Columbus King

[John Pavlik]

Another recent Columbus acqusition.. Is this a common model..would anyone speculate on the number produced as opposed to the higher jeweled versions.. and yes if anyone feels the need I will accept, with proper payment, a regulator spring and screw set..

 

[Tom Huber]

Hi John, I have a 17J Columbus King like yours with a slightly higher SN. Yours has the original matching Col King dial. Mine does not. Oddly enough, I also had to obtain a regulator whip spring for mine.

I am unaware of what percentage of Columbus Kings were 17J.

Tom

 

[Kent]

Here are the 17-jewel Columbus King watches listed in our data base (which now includes John's watch). You can draw your own conclusions as to the size of the runs:

319,094 - OF

363,639 - HC

364,070 - OF
364,100 - OF

366,931 - OF
367,083 - OF
367,150 - OF

367,446 - HC
367,460 - HC
367,498 - HC

369,116 - OF
369,119 - OF
369,191 - OF

370,864 - OF
371,473 - OF

371,564 - HC
371,573 - HC

371,900 - OF - Last 2 Dgts Ukn

[colour=blue]371933 - OF - Railway King Grade[/colour]

[colour=blue]371984 - OF[/colour]

372,176 - Type not reported
372,267 - Type not reported

Tom, is your watch listed here? If not, would you please share the serial number and details?

The breakdown of the 500,000 series watches, which includes the higher jeweled Columbus Kings, appears on page 361 of the June 2003 Bulletin.

[colour=blue]Edited to add 371933 Railway King & 371984 Columbus King[/colour]

Thanks,

 

[Kent]

I came across a [colour=red]Private Label 17-Jewel Columbus King[/colour] that hadn't been recorded in the data base yet. The above list of these watches has been edited to add it and to show a Railway King that indicates that the 371901-372000 group of serial numbers isn't all Columbus King grade.

Keep in mind that these watches were being built just about the time that U.S. Patent Office awarded priority to Dueber-Hampden for the [colour=red]Use of the Word "Railway" on Watch Movements[/colour].

 

[Danwatch]

Add 17j Railway King SN 344295

 

[Kent]

Open-face or Hunting? How is the dial marked? Lever-set or pendant set?

Thanks,

 

[Tom Huber]

Hi Kent, Mine is 367,056 and is open face and lever set. The top plate is exactly like John's watch as pictured above.

I got mine as a movement only without dial. Mine now has a DS roman dial with Columbus Watch Co in gothic script--not marked Columbus King.

Tom

 

[John Pavlik]

Thanks Kent..... great info... any watch companies that you do NOt keep a data base on..

Past thru ebay recently.. # 313027 Railway King.. Tu-tone movement..17 Jewels... Open face, double sunk dial signed Columbus Railway King.. Lever set..

 

[Danwatch]

Open-face or Hunting? How is the dial marked? Lever-set or pendant set?

Thanks,

Kent:
Must pull the watch from the bank to check. I know it is open face, lever set. Will let you know when I retrieve it.

 

[Kent]

Kent:
Must pull the watch from the bank to check. I know it is open face, lever set. Will let you know when I retrieve it.

Thanks! No rush, but when you do, please check if it has tu-tone damaskeening on the top plate. Most of the Railway King movements in that serial number range are tu-tone.

It's probably marked "Adjusted" but is it marked "17 Jewels"? If not, it might very well be a 16-jewel movement. You'd have to pull the dial and check for the lower center jewel to be sure. A lot of Railway King movements are/were reported as being 17-jewel movements because of the upper center jewel, but the Railway King was produced as a 16-jewel movement for years. The 17-jewel Railway King didn't come out until later (i.e., higher serial number) and were marked as such on the top plate.

[colour=blue]P.S. John - Thanks, I did see 313027 on eBay. I recorded it as a 16-jewel watch (because of the above) with a note that the seller said that it was a 17-jewel watch. My experience with the vast majority of the American full plate movements is that if they aren't marked "17 Jewels" (or higher) than they aren't and if they have an upper center jewel, they're most likely 16-jewel movements. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are few and far inbetween.[/colour]

Thanks again,

 

[Danwatch]

Open-face or Hunting? How is the dial marked? Lever-set or pendant set?

Thanks,

Still looking...
Meanwhile, SN 371481, 17j Columbus King, identical to the picture John Pavlik posted above. OF, lever set, dial marked "Columbus King" "17 Jewels"

 

[StanJS]

I'm looking at a Columbus Railway King, 18s, 17J, with a blue choo-choo & "Columbus Railway King" on the dial. Do we have any estimate of how many of these were made? Are they (un)common?

Thanks,
Stan

 

[Jon Hanson]

Th blue dials are much more scarce than the black ones.

