Clumsy Clock Cleaning?

[Kiggsia]

My Seth Thomas 89 movement got to where it would no longer stay in beat. I sprayed it down with contact cleaner and blew it dry with an air compressor, then reoiled very slightly as instructed with synthetic clock oil. The movement then never stayed running no matter how carefully I tried to adjust the crutch rod to put it into beat. As can be seen in attached photos, there are slight fine gray powdery deposits on a few of the gears and other small areas of the inner works that I couldn't get a picture of. Might these gray films be bogging down the mechanism? What spray solvent would work for cleaning mechanisms? I have a small ultrasonic tank, should I use this instead of an aerosol solvent?

 

[Mike Phelan]

Seems as if it just wants cleaning "properly", any bushes and other repairs needed and reassembling with the correct oil in the proper places.

 

[JTD]

All you have done by spraying with brake cleaner (which does leave a gray deposit) and then lubricate is to re-arrange the dirt and then oil it. (It is this, and not the gray deposit, that causes your problems).

What spray solvent would work for cleaning mechanisms?

You can't clean a movement properly with any spray. It needs to be taken apart and cleaned, bushed where necessary etc. and the re-assembled (see post #2 above).

I have a small ultrasonic tank, should I use this instead of an aerosol solvent?

Yes, but only after you have taken the movement apart. Dunking the whole movement will not do the job.

JTD

 

[Kiggsia]

Thanks for replies about ineffective clock cleaning. I now intend to very carefully disassemble my movement, taking as many pictures as i need to try to reassemble correctly. At this point, never having done this, i expect this to be as difficult as a jigsaw puzzle, & im wondering how those of you who have done this would describe the task.

 

[David Hill]

Recommend movement disassembly, ultra sonic cleaning, pegging out bushings with wood pegs (also checking for egg shaped holes), polishing pivots, assemble and lubricate pivots and mainsprings. Checking escape wheel teeth to be straight and verge is not rutted from the escape wheel. Should that be the case you could stake the escape wheel either direction on the shaft (.030") depending clearance within the movements other wheels. Mainsprings should be examined during disassembly for cracks, etc. This method would be the complete overhaul of the #89 allowing it to be in GRO for years. I recommend to my customers clocks should be checked for wear and to re-oil pivots, mainsprings, etc. every 4-5 years depending on home environment.

 

[R. Croswell]

Thanks for replies about ineffective clock cleaning. I now intend to very carefully disassemble my movement, taking as many pictures as i need to try to reassemble correctly. At this point, never having done this, i expect this to be as difficult as a jigsaw puzzle, & im wondering how those of you who have done this would describe the task.

PLEASE do nothing until you have read up on how to do this safely. You MUST properly restrain and let down the power from the powerful main springs or it will explode in your face sending gears in every direction when you separate the plates. Steven Conover's book, Clock Repair Basics is good, and there are others. Yes, it does need to come apart to be cleaned.

RC

 

[Dick Feldman]

I get it that you are into this project well beyond well your capabilities.
Clock repair is not a series of guesses.
Proper cleaning at this point is likely not an issue if you plan for the clock to run when you are done.
The most likely cause of your clock not running is low power due to friction due to wear.
Unless you are ready to solve wear problems, you are doomed.
Clean, oil and adjust are not bad for clock movements but those are seldom viable cures for what is wrong with the movement.
JMHO,
Dick

 

[bruce linde]

not to pile on, but show me any of the standard clock repair books that recommends any process other than full disassembly and servicing? from ultrasonic cleaning to dealing with worn or bent pivots and pivot holes, etc.?

start here: proper way to service movement site:mb.nawcc.org - Google Search

 

[Willie X]

Well, you should locate the problem before you do anything. Once the clock is apart, your ability to troubleshoot is out the window.

The puzzle analogy is a good one but only if you're talking about a 2000 piece puzzle of a wheat field.

I would recommend that you set that clock aside and wait until you successfully repair a dozen or more one or two train movements.

Willie X

 

[Bernhard J.]

Most of us, including the profs, started with doing things wrong and learning thereby. We just do not tell ...

