Columbus Kings

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by John Cote, Jul 1, 2001.

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  1. John Cote

    John Cote Director
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  2. John Cote

    John Cote Director
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  3. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    John:

    These are really nice. Thanks for posting them.

    Kent
     
  4. John I am green nice watches bought tears to my old eyes thanks for posting.;-)
     
  5. Steve Maddox

    Steve Maddox Guest

    Absolutely beautiful! What a great set!



    ------------------
    Steve Maddox
    VP, NAWCC Chapter #62
    North Little Rock, Arkansas
     
  6. Rhett Lucke

    Rhett Lucke Board Secretary
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    Check out how close the three serial numbers are.

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  7. Steve Maddox

    Steve Maddox Guest

    R.J.,

    I believe that all the Columbus Kings and Railway Kings with 21 or more jewels, are from a special serial number block between 500,001 and 506,000. I have a 23 jewel Railway King (HC), whose serial number is in that same range.

    SM
     
  8. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Oh come on Steve,

    Please share the S/N and details with us. How is the dial signed? With "21 Jweels"? Roman or Arabic?

    Kent

    [This message has been edited by Kent (edited 07-01-2001).]
     
  9. Steve Maddox

    Steve Maddox Guest

    Kent,

    I'll be more than happy to share the details of my 23 jewel Columbus Railway King (in fact, I sent them to Paul Heffner a while back for future publication in the "Bulletin"). At the moment, however, the watch is with most of my others in a safety deposit box at the biggest bank in Little Rock, and my serial number list is in the safe at my shop, which is on the other side of town (I am now at home).

    As for the dial, it's apparently not the one originally made for it. It's a blue and white porcelain multicolor type, with the words "New Columbus" printed on it in block print. Since this dial is also rare, my guess is that it was probably installed on the watch at the original time of sale, and has been on it ever since. The watch appears to be original in every way, but it was purchased from a Little Rock estate, and I have no actual history on it.

    SM
     
  10. John Cote

    John Cote Director
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    Larry,

    I can't really see from the picture, but how is the rest of this watch jeweled? None of the Kings in my photo have a cap jewel on the barrel. The 21 has a setting to make it look like it has a jeweled barrel but there is no jewel. It has cap jewels on the pallet fork and escape wheel like a normal 21j watch. The 23 ads hole jewels on the barrel.

    I would say yours is a weird config. I guess since most of these extra jewels are fluff anyway, they could do what ever they wanted.

    JohnCote
     
  11. John,

    The rest of the jeweling configuration was as you would normally expect on a 21 jewel (cap jewels on pallet and escape wheel arbors), but I never checked the dial side. The cap jewel on the barrel didn't look very functional, but looked original.

    Larry
     
  12. John Cote

    John Cote Director
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    Larry,

    It looks original to me, but wouldn't that make it at least 22 jewels?

    JC
     
  13. John,

    The watch is already gone so I can't check, but my guess is that one of the cap jewels may have been omitted from the dial side to keep the count to 21. I found the setup very odd - not sure I've ever seen a cap jewel on a barrel arbor before...

    Larry
     
  14. Steve Maddox

    Steve Maddox Guest

    Kent,

    The serial number of my CRK is 503431, and I made a special trip to the bank Monday so I could get it and make some scans for you. Perhaps you may want to use this one as well in an upcoming Bulletin article, as you are the Ball 999 Canadian Montgomery pictures I sent you in reply to another recent request.

    This watch was a gift to me from my mother and father on my 30th birthday. I'm sorry that the quality of my "scanner photography" doesn't compare with the images John posted, but I did the best I could. The first link is the movement and dial, and for anyone interested, the second is the case. I guess I should replace that bow, shouldn't I?
    http://members.aol.com/nevarietur/My23CRKmvmt.JPG
    http://members.aol.com/nevarietur/My23CRK.JPG



    ------------------
    Steve Maddox
    VP, NAWCC Chapter #62
    North Little Rock, Arkansas
     
  15. John Cote

    John Cote Director
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    It is interesting that the SN of Steve's RR-King is closer to that of the 25j in my picture, and the damascening pattern is the same. I wonder at what point they went to the new damascening pattern or if some watches continued to have different patterns?

    JohnCote
     
  16. Steve Maddox

    Steve Maddox Guest

    I noticed that myself, and was wondering the same thing.

    Doesn't anyone else here have any additional ones of these?

