Coachwatch - Joseph Spiegel Friedberg - missing parts ...

Halda Sweden

Registered User
Dec 30, 2008
164
95
28
South Sweden
Country
Hello Horological friends!

A coachwatch signed "Miroir London" was bought a few years ago in a broken condition.
The watchmaker was probably Joseph Spiegel from Friedberg, who died around 1760.

It's a rather complex watch with many parts. Movement with verge escapement, hour- and quarter strike, date, alarm and repetition.

The coach watch is under repair. Everything is complete except the repetition (parts are missing).
Check these pictures. The blue marked area is where the missing parts should have been.

If anyone has access to detailed images that show a similar repeating function, that would be great!

Best rgds
Peter B.

View attachment 608142 View attachment 608143

P1230380 - kopia - kopia (2).JPG P1230382 - kopia - kopia.JPG
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Allan C. Purcell

eri231

Registered User
Jan 13, 2012
1,596
490
83
torino italy
Country
Region
from the book " Friedberg uhren" Riolini Unger

Joseph Spiegel
“Spiegel Joseph, watchmaking apprentice by profession and native of Arnach in county Wolfsegg, Swabia, applied for citizenship of Friedberg on June 9, 1736. Spiegel’s wife Anna is mentioned when their son Johann Sebastian is born in 1737. The watchmaker Sebastian Petz was the child’s godfather. At his wedding on July 9, 1736, Joseph Spiegel was registered as watchmaker from Arnach near Memmingen, Anna Moell (probably Mahl) is listed as his bride. Witnesses were watchmakers Johannes Heckel, Conradus Heckel and Jacobus Strixner from Friedberg. Joseph Spiegel never signed his watches with his name but with his name Spiegel spelt backwards “Legeips”, or with the French translation “Mirroir”. Locations mentioned are Augsburg, London and Paris. Except for one hexagonal table clock, only carriage clocks are so far known to have been made by Spiegel"

IMG_2933.JPG
 
  • Like
Reactions: PatH

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
12,515
2,148
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Peter,

Once again, your pictures are too small to make out much of the detail.

By the way, could you give an indication of the size of this watch please? I've always thought of coach watches as being quite large, around 100mm in diameter, whereas clock-watches were more of a size to fit in a pocket, albeit a substantial one.

In terms of what's missing from the two posts you've highlighted, I think Doug Shuman, (dshumans), would be a good person to ask.

Regards,

Graham
 

Halda Sweden

Registered User
Dec 30, 2008
164
95
28
South Sweden
Country
Dear Graham,

yes I have some problem publishing large photos. I try once more...

It´s a large coach watch. The outer case, there is two, is approx. 100 mm.
The outer case has some kind of skin (shark skin?). The inner case is made of silver...


What we need is a picture that shows missing parts. The quarterstrike mecanism is ok and so is the alarmfunction and calender. It´s the repetition mecanism that is incomplete. We believe that some of the missing parts was connected to the axles marked with red colour. When we know how the parts looks like we try to make new ones..

I try to ask Doug Shuman as you recommend...:)

Best rgds
Peter

P1230380 - kopia - kopia (3).JPG P1230382 - kopia (2).JPG P1230811.JPG
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Bryan Eyring

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
12,515
2,148
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Peter,

Of the four visible hammers, the two which I assume are for the repeater are the ones next to the two 'empty' posts. The arbors of these two hammers in most early repeaters have collets driven by the hour and quarter racks, mounted on the dial side of the pillar plate, but can you confirm that these are both driven by the racks between the plates via their tails? The posts in question must presumably carry some sort of detent which provides for the hours to strike before letting the quarters sound. Does any part of the repeater sequence actually work or is it entirely silent?

Regards,

Graham
 

Halda Sweden

Registered User
Dec 30, 2008
164
95
28
South Sweden
Country
Dear Graham,

I have to discuss this with my watchmaker later. I send him some of these photos and hopefully it will make it easier to explain the different hammers function...