I would say as long as you observe letting down the main springs, you have chances to get the movement cleaned properly. Just do not rush, be impatient, and use your brain before doing something. And take a lot of photos, as you said. After proper cleaning you then can reassemble the movement and see what happens, in particular whether there is excessive wear anywhere (resulting in disassembly again, but now you have practice). Or whether it runs properly .

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[Raymond101]

Switch cleaners are no long good due to the propellant.
There is a problem with the site editing. Adds lines and spaces and crashes. Sorry for the bad trying to correct edit .
s

 

[JayKosta]

Does this pivot / bushing look especially bad?
If there are others where the pivot is a very loose fit, that will prevent the gears from meshing properly. No amount of oil or cleaning will 'fix' parts that are worn beyond their ability to function.

 

[Willie X]

I thought I was responding to a thread about a first time repairer and a chiming clock? Not ...

This Gilbert is not that bad as a first time project, not ideal but Ok, if the motion works pinion isn't bad. Willie X

 

[steamer471]

From a glance, the main wheel bushing looks worn and the pendulum rod needs to be threaded through the crutch foot.

 

[Kiggsia]

From a glance, the main wheel bushing looks worn and the pendulum rod needs to be threaded through the crutch foot.

The pendulum rod had been threaded through the crutch foot before I removed the mechanism from the clock wooden case. And I appreciate this reply & all other replies from all those who have replied to me.

 

[Kiggsia]

Di

Switch cleaners are no long good due to the propellant.
There is a problem with the site editing. Adds lines and spaces and crashes. Sorry for the bad trying to correct edit .
s

D you mean that the propellant is now found to be an environment hazard?

 

[Dick Feldman]

Most of us, including the profs, started with doing things wrong and learning thereby. We just do not tell .

That is not true.
Many of the participants, manly the ones that know what they are doing have spent a lot of time and effort learning proper practices from mentors, reading books and taking actual classes in clock repair. In the real world, that is the simplest and smartest way to learn the trade. Every day the good repair people see botched up jobs come in that they are obligated to redo to make a clock reliable and long lived. Those botched jobs sometimes come from innocent repair attempts.
This board is populated by all levels of clock repair people. Some are good and those represent hundreds of years of experience. Some are not good but willing to share bad advice and promote bad practice.
That is how I feel,
Dick

 

[R. Croswell]

Thanks for replies about ineffective clock cleaning. I now intend to very carefully disassemble my movement, taking as many pictures as i need to try to reassemble correctly. At this point, never having done this, i expect this to be as difficult as a jigsaw puzzle, & im wondering how those of you who have done this would describe the task.

Kiggsia, you have already gotten a lot of advice and encouragement and discouragement. Lets sort out a few things and make sure that you have at least some understanding of what to expect and your chances of achieving your goals - not mine or Dicks, or anyone else's. It is your clock, you will be making decisions and dealing with the consequences.

The Seth Thomas 89 movement is a pretty typical example of a time and strike movement. There are those who would suggest as a first clock a dozen different clock movements for various reasons but this one is OK for a first clock movement. There are two main sections to this movement - the time or going train, and the strike train. Taking pictures will be helpful, but that won't be enough for the strike train. Certain gears in the strike train must line up with certain other gears that have "stop pins" that must be in the proper relationship to the various levers and cams that count and control the strike. Even if you separate the pates carefully, some of these parts will become disengaged and move around on you. The chances that this clock will run and strike correctly if you just put it together with the parts in the right place are very close to zero. In order to successfully reassemble the strike train, you really need to understand how it works. I recommend two books that should be helpful:
Clock Repair Basics, by Steven G. Conover, and Striking Clock Repair Guide, by Steven G. Conover. The latter explains how strike trains work and has a section on the Seth Thomas 89 movement.

This being your first movement, I would suggest that once you have it disassembled, set aside all the strike train parts and focus on getting the time train running. You need to get experience dealing with mainsprings, getting several wheels and pinions all back in place and learning how the escapement works and how to set the clock in beat. In other words, turn this into a simple time only movement until you learn how to return it to working order, including installing bushings and other repairs to ensure that it runs well for a long time. Don't hesitate to take it apart as many times as necessary. Before this project is over, expect to take it apart many times. Once you have the time train working as it should - that means having decent overswing, keeping reasonable time, and running 8+ days on a full wind, then you can add the strike train and sort out any strike problems.

