Clutch

Paul Statham

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Oct 22, 2020
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Hi all wondering if someone can help me clock i am working on, IMG_20210531_132705372_HDR.jpg clutch A in photo is catching on wheel B i need to bush C could that have anything to do with the clutch hitting the wheel or is it something to do with the clutch itself, thanks in advance
 

Mike Phelan

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As the pin isn't in properly on the arbor, it could mean that if "A" was tensioned a wee bit more and the pin fitted correctly so "A" doesn't project out quite as far, it might al be OK.
 
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dickstorer

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wheel b should be under wheel a. if it will not fit under a then perhaps wheel b is not a time wheel. maybe it should be in chime train
 

Dave T

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wheel b should be under wheel a. if it will not fit under a then perhaps wheel b is not a time wheel. maybe it should be in chime train
Interesting point. The pinion on wheel B makes no contact with any adjacent gear. Maybe we need to see the full train assembly. What kind of clock is this?
 

Willie X

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Yes, but only if the bushing is badly worn. Worn enough to get the wheel 'out of plane' with the plate. Willie X
 

Paul Statham

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Hi again just replying to what type of clock it is Perivale 3 train movement Westminster chime
 

Simon Holt

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Wheel B is upside down in your picture, as disciple_dan suggested. Here's a photo of one I worked on:

2017-08-20 11.05.10.jpg

Simon
 
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shutterbug

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Wheel A won't interfere. No need to take it apart. Just turn B over.
 

Willie X

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If you turn "B" over it will be in the same space as the barrel ...

I'm with DS,. Wheel "B" has to go where it is and under wheel "A".

On the center shaft, some clocks have a spacer/washer between the wheel and the pinion (for smoother clutch action). I'm guessing this clock once had that washer and now it's missing. :(

Willie X
 

Paul Statham

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If you turn "B" over it will be in the same space as the barrel ...

I'm with DS,. Wheel "B" has to go where it is and under wheel "A".

On the center shaft, some clocks have a spacer/washer between the wheel and the pinion (for smoother clutch action). I'm guessing this clock once had that washer and now it's missing. :(

Willie X
Thanks Willie i think i have that washer you are talking about this is my first 3 train movement and normally i take photo's but when i took the plate's apart the wheels just fell off :rolleyes:
 

Simon Holt

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If you put the chime spring barrel back in place, I think it will be obvious how it engages with that wheel.

Simon
 

Paul Statham

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Hi Simon must have heard what you were thinking, and i have put the trains back were i think they should go and the clutch is still hitting the wheel B i even took off the clutch and put wheel A above wheel B and that dosen't work IMG_20210602_101425651_HDR.jpg
 

Paul Statham

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In the Photo the first wheel in the time train is in the wrong position which i have now corrected thanks.
 

Dave T

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If you compare your picture to Simon's above you can see the proper order of the train. Start from the bottom with the spring barrel and work your way up.

Or, start at the top with the fly. Turn it over and then work your way down to the spring barrel.
 
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Simon Holt

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Your spring barrel may be the wrong way up, if you compare it to my picture. In my picture, the barrel cap is uppermost.

Simon.

Edit: Just to clarify: if your movement is the same as mine, the chime barrel is 'backwards' compared to the other two. In other words, the square end of the winding arbor projects through the barrel, not through the barrel cap. That can make spring removal and refitting a challenge, unless you either do it by hand or, if using a spring winder, have a spare winding arbor that has a backwards-pointing pin to catch the inner spring hole.
 
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shutterbug

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I'm looking at the fly's and they both will be the same direction as shown. So if the pinions and gears match up all the way down through the train, we either have to accept that the issue is as stated, or both trains are turned upside down.
So, back to the problem .... is it the pin that's hitting, or the spring itself?
The strike and chime second wheels look very similar. Any chance they got reversed?
It would be helpful to see the levers in place. Especially the one that interacts with that cam on the chime side.
 

Mike Phelan

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FWIW, I think both flies are correct as the chime fly is usually larger that its striking counterpart.

There's a possibility that the entire chiming train is back-to-front as if the extended arbors in the second wheel are identical, as the back one will be for the wheel on the back plate to drive the chime barrel, and the front one's for the count wheel.

Food for thought ...
 

Willie X

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Paul,

Try putting together one complete train at a time, including the barrel. If the train will run and all the associated pins and levers will work, that has to be the correct parts placement.

The flys and the wheels that drive them can be tricky. In many clocks they will interchange but not function properly. The only good solution for this is to permanently mark the fly and the next wheel down before disassembly. Mark either the strike or the chime, no need to mark both. While you're at it, mark the time barrel too. You only need to mark the time.

Keep at it, Willie X
 

Paul Statham

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Oct 22, 2020
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Hi all just at my daughter's I will have another go when I get home I have tried the wheels one way then another moving strike to the chime side putting the barrels one way then another I have not even cleaned the clock yet just found a picture of a clock same as mine it's still assembled but i can see some of the wheels and fly so when I get home I will have a go
 

Paul Statham

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Oct 22, 2020
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At last manage to get my head in gear :screwball:(pardon the pun)and arranged the wheels in the correct order:nutjob:
I had the barrels in the wrong order when i marked the barrels i marked large one as the time when instead of chime so wheel B was the wrong way and the 2 smaller barrels are the time and strike what a donkey i am:banghead:hope that makes sense, now i can strip it down clean and do the bushing thanks everyone but i probably will be back when it comes to the levers and setting the chime and strike that will be fun:chuckling:

IMG_20210604_102128758_HDR.jpg IMG_20210604_131253000_HDR.jpg
 

shutterbug

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But now you have one fly upside down. Something is still wrong I think.
 

