Coil Gong: Can the sound be changed?

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by bipid44, Feb 6, 2011.

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  1. bipid44

    bipid44 Registered User

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    #1 bipid44, Feb 6, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2011
    I can't seem to find much on changing the sound of coil gong other than putting leather on the hammer that strikes the coil.

    Can the sound be made richer and deeper? Without knowing the technical words to describe the sound, it doesn't sound "pure" but sounds a little fuzzy.

    What would adding weight to the end of the coil do? And is there an easy way to do that?

    Would tempering the metal do anything? And how would that be done in my kitchen?

    The clock is an old Seth Adams mantel clock.

    Thanks for any suggestions.

    -Steve
     
  2. Neeth

    Neeth Registered User
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    I have tried to "soften" the gong sound. I don't know the terms for the sound either. I call it more of a "cymbal" type sound from a coil gong. I think everybody wants a sound like a big church bell, but to get that you need - a big church bell. You could try bending the hammer to hit the center flat area of the gong either a little bit closer or a little bit further away from the mount. I have tried leather on the hammer. That tends to soften the beginning note of the sound. You can also try felt. This will soften the beginning of the sound even more, but nothing I ever did changed that "cymbal" sound. The temper of the metal in the gong does affect the "purity" of the sound. A softer metal produces a "clunk" sound. There are people on this MB with more experience than I have and other advice will come along in a short time. I'll be watching the other answers, hoping to learn something new. Good luck in your quest for better sound from the gong.

    Ken W
     
  3. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User
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    Hi Steve and welcome,start from the back board and move forward..........is the backboard secure, is their a split behind the gong base,gong base secure,screw holding coil tight, distance between the hammer head and coil correct?
    I usuually take the coil off and use naval jelly, then 4x steel wool it til it is bright and shiny then run the above sequence sounds like lots of work but it usually gives a "little" better sound.
    Bruce
     
  4. harold bain

    harold bain Forums Administrator
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    Striking closer to the base, and with a proper gap at rest should get the optimum sound that the gong was designed for, if everything is tight. Leather tips are best on the hammer. Experiment with non-permanent changes til you get it to where you like it.
     
  5. bipid44

    bipid44 Registered User

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    Thanks for the info everyone.

    I've played around with the hammer, and am just now trying a little pad made from electrical tape. I checked the attachment of the coil but now I'll clean it.

    I was looking at more fundamental changes in the gong itself. Trying to take off a fuzzy edge to the sound. I read that filing will change the pitch but I don't like doing something I can't undo. (I really like Ctl-Z)

    In another thread someone wrote, "Everyone wants the sound of a big church bell, but to get that you need a big church bell."
     
  6. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Gongs are like bells. A cheap one sounds cheap. Good ones are expensive, but sound expensive. You get what you pay for. Lots of the cheap clocks used cheap gongs. The pricier clocks have nice sounding deep gongs. If the sound board is tight and the gong is secured tightly to it, it probably is what it is. :)
     
  7. Thyme

    Thyme Registered Users

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    True, the sound of various gongs will vary simply from the design and material of the gong itself. Some are very loud, some are not, some have overtones that can be less pleasing in sound, etc. If the gong is original to the clock it usually best to leave it as is. But if the clock came to you with no gong you could get an assortment of old gongs (e.g. on eBay) and use whichever one sounds best to you.

    You can vary the hardness or softness of the tone by changing the material of the hammer tip, but only to a certain extent. Usually leather is best and the leather should be relatively soft and pliable, not hard and dried out.
     
  8. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    bipi,

    Yes, first neck down the point where the gong attaches to the iron. Next, increase the isolation of the iron from the backboard; a few steel washers might be all that is necessary. Lastly, carefully and slowly trim the end of the gong to try and get rid of any ill sounding harmonics.

    I wouldn't go very far with any of this unless the gong has been replaced already.

    Willie X
     
  9. gvasale

    gvasale Registered User
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    find a Seth Thomas cathedral gong. In most American clocks, they're about the best. Rusted and abused gongs can sound like crap.
     
  10. hikernick

    hikernick Registered User

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    In my experience the thing that makes the most difference to gong sound is tightness of all the attachment points. Then the hammer should fall onto the gong, and immediately bounce back so the gong vibrates without any contact with the hammer. After that, it's down to the characteristics of the gong, and what materials it passes through to generate resonance.
     