Those of us who have been working on clocks like this for some time generally do like to diagnose the problem before taking a clock apart. That's most helpful in diagnosing strike problems but is of little help until one understand how the strike train is supposed to function. In this clock, you did not mention any striking problems, just that it will not stay in beat and will not stay running. Dick said, "The most likely cause of your clock not running is low power due to friction due to wear". That may sound like a broken record, but it is quite true. You can't see friction, but it is generated by every moving part and worn parts and dirty parts generate more friction.

For your clock to run properly and stay in beat the pendulum must achieve an adequate swing and overswing (the distance the pendulum continues to move in the same direction after the escapement ticks). When the overswing approaches zero the clock becomes unstable and reluctant to keep running, and very sensitive about being level.

Another true statement, "Clean, oil and adjust are not bad for clock movements but those are seldom viable cures for what is wrong with the movement". So why do we see so many people on You-Tube and even some here advocating what you attempted to do - spray something on the movement, or dunk and swish the whole thing in a bucket or gasoline, and then report success? The answer is simple. In most cases, the clock runs until there is so much friction from all causes that the pendulum does not receive enough power to keep running. Any reduction in friction from partial cleaning, adding oil, or even bushing a single pivot hole can balance the equation and give the pendulum the power to run again. Of course, it won't usually run very well, and it won't be long before it is back on the bench again. It usually takes less time to fix it right the first time. So as a learning step, go ahead and take it apart and clean it and inspect the pivots etc. and put it back together and see how it runs while you gather the tools to polish the pivots and install bushings. Then take your best shot at polishing pivots and installing bushings and see how much better it runs.

Finally, don't take in clocks belonging to others to be fixed until you have a lot more experience with stuff of your own. I agree, a mentor would be great if you can find one, otherwise it's the books and the resources available here.

Have fun!

RC

 

[Bernhard J.]

That is not true.
Many of the participants, manly the ones that know what they are doing have spent a lot of time and effort learning proper practices from mentors, reading books and taking actual classes in clock repair. In the real world, that is the simplest and smartest way to learn the trade. Every day the good repair people see botched up jobs come in that they are obligated to redo to make a clock reliable and long lived. Those botched jobs sometimes come from innocent repair attempts.
This board is populated by all levels of clock repair people. Some are good and those represent hundreds of years of experience. Some are not good but willing to share bad advice and promote bad practice.
That is how I feel,
Dick

Hi Dick,

Okay, I should have spoken about myself only. In my case things even today happen. Just recently, when servicing the H.S. Smith clock (see thread), I forgot to fit a pin to the gathering pallet arbor . During the test run the gathering pallet consequently fell off during striking. The fix was quick and easy, of course. At least in my case things happen once and a while, but I would not call my fault "bodging".

Would I have started working on clocks and watches (in the pre-internet era, I am old), if I had been strongly discouraged right from the beginning? As a stubborn person with perhaps excessive self-confidence, presumably yes. And I still need to know an apprentice even in the trade of today (internet), who never ever did anything wrong.

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[Raymond101]

Di

D you mean that the propellant is now found to be an environment hazard?

Its not the environment that I was referring to its the switch cleaner properties are now designed for Lead free.
and the old brass that your clock is made of was not just copper & zinc . they added tin to harden the brass.
and switch cleaner is designed to remove tin whiskers from circuit boards ie PCB .
That white is a reaction to the tin and Maybe lead also within the brass
the propellant in aerosols is now propane & acetone gas .Both re-act to synthetic & mineral oils . turning them into a green sludge.
Its worse than WD40 . Zipo lighter fluid would be better .

 

[Kiggsia]

A few weeks ago I got to thinking that because I had read about only applying a very tiny amount of oil to my clock bushings, maybe I under reacted and didn't use enough, and that was why my clock wouldn't stay running. The replies I had received when I posted about my failed clock cleaning & re oiling had taken the wind out of my sails for trying to disassemble and service the clock myself. So I liberally added more synthetic clock oil, & swabbed up the excess. And my clock has been working properly ever since!‍

Seems as if it just wants cleaning "properly", any bushes and other repairs needed and reassembling with the correct oil in the proper places.