    SM
     
  17. rrwatch

    rrwatch Registered User
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    Kent and I have been collecting data on the 21 jewel and up Columbus watches for a while now. We are trying to record enough serial number data to determine what the production runs and quantities are for all the different grades, jewel counts, etc.. This thread has given us quite a number of additional movements to add to what we had already collected. Please keep posting the data or send it to either Kent or myself. For companies such as Columbus, data from actual watches is the best (and sometimes the only) way of putting together an accurate picture of what was really produced.
    A couple of obsevations that I've noticed so far:

    Movements with the jeweled barrels use settings with three screws, plain metal settings are held with two screws. Concerning Greg's watch, which has two screws holding the setting, is it possible that a watchmaker substituted a jewel to replace a badly scored metal bearing?

    Two distinct damaskeening patterns seem to have been used, there doesn't seem to be any serial number correlation between them. I've wondered if the factory had two different damaskeen engines (or possibly two different skilled operators,) each using their own pattern?

    Some of the movements contain the words "Columbus, Ohio" engraved on the barrel bridge, others omit it. Again, I haven't seen any correlation to either the serial number, or the damaskeen pattern. Two different engravers perhaps?

    A couple of movements seem to be misidentified in the published literature. From the location of the case screws, I believe S/N 503,073 is a hunting case movement and S/N 504,971 is an open face movement.

    ------------------
    Ed Ueberall
    NAWCC #49688
     
  18. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Aug 25, 2000
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    Identifying OF vs. Htg Columbus.

    Without seeing the actual location of the setting mechanism I use the following to determine whether a Col. mvt is OF or Htg. Look between the balance bridge and the barrel bridge. If there is a plate screw there in addition to the case screw then it's an OF. If there's only a case screw then it's a Htg.

    Greg
     
  19. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Steve and Others:

    To add to what Ed said, we apprciate the effort you all are going through to furnish the information and scans. Making a special trip to the safe deposit box, as in Steve's case, is certainly above and beyond the needs of the conversation on this thread.

    Please accept our thanks for the assistance. We're not sure when it will be published, but a column on this has been over a year in the making and we've still got a long way to go.

    Kent
     
  20. John Cote

    John Cote Director
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  21. I was able to inspect the watch that I listed the images of above, again today. It is:

    505620-CK-21-Htg

    BUT, it does have 22 jewels. I pulled the dial and carefully inspected both plates. The layout is standard for an 18s 21 jewel with cap jewels on
    both ends of the pallet and escape arbors. The center wheel is jeweled on both arbors. The extra jewel is a cap jewel on the end of the barrel arbor
    and looks completely original to me.

    Larry
     
  22. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    John Cote,

    Is it possible to repost the original photographs or a link to them?

    Thanks
    Rob
     
  23. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

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    If someone is still keeping numbers I can add one. #503213 is an OF 23j Columbus King with a Roman DS dial. Sad to say its only a junker thats missing the gears and balance wheel.-Cort
     
  24. luvsthetick

    luvsthetick Registered User

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    Does your movement have a non-matching # barrel bridge?

    According to records #503213 should be 1 of 100 Railway Kings, not a Columbus King.

    DSC_0002.JPG
     
  25. John Cote

    John Cote Director
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    I do need to get this site up an running again.
     
  26. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

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    I'll check tomorrow.-Cort
     
  27. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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  28. 4thdimension

    4thdimension Registered User

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    All plates on #503213 match. -Cort
     
    luvsthetick likes this.
  29. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    I believe that people overlook the fact that, as mentioned in the "Columbus Watch Co." Encyclopedia article, the Hampden Watch Co.'s exclusive right to the use of the word "Railway" on watches was granted by the courts.

    This would have occurred during the production of the 23-jewel Railway King watches (at a slow rate since expensive watches were slow sellers) and movements in progress not yet marked would have to be given a different name, i.e., "Columbus King". Of course, like in many watch companies, apparently the movements weren't finished in sequential order.

    Ed Ueberall and I have the following serial numbers from the run listed in our data base of surviving examples of railroad watches and other interesting (to us) watches:

    503,201 - Railway King
    503,204 - Columbus King
    503,211 - Columbus King
    503,213 - Columbus King - Just added
    503,216 - Columbus King
    503,221 - Columbus King
    503,261 - Railway King
    503,281 - Columbus King

    As always, the data listed is subject to possible errors of reporting or recording.
     
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  30. watchbob

    watchbob Registered User
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    Columbus King serial# 503,970
     
  31. George Frick

    George Frick Registered User
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    I have a watch you are probably already aware of. 18s 23j marked Columbus Railway King on movement and Columbus King 23 jewels on dial.
    Movement serial 503467
    HC recase.
    Thanks for this thread and information i have found.
     
  32. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Thanks George:

    Ed and I entered serial number 503467 into our data base when it appeared on eBay a few years back, but we might have missed it; so I appreciate you post.
     

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