 

[Jerry Treiman]

Kent - if you are collecting "Railway King" numbers, I have 349,861. It is 18-size, open-face, lever-set, 16-jewel (unmarked) with two-tone damasceening, gilded plate screws and gilded whiplash. Dial is double-sunk with upright arabic numbers and red five-minute numerals; "Columbus" is in simplified Old English font in a straight line.

 

[Kent]

Thanks Jerry!

I've added it to the data base.

 

[StanJS]

I'm looking at a Columbus Railway King, 18s, 17J, with a blue choo-choo & "Columbus Railway King" on the dial. Do we have any estimate of how many of these were made? Are they (un)common?

The above one is OF, S/N 364,568, Roman 12 hr with a black track and red 5 minute markers dial, Two Tone movement.

Cheers,
Stan

PS. Kent, you (and other researchers) may want to check out this website for research purposes:

http://www.worthpoint.com/

The Worthopedia collects auction prices from all over. Select "Prices" enter "columbus pocket watch" in the search field and you'll get about 200 watches. Many have serial numbers. Regrettably, many do not have movement pictures but there is often enough of a verbal description to fill in many database blanks.

 

[Kent]

Thanks Stan:

I'll have to look further into this site when I get some time - right now I'm in the middle of poking through J&H's old auctions.

I wonder if this watch (S/N 364,568) is really 17-jewels. I think (but I may be wrong) that all of the 17-jewel Railway Kings are marked "17 Jewels" and are nickel damaskeened movements - no tu-tone gold.

 

[StanJS]

>> I wonder if this watch (S/N 364,568) is really 17-jewels.

I wondered the same. However, it is smack between two 17J (364,100 & 364,756) watches in Sam Kirk's database. I decided to take the owner's word.

Also, did you see the Ruby (S/N 501,347) on eBay recently?

Cheers,
Stan

 

[Kent]

I must have missed seeing S/N 501,347. If you have a link to it, or an eBay number, I'd appreciate it.

Regarding 364,100 & 364,756, just because somebody reported these as 17-jewel, that doesn't make them 17-jewel. I suspect that Sam got those numbers from the Columbus data that Ed and I gave to him a few years back (our report of 364,100 dates to 2000 and 364,756 dates to 1998) and we kept the original descriptions, not knowing any better at the time. Nowadays, we list these as 16-jewel with a note that 17-jewel was reported. However, Sam could have gotten them from the same sources as we did.

Anyway, "conventional" wisdom back then was that if an 18-size, full plate, American movement had an upper center jewel, it was a 17-jewel watch. Only a few people realized at that time that Columbus didn't catalog a 17-jewel Railway King until it became the New Columbus Watch Co. (around 1895 and with higher serial numbers and not having tu-tone damaskeening). Until 1895, all the Railway King movements in the catalogs and ads were described as being 16-jewel. Also, very few people pulled the dial and parts to check to see if it had a lower center jewel.

Greg Frauenhoff knows a bit about this, perhaps he'll add his thoughts.

 

[StanJS]

>> I must have missed seeing S/N 501,347. If you have a link to it, or an eBay number, I'd appreciate it.

Here it is: 200260338077

It went around twice with different high starting prices. I was hoping it would sell so it would give me a value for mine.

Understood about the 17J thing. That also crossed my mind.

Cheers,
Stan

 

[Kent]

Got it - Thanks

 

[Jerry Freedman]

Re: Columbus King/Railway King

I am sitting here looking at Railway King #230309. It has the blue choo-choo dial and two toned damascening. It is my understanding that all of these which are unmarked as to jewels are 16J. Regardless of the jewel count they are really beautiful watches.

Jerry Freedman

 

[Kent]

Re: Columbus King/Railway King

Hi Jerry:

Would that be a hunting (lever-set) or open-face (pendant-set) movement? Is the dial Arabic or Roman?

Thanks,

 

[Jerry Freedman]

Hunting case, lever set and Roman numerals.

Jerry Freedman

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Hunting Columbus King

 

[Kent]

Nice!

Thanks for posting it,

 

[ALB]

Open face Columbus King. Bad main spring

 

[Old rookie]

ALB, contact Dave Coatsworth he can probably make that mainspring issue disappear.

 

[luvsthetick]

I am fairly sure I have posted this watch before but thought I would post here in case it is not in the Columbus King 17-jewel data base Kent and Ed keep.

 

[Old rookie]

Wonderful watch! Congratulations.

 

[darrahg]

367419

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Kent,

Just wondering if the runs in the encyclopedia page that you created for the 16j and 17j Railway King and 17j Columbus King mvts is current or not.

Greg

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Below are some recent sightings from the internet. I haven't checked to see if any are already on Kent and Ed's list.