 

[Kiggsia]

A few weeks ago I got to thinking that because I had read about only applying a very tiny amount of oil to my clock bushings, maybe I under reacted and didn't use enough. So I liberally added more, & swabbed up the excess. And my clock has been working properly ever since!

I get it that you are into this project well beyond well your capabilities.
Clock repair is not a series of guesses.
Proper cleaning at this point is likely not an issue if you plan for the clock to run when you are done.
The most likely cause of your clock not running is low power due to friction due to wear.
Unless you are ready to solve wear problems, you are doomed.
Clean, oil and adjust are not bad for clock movements but those are seldom viable cures for what is wrong with the movement.
JMHO,
Dick

I'm also wondering what would be the result of spraying silicone lube into the moving parts of a brass clock mechanism, which dries and leaves a silicone film. I'm guessing that this would not adequately displace dirty oil and neither would it be a sufficient lubricant?

 

[JTD]

I'm guessing that this would not adequately displace dirty oil and neither would it be a sufficient lubricant

You are right.

JTD

 

[JayKosta]

... So I liberally added more synthetic clock oil, & swabbed up the excess. And my clock has been working properly ever since!‍

----------------------------------------------------------------------
The typical warning about removing excess oil is that unless done very carefully, it can also 'suck' needed oil out of the pivots. Hence the advice to apply ONLY the needed amount and let it be.

 

[Mike Mall]

A few weeks ago I got to thinking that because I had read about only applying a very tiny amount of oil to my clock bushings, maybe I under reacted and didn't use enough, and that was why my clock wouldn't stay running. The replies I had received when I posted about my failed clock cleaning & re oiling had taken the wind out of my sails for trying to disassemble and service the clock myself. So I liberally added more synthetic clock oil, & swabbed up the excess. And my clock has been working properly ever since!‍

The aspect to know is many of the replies / advice you receive here, are from professionals that have to stand behind their work. The practices mentioned are to promote longevity of the repair.
Yes you can 'shortcut' the procedures, but the results are going to be less than optimum.
The added oil has lowered the friction mentioned.
If you don't remove all of the tiny dirt and dust particles, you have created a grinding compound in the pivots.
It's all a roll of the dice, but it's your clock.

 

[Willie X]

It will stop soon enough and you will be back to square one, no harm no fowl.

So, do some reading in the meantime and you will be better prepared to go forward with your clock repair project.

Willie X

 

[Nitrous]

Seems as if it just wants cleaning "properly", any bushes and other repairs needed and reassembling with the correct oil in the proper places.

I guess you know how disheartening this response is... to the OP and any other newbie struggling with a movement infinitely more complex than our ability to safely consider working on....

 

[Nitrous]

Thanks for replies about ineffective clock cleaning. I now intend to very carefully disassemble my movement, taking as many pictures as i need to try to reassemble correctly. At this point, never having done this, i expect this to be as difficult as a jigsaw puzzle, & im wondering how those of you who have done this would describe the task.

I'm sure that this is a contentious issue and will draw all sorts of ire, but.... do a search for "Duncan Swish" But if you manage to get it back together, my hat is off to you...

 

[bruce linde]

I guess you know how disheartening this response is... to the OP and any other newbie struggling with a movement infinitely more complex than our ability to safely consider working on....

except that it was true, and stated neutrally?

yes, it's a bummer when initial clock excitement slams into reality for those less experienced… we've all been there.

but ...

as you learn how to do this properly, you get better quality excitement and appreciation... and more of it, more of the time.

the extra oil that was added might have been what was needed to get it running in the short time... but without full disassembly there is no way to assess pivot or pivot hole wear... or remove sludge and dust that has accrued over time.

 

[Willie X]

First, forget the spray can ...

Look up, 'checking for wear'.
wow just described this process a few days ago on a currently running thread.

Wear in an ST-89 time train is usually at the top 3 arbors (6-points). It can be at only one or two of these points. This wear can only be repaired with bushing work, which is another lesson that must be learned in order to repair your clock ...

Willie X

 

[R. Croswell]

Seems as if it just wants cleaning "properly", any bushes and other repairs needed and reassembling with the correct oil in the proper places.

Nitrous

I guess you know how disheartening this response is... to the OP and any other newbie struggling with a movement infinitely more complex than our ability to safely consider working on....