  11. John P

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    Steve, yes it can be changed. I have spent many hours experimenting with gongs, chime rods and bells. Most old mantle clocks sound like someone threw a brickbat at a trash can.
    First thing to do is work on the sound board(bottom of clock) It must be fastenten properly, 4 old rusty loose nails with split holes will NOT do. If its split, replace it with a Birch or furr panel 1/4 in. thick.(same wood used to make guitars) Fasten with 3 brass screws on each end and small nails on the sides if possible. Spray paint flat black. Next, work on the gong itself. clean and oil the sprial. It must be tight on sound board. Then the hammer, leather works best for a soft pleasant tone but the nylon tips from hermle chimes works well too. Drill and dig out the old hard leather, most of the time the hole looks threaded and you can screw in a new piece (Timesaves has the part) Trim off all but about 3/16. Sometimes it is nessasary to chew it in your mouth a min or two. After you get the leather piece in, pound it on the table a few times to flatten it out. Hammer needs to strike the gong at about 1/2 in. from where it is fastened to the post. I like the adjustable hammers with a screw to allow movement. Adjust lift to one hammer height (this controls volume) keep it low, and a square strike on the coil. Next thing to do is to set the pitch. I use a guitar tuner placed inside the clock. You are lookin for 440 vibrations on the tuner. I do this by nipping the end off the coil. They are hard but will cut with good pair of wire cutters. You are going to have to go down the pitch scale since you cannot lenthen the coil, and you must sneak up on it by cutting small pieces off and rechecking. When you reach it, its almost magical and will produce a rich mellow perfect pitch sound that you will hear for years to come and each time it strikes a rewarding sense of acomplishment. It aint easy and I did all this just for me but since you asked, here it is.
    Good luck
    John
     
  12. John P

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    #12 John P, Feb 7, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2011
    Things i forgot to mention.
    1. Gong must be tight in post
    2. Hammer must contact gong on the rebound or after it stops and bends down on its on
    3. Clocks with gongs need a heavy hammer
    4. Tech. must have lots of patience
    5. Sound board needs to be 3/8 thick.
     
  13. Thyme

    Thyme Registered Users

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    This makes no sense at all. A gong can be of any pitch and it has nothing to do with the tonal quality of the sound produced. Not all gongs are tuned to a 440 cps "A". Why should they be? So what has your recommendation of using a tuner got to do with it? Nothing. Unless you want all your clocks to sound a perfect "A" - which is why you are cutting them down to achieve that peculiar goal. There is nothing magical about a 440 "A", or a 442 "A", or any other pitch. It doesn't matter what the pitch (or note) is that is produced because there is no other pitch or note for it to relate to. This is not a chime clock where the notes produced need to be in tune with other notes being sounded. It's not a problem considering that the clocks in this discussion have only one gong.
     
  14. Dave B

    Dave B Registered User

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    I do not strive for any specific pitch of the gong, but more for a clean, resonant sound. Sometimes, they seem particularly harsh or "clangy". I have found that can be improved (reduced) by damping them slightly by placing a piece of painter's tape on them. With some gongs, the tape wants to be at the very tip, on the inside coil, but on some others, it needs to be very close to where the hammer strikes. I have a thirty hour ogee with a cast iron bell, and solid lead hammer. I improved it by wrapping the hammer with a piece of leather.

    Occasionally, I have tuned chiming clocks by the same method. A little tape judiciously placed, can change the pitch of a tubular chime, or a chime rod, to make it sound the proper interval from the others. Here again, though, I do not worry about specific pitch. I am only interested in having the relative pitches be correct.
     
  15. John P

    John P Registered User
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    Thyme, It does make sense. Look at it this way A guitar has 6 strings all tuned to a 440, yet you have 6 different notes. Clock gongs are all different from one make to the other and sound different. BUT, if you tune that perticilar gong to 440 it will produce its purest sound. The coils are not tuned in the factory as chime rods are but we can tune them using this method.
     
  16. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    OK - I'm a guitarist and mine are not tuned that way - unless I'm missing what you mean by 440. Perhaps you could explain it a bit more?
     