Railway King-Htg-16j (unless marked "17 Jewels" all that were seen are assumed to be 16 jewels)

179894
191979
192057
194253, 194395
220314
221066, 221069
224214, 224300
230465, 230485, 230578
245905, 245999
249708
284617, 284631
309106
345088, 345279
354261
364592

Railway King-OF-16j

192245
204732
215378
230834
231154
312805
313004, 313054
344484, 344564
349617
350001
356259
364431

Railway King-OF-17j

366875

Columbus King-Htg-17j

363020, 363620, 363664
367419
371079, 371261
372009, 372190, 372269

Columbus King-OF-17j

368885
370937

RWK Special-Htg-15j

252468
317601, 317610

RWK Special-OF-15j

254130
282207
340457

RWK Special-Htg-16j

284899

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

A novice lover of Columbus pocket watches , would like to know if a watch is engraved "New Columbus watch company" and the number is in the 200000 range is it a new number, or has it been carried on from the old company?

Allan

 

[Kent]

Kent,

Just wondering if the runs in the encyclopedia page that you created for the 16j and 17j Railway King and 17j Columbus King mvts is current or not.

Greg

If you check at the bottom of the Columbus Watch Co. Encyclopedia page, you'll see that it hasn't been updated in about 3-1/2 years.

Thanks for the serial numbers - about half were new to me.

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

A few more numbers:

Railway King-Htg-16j

179839
194349
224370
309051
349785

RWK Special-Htg-15j

252468, 252481
256546, 256619
283945
284178
317748

RWK Special-OF-15j

254431

RWK Special-Htg-16j

284499

 

[Kent]

A few more numbers:

Again, thanks!

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Thank you, Kent, for the information on Columbus watches, I have read all three, though I must read them over and over, so I have printed them out.

Thanks again,

Allan.

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

A novice lover of Columbus pocket watches , would like to know if a watch is engraved "New Columbus watch company" and the number is in the 200000 range is it a new number, or has it been carried on from the old company?

Allan

If it's marked "New Columbus" then it was finished after 1894 by the New company. Whether it was in process by the old company or started completely from scratch by the New one is an open question. Many makers started large blocks of mvts (as in assembling matching plates and bridges, jewelling them, etc., but without completing the engraving and damaskeening) which were set aside and finished as needed (for an example see the Bulletin article on Elgin's grade 274). It's possible that this is the case with your 200,000 range watch.

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

Hi Greg, you are quite right. Quote from "Part 2" "At first, the new company´s movements were a continuation of those made previously, some of which were described in Part 1". I will send you the details of the watch if I win the auction tomorrow. If I don´t I will send you a PM with the details.
If the above is correct, and I have no doubt it is, I would say it´s a King with 16 jewels.

Allan

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

The New Columbus Watch Company, watch I was looking at is sold. I did not buy it. S/N 283102 Adjusted, Safty Pinion, AWW-Co. coin silver case. No jewel numbers.

Allan.

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

For some reason our many informative encyclopedia pages don't get as much traffic as they deserve. So as a plug, here's Kent's Columbus article:

https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Encyclopedia-Subjects/American-Pocket-Watches/Columbus-Watch-Co

 

[Allan C. Purcell]

After reading the above, and Kent's research, I bought a private label Columbus watch for John P. Mill, Toronto. On seeing the top plate, I must admit I was a little disappointed, all that was on there was the S/N 163287 and "Safty Pinion" (See below) So I bid on the starting price and got it. Of course, the postage and import duties double that, but what the hell, it´s a Columbus, and it runs. I have asked the seller about the photograph, but no reply. I can only guess at the jewel count, 15? the date would be 1891, so before they re-organised in 1894. The case is not coined silver, it´s one of those Ore-Silver things that hide the word, Nickle. Nice dial though. Not too keen on these screw on´s back and front, but know how to work them from my Hampden.

Allan.

 

[thesnark17]

Yes, between the Breguet hairspring, the whip regulator, and the screwed-in jewel settings, this is a 15 jewel Columbus, and a better grade at that. I really like that chain-pattern damascening.

 

[Michael Post]

I have a Railway King, s18, 16j in a Michael Cronin 14k hunter case #9680 with both Crown and MHC monogram. Would that case have been supplied by the Columbus factory or is this an after market swap? Watch is an 1894 and it seems like the case was made much earlier. This is all new stuff for me.

 

[Kent]

I have a Railway King, s18, 16j ...

Michael:

Would you please share the serial number and a few more details?

Thanks,

 

[Michael Post]

Michael:

Would you please share the serial number and a few more details?

Thanks,

 

[Michael Post]

View attachment 724568 View attachment 724569 View attachment 724570 View attachment 724571 View attachment 724572

 

[Kent]

View attachment 724573

Very Nice, thanks for showing it!

 

[brg404]

Railway King OF/16 jewels Two-Tone Gothic Script "Columbus Watch Co" double sunk dial. Pendant set movement.
230916