And just who's fault is it when someone ends up struggling with a movement infinitely more complex than their ability? Newbies here are repeatedly cautioned not to jump into movements that are beyond their ability at the beginner stage. Newbies are also repeatedly cautioned that almost every non-running clock will have wear defects that are the root cause of the friction that is preventing their clock from running and that a half fast cleaning and oil soak will not fix it. Yet many disregard the professional advice given preferring to listen to rank amateurs, here and on YouTube, proclaiming all sorts of short cuts and bad methods that at best can only yield short lived results and a poorly running clock. No wonder so many newbies find themselves mired down with failure after failure, then when they hit on something that seems to work for the moment, they shout it from the rooftops and lead other newbies down the same wrong trail. The truth is the truth, and the facts are the facts, and this may be hard to swallow, but if one choses to ignore the caution signs and becomes disheartened, so be it.

In all my years of following this forum I can't recall a single case where the experienced posters here ever gave up on anyone who would listen and follow advice until there was a good outcome.

Advocating improper and often dangerous and/or ineffective methods is nothing new. I have a clock repair book from the 1920's. The author recommends keeping a bucket of gasoline in the back room for cheap clocks and those customers do not want to pay for complete service. He recommends winding the clock, removing the verge, pitching the whole shebang into the bucket of gasoline and letting it run down, and done! Seriously, that's stupid thing to do, could cause an explosion and burn the shop down, and the clock, if it runs, probably won't do so before long, then what. Back to the gas bucket?

RC

 

[Willie X]

Amen Brother Croswell.

I remember a post (a few years back) where a newcomer had fitted an arbor/wheel into an ST clocks strike train. The part came from a 'like' donar movement but simply would not run.

Come to find out (after 104 post) there were several variations in this part and it's depthing over the years and the parts were generally not interchangeable. It was a learning experience for all ...

Willie

 

[bruce linde]

He recommends winding the clock, removing the verge, pitching the whole shebang into the bucket of gasoline and letting it run down, and done!

oh, crap... was i supposed to remove the verge? i also left the weight cords on... they smell like gasoline, but at least i know they're germ free.

 

[R. Croswell]

Amen Brother Croswell.

I remember a post (a few years back) where a newcomer had fitted an arbor/wheel into an ST clocks strike train. The part came from a 'like' donar movement but simply would not run.

Come to find out (after 104 post) there were several variations in this part and it's depthing over the years and the parts were generally not interchangeable. It was a learning experience for all ...

Willie

I think I that one.

 

[R. Croswell]

[edit above] I think I remember that one.

 

[Mike Phelan]

I remember something in a book (Mrs Beeton?) saying that if a clock didn't run, try washing the movement in paraffin and then in hot water and soap!

 

[Raymond101]

I am also a novice with clocks .
But I an engineer and worked on many mechanical items.
First I would take Croswell, Willie X, and the others advice as they have given me wonderful help in the past .
I have as an engineer always studied how a new unknown works before madly undoing every screw etc . I find just looking at a clock seeing how all the parts interact. Non tech here on .
A clock is a bit like a bicycle. The pedals are the power input. It connects to a chain via large cog Going to a smaller cog (wheel ) now think of going down a hill . You need some braking. So you pump the brakes to slow down. Ok the brake in a clock is a tooth cog and a rocking arm that stop it every tooth. Via a pendulum. Speed control.
So if your chain of power is out due to bearing broken link your bike doesn't work well.
As every one here has tried to explain dropping your bike in a pond to clean it might not be productive.
I have also taken quite a few clock apart replaced broken teeth had more downs, walk away come back coffee & smokes.
And taken advice from pro's learnt that the solution to a hard problem is always the simplest one .
Some these clocks are over 120 yrs before internet etc people made fixed clocks with just simple tools at hand .
Practice, patience maybe hard for some . Take your time in the end when finished if it ticks you have won .
It doesn't matter if at first it doesn't keep time good . Tomorrow is another day.
Another achievement will arrive.
Never say can't. Never say it's impossible. Nothing is impossible. Just a little hard.
learn and pat your self on the back .
In a month of a year that clock will be back on the salon wall . Tell your friend I did it . And move on to the next .
Live well have fun doing something creative.
Raymond.