The photograph with red notes and number 1-4 was taken when the movement was dismantled and the other ones was mostly from after cleaning.

I have marked the empty shoulders with red in the third picture


Best regards
Peter B.:)

P1270258.JPG P1260497.JPG P1270112 - kopia.JPG P1270113 - kopia.JPG P1270124 - kopia.JPG P1270130 - kopia.JPG P1270132 - kopia.JPG
 
Last edited:

Halda Sweden

Registered User
Dec 30, 2008
164
95
28
South Sweden
Country
It´s a hard to explain the technical part....

Let´s start with the hammers:

The "hammers" function is this:

No 1= Alarm
No 2= Quarter strike (smal hammer)
No 3= Quarter strike (large hammer)
No 4= Hour strike (large hammer)

Rgds
Peter

P1270124 - kopia.JPG
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
12,515
2,148
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Peter,

Thanks, that explains why hammers 2 and 3 are both driven by the same rack wheel, I guess they strike one after the other and not quite simultaneously. The numbers of teeth on those wheels was puzzling me, until I remembered that this uses racks on the other side of this plate to control the number of strikes. Now, do you have any good pictures of those racks and other levers, like this, but larger?

Regards,

Graham
 

dshumans

NAWCC Member
Sep 17, 2009
441
62
28
Here is a picture of a 1720-1730 Freidberg half-quarter repeater that is about 65mm diameter. It operates with a push-down pendant and is very unlike your watch. Your watch looks more like a petit sonnerie with with alarm. Does the big curved rack wind a spring for the repeater when the pendant is depressed, or is it driven by a pinion turning when the strike is driven by a manually wound strike mainspring?
Also, I have an article about a very early Freidberg minute repeater, possibly 1720, with pictures that may help, but it s very different from your watch also. If you want more pictures of my watch or the article, contact me at dshumans@gmail.com.
Regards,
Doug Shuman

IMG_7562a.jpg
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
12,515
2,148
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Peter,

Another question has occurred to me; how is the repeater function initiated? Since the initiation process doesn't need to wind any springs, is there a plunger or slide somewhere in the case?

Regards,

Graham
 

Halda Sweden

Registered User
Dec 30, 2008
164
95
28
South Sweden
Country
Dear Graham and Doug,

I am very satisfied that both of you take your time to try to help me with the missing parts..:)

Sorry but this post was posted before reading the new posts above....:oops:

It´s a bit difficult for me to explain the technical bit because the watch is at my friend K-O, one of the best watchrepairers I know of. He is living in another town and we discussed the different fuctions by phone tonight. He isn´t so familiar with computers, so there is a risk for some misunderstanding...

K-O says that this watch has (or had..) a very special construction for the repeatingmecanism. The thread which trigged the alarm, wasn´t connected to a drumlike wheel as some other of these repeating coach watches had.

He guessed that one of the empty arbors most probably had a mechanism for repeating hours and the other arbor dealed with the quarters.

At the moment this watch self strike like this:

- Full hour (1-12 strikes)
- Ting (first quarter)
- Ting Tang (second quarter)
- Ting Tang Ting (third quarter)

The self strike function is working correct.

The construction regarding the repeating work is a bit hard to find out. It starts with the missing cord/thread, (there was no repeatingfunction from pendant) and when you pulled it, it should activate the repeating mecanism. But how?

Here is a lot of pictures of various quality taken from the dial side of the movement. It´s a mix from different ocassions..(dismantling, cleaning, assembling etc. Some where published before but here is a concentration of all of them).

If you doubbelclick on each picture the size will expand...