  17. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Hi
    I thought I'd add that where along the length one
    strikes it has an effect on the harmonics at the
    beginning. Usually, higher harmonics will die off
    towards the end of the sound, leaving the fundamental
    frequency. A change in 1/8 inch of where the hammer
    strikes can make a difference in the sound.
    For coil types, one does need to make sure that,
    as has been mentioned, the hammer does not
    stop too close to the coil wire or it will buzz and
    sound bad. The coil must be mounted such that it
    doesn't touch the case while vibrating.
    Unlike a bell that has several different modes of
    oscillation, the coils and tubes tend to have just
    one fundamental frequency.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  18. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Yep,

    Doesn't matter what pitch, as long as you get a tone without any bad sounding harmonics. I think this is called harmonic distortion or blocking distortions. In plain talk, 'warbling' sounds.

    Willie X
     
  19. Thyme

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    I don't know of anyone who would tune all six strings of a guitar to a 440 A, or why anyone would want to do that. :confused:

    No, you wouldn't have "6 different notes" - you would have the same note sounded on six different strings. (Besides which, you might risk wrecking a guitar with that sort of inappropriate tension on all its strings.)

    But what does this have to do with clock gongs? You seem to think that only a gong that has been altered to produce a 440 A will "produce its purest sound". So you are saying that a gong sounding anything other than 440 CPS is impure?

    Is this recommendation you made for the surgical shortening of gongs based upon some weird rite of purification? :rolleyes:
     
  20. Neeth

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    Perhaps I misinterpreted the method of tuning to 440. In the past have I have attempted to play the banjo, and to use the 440 pitch you have to develop an ear and tune all the strings to different notes that harmonize with the 440 pitch. That was what I thought the reply advising the 440 pitch meant. I don't try to "tune" the gong to a piano, but I do try to get a pleasant sound. The comment about a rusty gong is a good point. A friend has an Ansonia with a rusty and pitted gong that the best note that can be gotten is a very flat "clunk".

    Ken W
     
  21. NECCnut

    NECCnut Registered User

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    I think mass has a lot to do with the perceived quality of the sound. Some of the cheaper gongs, even on antique clocks, have thin wire gong material but a heavy base. Better gongs have heavier metal coils and an even heavier weight, sometimes weight and the gong base. I believe all this contributes to the sound quality.
     
  22. Thyme

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    #22 Thyme, Feb 8, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2011
    Tuning a single pitch instrument such as a gong (that is not playing or sounded with any other instruments) to conform to a standard of pitch is totally irrelevant. It serves no purpose, whatsoever. It doesn't matter what the pitch is. Achieving a "pleasant sound" has nothing to do with pitch (frequency).

    You mentioned harmony, and you are correct. Harmony (or dissonance) can only have relevance in the sounding of more than one note. As you mentioned (as with a banjo or a guitar) a musical instrument must be in tune with itself and the other notes it generates, hence the need for tuning it. An even more relevant example would be that of a piano, playing in a concert with an orchestra. In most cases an orchestra tunes to the oboe. The "A" the oboe sounds and that the orchestra tunes to is often NOT a 440 "A". (Modern orchestras often prefer and use a sharper "A", more like 442 CPS or more, because it supposedly gives a 'brighter' sound.) It's entirely a matter of preference, and it has nothing to do with "impurity".

    When there is a piano involved however, the orchestra must tune to the piano - for the simple reason that all the other instruments can easily retune themselves, but the piano cannot. If the piano is tuned to a 440 A, that will be the standard observed. Not because it will sound any better than it would if it were 443 (or whatever) but simply because there needs to be a harmonic standard that everyone else will tune to.

    If there were only ONE note being sounded by one sole sound generator and no other sound generator is involved (such as a clock gong), there would be no need for any standard or for doing any tuning. But neither would the sounding of one single note be considered music. And that is why a clock gong need not be tuned to any particular pitch or frequency.
     
  23. John P

    John P Registered User
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    I called my grandaughter last night to un-fuddle my memory and she reminded me that it was the A note or 1st A above middle c that was the closest one to my gong sound. Nipping the wire end brought it right to 440 Mz. and a cleaner tone was achieved.