Paul Statham

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But now you have one fly upside down. Something is still wrong I think.
I looked on the ebay and found one which was in a bit of a state but i was able to see some of the wheels and it shown the fly that way i will have another look if i can find it.thanks shutterbug
 

Mike Phelan

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Paul,

Seems to me that just the fly arbors have been swapped around, but the flies themselves are correct way round.

Looking at your last pic, the chime fly pinion is barely or not touching the warning wheel teeth, and the same applies to the strike fly pinion.

Might just be the way the pic was angled.
 

Willie X

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The different combinations can get pretty big, when the flies are removed from their arbors too! :oops: Willie X
 

Paul Statham

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Paul,

Seems to me that just the fly arbors have been swapped around, but the flies themselves are correct way round.

Looking at your last pic, the chime fly pinion is barely or not touching the warning wheel teeth, and the same applies to the strike fly pinion.

Might just be the way the pic was angled.
Hi Mike will check that when i get back i did put them the same way as the photo of the ebay movement (i think)
 

shutterbug

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I guess the proof is in the pudding (whatever that means). If the chime drum turns the correct direction, all is good. But I've never seen a movement with the fly's sitting in opposing directions like that. At least not that I can remember :)
It is normal though for the chime drum to run the opposite direction, even though they wind the same direction, so that part looks right.
 

Simon Holt

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But I've never seen a movement with the fly's sitting in opposing directions like that.
See post #11 - a Perivale I worked on recently.

Simon

Edit: It may be a consequence of that accursed 'reversed' chime spring barrel.
 

Mike Phelan

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All those in this part of the world wind up clockwise; the chime and strike trains have the same number of wheels therefore the flies rotate in the same direction. :confused:
 

Simon Holt

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Just to clarify: by 'reverse' I was referring to the fact that the square end of the winding arbor projects through the barrel, instead of through the barrel cap.

Simon
 

Thomas Sanguigni

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It is always good to take lots of pictures before and during disassembly. Willie makes mention of marking the trains. I had a mentor that taught to mark discretely with a scratch awl the trains on their face up positions with: a single scratch for time, two scratches for strike, and a C for chime. If you get turned around on reassembly you just look at your marks. I still do that on springs too.
 

shutterbug

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I just keep the trains separated on their own key chain. They can then be cleaned together with everything else but separately for bushing, polishing, etc. Then there's no question what wheel goes with each train, and the trains are very easy to identify by noting the strike and chime wheels. I don't like to mark things.
 

Paul Statham

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Hi why i don't listen to what people say i don't know:banghead: you Simon and a few others were right,I i just needed to go buy your picture Simon and everything fell in to place i was sure the large barrel was in the middle and the two smaller either side.Normally i take plenty of photo's not this time lesson learnt and sutterbug i will put wire round and tag them.I afraid to ask my next question.this first wheel needs a new bush and i don't have a lathe to make one ,the problem IMG_20210614_121839756.jpg IMG_20210614_122005460.jpg i am having is finding a bush to fit with the right size pivot hole somewhere along the line someone has battered around the previous bush to make it fit now i have taken it out i can't seem to find a bush to fit ,any suggestions will be grateful
 

shutterbug

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Often you'll have to use a bushing with a smaller hole. Then enlarge it.
 

Simon Holt

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...the hole the bush needs to go in is 4.39 and the pivot is 2.06
Hi Paul

Well, that doesn't seem to match anything from Bergeon or KWM. Nor does it match any hollow bushing rods from my usual supplier in the UK (Cousins).

I can turn one up for you if you like. What is the plate thickness? And - do you have a set of cutting broaches? If not, I'll make the internal diameter 2.16 to allow for 5% tolerance. I'll make the OD 4.36 non-tapered, so you may need to use LocTite (or more punching ... :eek:) to secure it.

Send me a PM (via 'Start Conversation' from my avatar) if you'd like me to do that.

Simon
 

Paul Statham

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Hi Paul

Well, that doesn't seem to match anything from Bergeon or KWM. Nor does it match any hollow bushing rods from my usual supplier in the UK (Cousins).

I can turn one up for you if you like. What is the plate thickness? And - do you have a set of cutting broaches? If not, I'll make the internal diameter 2.16 to allow for 5% tolerance. I'll make the OD 4.36 non-tapered, so you may need to use LocTite (or more punching ... :eek:) to secure it.

Send me a PM (via 'Start Conversation' from my avatar) if you'd like me to do that.

Simon
Much appreciated that Simon yes I have cutting broaches not sure of the size of plates and at my daughter's until Tuesday night ok if I contact you Wednesday i know the bushes I've had from Counsins have been the same thickness for the English mantle clocks I have worked on, have been the right thickness but i will check when i get home thanks . Paul
 

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