:)
Best rgds
Peter

P1230414.JPG P1270358.JPG P1270359.JPG P1270489.JPG P1270490.JPG P1230417.JPG P1230415.JPG P1230418.JPG P1230421.JPG P1230423.JPG P1230451.JPG P1270116.JPG P1270117.JPG P1230431.JPG P1270115.JPG
 
Last edited:

dshumans

NAWCC Member
Sep 17, 2009
441
62
28
It's a grande sonnerie which will self strike the hours and quarters, like a grandfather clock. There are 2 mainsprings, both with a 4 turn stop. One runs the sonnerie and one runs the time. Usually, the sonnerie is run by a turning dog (#2) which runs the bell chimes while counting down the hours until it is stopped by the hour rack (#3). The hour rack falls on the hour snail, and therefore the hour stop lever (#1) determines how many teeth the turning dog will count before being stopped. The sonnerie is activated when a lever falls off the 4 lobed cam pictured under the quarter snail which lifts the hour stop lever (#1) so the hour rack can fall and let the turn dog turn. The repeater is usually activated by a string that lifts the hour stop lever (#1) off the hour rack (#3) so the sonnerie runs on demand.

sonnerie.jpg
I believe that any missing parts will have to be made from scratch.
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
12,515
2,148
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Peter,

A picture that shows the missing parts connected to the repetition would bee of great value
Yes, that's what we're struggling with, and attempting to understand the parts which are there in order to arrive at the missing parts.

Regards,

Graham
 

dshumans

NAWCC Member
Sep 17, 2009
441
62
28
So 4 mainsprings... maybe time, sonneire, alarm, repeater? This still means that the 1730 Friedburg repeater parts pictured are no help because the repeater is a trip repeater with its own mainspring.
 

Halda Sweden

Registered User
Dec 30, 2008
164
95
28
South Sweden
Country
So 4 mainsprings... maybe time, sonneire, alarm, repeater? This still means that the 1730 Friedburg repeater parts pictured are no help because the repeater is a trip repeater with its own mainspring.
Hello Horological friends!

I don´t have the coach watch in front of me but I beleive the function is like this according to the engraved letters on the inner silvercase.

1. "G" = Gang (escapement)
2. "W" = Wecker (alarm)
3. "V" = Viertel (quarter)
4. "S" = Stunden (hours)

I am so grateful to all of you trying to help me to find out how the missing parts looked like!:):)

Best regards from Sweden
Peter B.

P1270293 - kopia (2).JPG
 

dshumans

NAWCC Member
Sep 17, 2009
441
62
28
Yes, now 4 mainsprings make sense because the hours strike has a different train from the quarters strike. That would permit both grande and petit sonnerie functions, because the quarters can strike without the hours when set to petit sonnerie mode, or with the hours in grande sonnerie mode.
 

zedric

NAWCC Member
Aug 8, 2012
1,592
280
83
Country
Region
It seems that there is another version of this watch for sale in France, Same maker but this time with a signature for Paris. Might help to see what you are missing. Unfortunately as the auction is live I can’t post a link.
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
12,515
2,148
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Peter,

There are a couple of watches in the British Museum which you might find interesting, one by Josef Spiegel and one by Thomas Mudge.

Regards,

Graham
 

Halda Sweden

Registered User
Dec 30, 2008
164
95
28
South Sweden
Country
Hi Graham,

yes these watches are very interesting but I am afraid there is no clue there. According to my watchmaker there isn´t space enough under the dial for such parts.

We are stil groping in the dark...but hopefully there is a solution somewehere. .

Best regards
Peter B. :)
 

Halda Sweden

Registered User
Dec 30, 2008
164
95
28
South Sweden
Country
Dear Horological Friends,

Yesterday I visited my friend who do advanced repairs on horological objects. The Joseph Spiegel coach watch is still on his bench. Everything is working except the repeating mechanism and we are still confused regarding how the missing parts looked like when it was complete.

A photo on the repeating mechanism under the dial on a complete similar pocket watch is what we need or instructions how the parts looked like.

Meanwhile my friend has started to repair the hour hand which is soon complete again.

If anyone could provide us with any clue it would bee of great help!


Best rgds
Peter B.

20210510_173842.jpg 20210510_174022.jpg
 

Forum statistics

Threads
166,190
Messages
1,447,853
Members
86,722
Latest member
VinSer
Encyclopedia Pages
1,101
Total wiki contributions
2,882
Last edit
E. Howard & Co. by Clint Geller