    Sorry about the confusion but IM old and senility is unfortunaly setting in.
    I have learned a lot by reading all this.

    john
     
  24. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Ahhh. No problem :) One thing that should be mentioned in support of what has been said is that in some cases, the case itself will have a set frequency inherent to it's construction. Like a champagne glass. If you can find and match that frequency you're going to set off some nice harmonic sounds. This would be much more likely in a metal case with thin construction.
     
  25. berntd

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    Hello all,

    After my Gustac Becker gong spiral experience (see thread), I can safely say that if the spiral in itself sounds bad, there is no real way to fix it.

    I tried everything, short of rehardening the wire.

    I have a feeling htat something happens to the wire over time. The steel was probably a poor qulity to begin with.

    It had 2 spirals and both were the same.

    They sounded the same, in the clock and on a piece of external board for testing.

    Dunno.

    Luckily, the owner was just soo happy that his clock finally had a movement and was working :D

    Kind regards
    Bernt
     
  26. Jay Fortner

    Jay Fortner Registered User
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    Steve, I worked on a korean wall clock here a while back and it to had a strange fuzzy sound. Turned out to be a loose hinge pin in the door. When the clock strikes it resonates throughout the whole clock,anything that is loose will shake and rattle. The door glass on an Emporer Grandmother clock bout drove it's owner nuts till I put some dabs of hot glue over the glazing pins. Another trick that I have thought of but not done yet is to dip the end of the hammer in Plasti-Dip. You know,the stuff that you dip tool handles into.
     
  27. Dave B

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    I have an LF and WW Carter that sounds like a cross between the coming of the apocalypse and garbage men throwing lids around. :eek:Over the years, I have tried all sorts of tricks to change the timbre, with a rather notable lack of success. About five years ago, I finally said, "Enough of this nonsense; learn to live wit' it, Mon!" Now, I never even hear it, except when I forget to wind it and it does not go clangdebang in the night. THEN it wakes me up. :D
     
  28. Thyme

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    Gongs and bells have this in common: their construction affects the overtones produced and the fundamental way they sound.

    I've got one like the one you mentioned. It's a Smiths clock that my wife has on her dresser in our bedroom. It's a very small clock with a short drop and the gong is just very tangy sounding, with the overtones it produces lasting rather longish, several seconds after the strike. I've literally had nightmarish auditory hallucinations some nights when that gong sounds. (There are four other striking clocks in our bedroom: 1 bim-bam rod chimer, 1 strikes on a bell, another is a cathedral gong and another is a soft, single strike, chime rod type.)

    But the only one that ever disturbs my dreams any is that nasty little &%**@## Smiths gong...:mad:
     
  29. harold bain

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    Thyme, I know I could never get away with any striking clocks in the bedroom. My wife complained that the tick from a 400 day clock on my dresser was too loud:rolleyes::eek:
     
  30. NECCnut

    NECCnut Registered User

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    What? I can't even hear those unless I take the glass off and put my head right up to the clock.

     
  31. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Harold must have married a much younger woman :D
     
  32. harold bain

    harold bain Forums Administrator
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    Yep, 4 years younger:eek:. But much better hearing than I have (too many loud rock concerts:rolleyes:).
     
  33. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Yeah, I 'hear' your pain. In my case, I was the guy standing in front of the speaker doing Jimi Hendrix feed back licks :D
     
  34. Bill Ward

    Bill Ward Registered User
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    Hmm, isn't Thyme a musician too? Anyway, he's right about tuning. The pitch would probably only be noticeable to someone with absolute perfect pitch, i.e. with the ability to identify exactly the pitch of a tone. (I used to know a musician who bought a special turntable which provided for adjustable pitch playing because it drove him crazy that the music on LP records frequently was slightly speeded up or slowed down to match the track timings with the available recording time per side.)
    Anything rattling in the clock can be annoying; often, it's the fly.
    All the mechanical connections from the gong to the case frame must be firm, or they'll rattle. Any rattle or resonance sucks energy at that frequency from the gong, making for a ragged sound.
    The harder the hammer the more overtones it produces (the large area a soft hammer touches on the gong damps out some higher overtones.) Higher overtones are what makes the gong sound tinny. Leather can be softened with neatsfoot oil, available from cobblers (i.e. shoe repairmen, not incompetent horologists!) You might try a plug of felt. Plastic hammers are usually harder, but a plug of silicone rubber or sealant might be an improvement.
    Where the hammer strikes, and at what angle (i.e. in the plane of the gong, or perpendicular to it), has a big effect on the harmonic complement.
    Thinning the taper where the gong inserts into the base is one way to lower the pitch, but again, to what end? It's also a very good way to break off the base! Rust does have an unpleasant effect, but again, it's dangerous to clean it off mechanically. Perhaps this would be a good application for electrochemical rust removal- at least the metal wouldn't be lost, though it would be soft on the surface.
     
