searched the forums for Columbus Private Labels, but could not find one. On the dial, it has in Gothic "John P. Mill. I could not find him either, though he could have been the first owner of the watch.

Details Above.

Allan.

IMG_1651.JPG
 
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musicguy

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Allan C. Purcell

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PatH

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Allan C. Purcell

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Hi Pat, you really are jem. When I searched Canadian Jewellers I could not find John Mill-strange. Anyway, these threads make up for all that. I ordered his book this morning on Amazon, it should be here Monday.

Thanks again,

Allan.
 
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musicguy

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Allan,

I like your enthusiasm.

Regards,
Rob
 

Allan C. Purcell

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1664012063937.png


Hi Pat, seeing she is the only Lady on the above I thought I should look her up. Not much to find. Though she was born 4th. Mar- 1892. She must have been about 18 when she went to the Horological School, so c1910, so her two years (1812) were just before the school closed in 1813. What this talented young woman did after 1813, we know nothing, but she did marry Dr James Bryce Brown in 1823. Later they got divorced, and no date was given. I must try harder, I want to know what she did for those ten years before her marriage
To be cont..
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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Hi Pat, this covid thing is getting on my nerves, I just looked up at the above, and noticed the date mistakes. yet I read it through more than once yesterday, and I saw no mistakes. Anyway, good comes out of evil, the date 1987 started to ring a bell, and it was then I remembered it was the year I joined the NAWCC, I then jumped up to look at my old copies of the Bulletin. There they were, April to December 1987. (I lost a lot of my old copies when I got divorced in 2002) So I was able to read in comfort the whole story of Henry R. Playtner, in the hope of reading more about Eleanor Taylor. It was not to be. You may not like this, but I joined the NAWCC to read the articles of Charles Aked. We were friends from 87 to his death, he really was a remarkable man. I had then no interest in American clocks and watches, (You may have noticed) It was Charles who put me in touch with Henry B. Fried and Dana Blackwell. Patricia H. Atwood, David Landes and Amy J Smith. I was writing then about the Hornby's of Liverpool. I spent a lot of time sending letters to America then, though it was all about English watches from Liverpool. All these people were very kind to me and put up with my questions, Dana Blackwell went so far as to send me two movements by Richard Hornby. It´s true "Time Flies"


IMG_1652.JPG IMG_1653.JPG

Allan.
 
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