  35. Thyme

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    Yes, I have two degrees in music and you are right about perfect pitch. Very few musicians have it, however, and accordingly I doubt that non-musicians have perfect pitch. (BTW, having perfect pitch does not necessarily make you a better musician than one who only has relative pitch.)

    I wouldn't say it is dangerous to remove rust. Usually a rotary wire brush wheel mounted on a lathe does the job nicely. You do need to hold onto the part being cleaned firmly while in contact with the wire wheel however, so as not to have the part become an unintended projectile. :0:
     
  36. shutterbug

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    I've known a few people with perfect pitch. All of them could distinguish an A when they heard it, for example. But I never met one who could identify whether a note was perfectly exact. For instance, you couldn't rely on one of them for tuning your guitar without a reference point to hear. Still need a tuner :)
     
  37. Bruce Barnes

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    Clean rust?,just use naval jelly and steel wool one,twice even thrice and re attach !! You wont get it all as there is ALWAYS pitting but the end result is worth the little effort.
    Bruce
     
  38. chimeclockfan

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    Make sure there aren't puny cracks in the gong. Sometimes, coil gongs tend to develop unseen cracks that mess up the tone.

    Many striking coil gongs aren't tuned to an exact note, unlike chime bars. There are tuned coil gongs, but usually in Westminster chime clocks.

    I must say, a larger rectangle wire coil gong (liked used in older longcase clocks) is going to sound better than a thin wire coil gong. Many of these USA clocks used a thin wire coil gong (sometimes a thicker one), and these tend to be random, it terms of sound. Some sound okay, others sound very dull.

    Here's an example of one of the best sounding coil gong strikes I've heard. This uses twin coil gongs using thicker wires for the coils.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thN8-ArjmeQ
     
  39. Thyme

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    That's not perfect pitch; that's having a sense of "relative pitch". Relative pitch can be developed over years of practice, usually related to one particular note. For me, trained as a violinist, I could reproduce a 440 "A" at any time from my auditory memory- (in my performing years, even if you awoke me in the middle of the night I could automatically do this accurately), because all violinists tune to an "A" of 440 or so, and that's the first thing they must do to tune their instrument (quickly and with facility, I might add) before they begin playing anything. But for me to identify any other pitch in any other octave quickly, I needed to refer back mentally to that internal reference point first. This process is called "relative pitch" and most professional musicians develop it over time and through practice.

    However, having a sense of absolute or "perfect pitch" is quite different, and very uncommon, even among professional musicians. Those rare few can name ANY note immediately upon hearing it, spontaneously, in any octave without thinking about it. I suspect it is peculiar to those precious few who have extensive pianistic training and are gifted and capable of doing this. However, this rare ability does have a downside. If any note is slightly off pitch from the regulated tuning standard, it bothers them tremendously.

    For more on the topic, click here.
     
  40. harold bain

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    One of the best sounding spirial gongs I have is about 1/8 inch thick. It's in a large Vienna regulator. I suspect the case has as much to do with the sound as the gong. It's not particularly loud, but to my ears, it's a nice clean resonating sound.
     
  41. shutterbug

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    No, the ones I referred to could tell you any note you played. But still, couldn't tell if an 'E' was an exact E or just close.
     
  42. NECCnut

    NECCnut Registered User

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    That's what I was saying earlier--the thin wire gongs sounds "tinny" and the thicker wire gongs sounds deeper and fuller--it's all a question of mass. The greater the mass, the deeper, and potentially better, the tone.

     
  43. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Talking about removing rust, nobody has mentioned electrolysis. Simple, effective, and absolutely non-destructive. There's a whole slug of threads on the topic, from a year or so back.

    bangster
     
  44. Dave B

    Dave B Registered User

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    The only person whom I ever met who had perfect pitch COULD tell if a given note was exact, sharp or flat, and by how much.
     
  45. Thyme

    Thyme Registered Users

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    That illustrates the difference. Those of us with relative pitch can do what you described.

    When testing for absolute pitch the person who has it is never wrong in identifying the note, no matter what octave it is in.
     
  46. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    #46 chimeclockfan, Feb 10, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
    My views.

    I also remember a coil going mounted on a larger block (like the Kaiser gong) will sound better than one that's directly mounted to the case (like a cuckoo clock gong). Better resonance, too. It is good to ensure the gong block is screwed tightly to the case as well.

    On the subject of musical pitch, non tuned coil gongs never produce one particular musical tone. The tuned ones do. Compare these two clocks.

    Westminster on tuned coil gongs

    Hour strike on non tuned coil gong

    These American clocks were never built with coil gongs like these in general. IMHO, these T/S American clocks never sound alike. Some have very loud high pitched gongs, others sound more akin to beating a frying pan against a pillow.

    It's probably all been pointed out already, but it's worth pointing out again, since some others don't seem to get it.
     
  47. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Re: My views.

    Well, depending on how you mean that. :)

    All gongs produce a note (tone). The tuned ones are tuned together so that they can produce harmonious sounds, but even then there is great variance between clocks (different keys, for instance).
     
  48. chimeclockfan

    chimeclockfan Registered User
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    #48 chimeclockfan, Feb 10, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
    Re: My views.

    What I say is what I mean. While I see that all gongs do produce a note or some sort... the tuned (Westminster, et al) coil gongs have a much more dominant musical pitch to my musical ears, than the non tuned coil gongs.

    The non tuned coiled 'wire' gong has many random harmonic tones so it becomes more difficult to decide which is the 'main' pitch. On the flat wire Westminster gongs, you can clearly hear what note is being played (E D C G).

    Regardless, most striking clocks don't have the coil gong tuned to a particular note, unlike the tuned Westminster sets. I have seen a video of a New Haven clock with Westminster on the same gongs used in the T/S clocks in the past... very unharmonious compared to the W&H I linked above.
     
  49. Thyme

    Thyme Registered Users

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    #49 Thyme, Feb 10, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2011
    Re: My views.


    Waaait a minute. :)
    Westminster clocks have chime rods, not gongs.

    Am I missing something here? Or are chime rods being confused with coil gongs? :confused:

    No. Chime rods are not gongs. They are neither flat, not are they wire. Chime rods are usually used to sound more than one note (except for those few clocks that have only ONE chime rod, as some actually DO). The sounding of more than one tone is part of the definition of what music is. Simply put, by most definitions, sounding one note (or tone) alone, by itself, is not considered music. And even if you did consider it "music", tuning would not matter at all- because there would be no other pitch for it to be related to (or compared to).

    Rods need to be tuned relative to each other, for the tune they produce is musical. One note (or pitch or tone - call it whatever you wish) need not be in tune with anything at all, because it is free standing. But once there are two notes involved it requires that they be tuned, due to the way they relate to each other. Then tuning matters, a LOT! Harmony cannot exist or be possible if there is only one note present.

    Gongs and chime rods are not the same. Please don't confuse them.

    You are mostly correct here, but you are expecting the two to be the same and they aren't. On a gong, as with a bell, there is still always a fundamental tone produced, plus many overtones. Whether they sound pleasant to the ear or not depends upon the construction of the bell or the gong. Chime rods are more refined as sound generators than gongs are. Thus you have a harder time hearing the fundamental tone of a gong than you do with a chime rod. Crappy gong (or bell) = crappy sound. This has nothing to do with tuning. You are correct in your realization that a gong is a more crude sound generator than a chime rod. But comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges. :rolleyes:
     
  50. harold bain

    harold bain Forums Administrator
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    Thyme, Westminster chime on coiled gongs, in a New Haven chime clock with Willcock chimes:
    [​IMG]
    Not uncommon, and often in a very good quality clock, such as Elliott.
    This one has a very good sound for what is basically a black enamel wooden case.
     
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