Clockmakers Hall of Shame

Bruce Alexander

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A recent thread mentioned shimming the square if it's loose. Bushing should take care of the rest. It will be interesting to see if everything works right without the spring. Let us know.
Thanks SB.

I'll look for it. Even though the Gathering Pallet has too much slop (in my opinion) the tolerances are still pretty tight. The "Pivot" goes right into a Leaf Pinion so I'm reluctant to mess with it if I don't have to. Turns out that the Pivot is out of true so I suspect that alone could have been causing problems with the mechanism. Maybe the spring overcame the problem. There were several clock shop service labels on the case so who knows what was done and by who? I just get upset to see 1.4 mm bushings in plates this thick. You know?

This project will take some time. I may start a separate thread on it. Thanks again for your input.

Regards,

Bruce
 

Bruce Alexander

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A recent thread mentioned shimming the square if it's loose
SB, I didn't check that Thread but I did find a solution.

I annealed the Gathering Pallet and used my small bench vise to press fit the Gathering Pallet with the Arbor in place. That took care of the slop. It's nice and tight now, but not so tight as to make it difficult to place/remove the G.P. This part takes a lot of force as it locks the Chime Train so I was sure to re-harden, temper and "file test" the steel. I could only apply force to the two parallel sides which don't involve the working surfaces of the part, but I'm satisfied and believe it will work. I'll be sure to test it for an extended run time.

It will be nice when Moore Clocks gets up and running with Herschede Parts manufacturing.

Regards,

Bruce
 
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Bruce Alexander

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How did they expect me to get the front plate off?

View attachment 569890
Maybe we should add a Solder Sucker to the list of "Basic essential tools for the beginner" bangster. I've got an Ansonia case which I find a little hard to believe. I'm not in the "Never Solder" Camp, but I think it may be one of the most abused/misused materials in Clock Repair. At least from what little I've seen so far. Plus, it's a real pain to remove from Brass.
 

shutterbug

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How did they expect me to get the front plate off?
The truthful answer is that they didn't care. "Git 'er done and gone" is the mantra of too many repairers.
 

bangster

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Oh, I own a solder sucker. Does that make it ok for some doofus to solder the gathering pallet?:confused:
"Hey solder whatever you like. Heck, everybody owns or can get a solder sucker."
 

leeinv66

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Ah, but it's a hybrid electric/mechanical clock, so solder is allowed in the electric half of it. They just put it in the wrong half :)
 
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kinsler33

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Wow Vernon! Those pictures bring new meaning to the term "shame." I am beginning to see what you mean now. That soldering is gross. This thread is an eye opener on depravity! Thanks for the post and good luck with the clean up. BerryG
That's a very nice restoration. But I hardly think that the previous repair job, complete with solder, would in any way qualify as 'depravity,' for it was an honest and effective repair that was likely performed a hundred years ago. It would have been done quickly--possibly in the customer's home--and without machine tools.

The movement was concealed in the case, and it's unlikely that either the owner or the practitioner was concerned over the aesthetics provided that the clock--a device probably vital to the owner's well-being--ran reliably. In those days clocks were not objects for hobbyists, nor were clock repairmen engaged in artistic restoration.

Question: did the clock run, at least somewhat, when you acquired it? While that solder job is unattractive, the brass block that was soldered to the plate likely lasted longer than the original plate did. Accordingly, if that winding-arbor hole is restored to its original factory appearance, whatever bushing used here in this latest restoration will wear as quickly as the original.

Having said that, I would have removed the block and its solder myself, and lavishly polished everything as well, just as I have when confronted with similar jobs. But I cannot and would not criticize the previous repair work, for the fellow who did it so long ago was just doing his job back in 1932, and there's a kinship there.
 

Bruce Alexander

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We can speculate on the circumstances behind some of these repairs until it's time to go to bed and that will gain us nothing more than a night of fitful sleep. The clock still exists. Whether that is because of, or despite the repairs in question is also anyone's guess. We can only deal in the present.

Presently I have an Ansonia Sonia No. 1 to "deal" with. These "Sonia" Series Westminster Clocks have very nicely manufactured "Sonia" Chime Rods mounted in resonant Tambour Cases so they sound and look pleasant. In my opinion, the "Pat. Pend" movements that Ansonia manufactured for these models are somewhat less than desirable. That becomes exponentially so when someone monkeys around with the design and uses globs of solder to do so. Such is the case with this poor, miserable clock.

Case As Found.JPG

There are so many issues that I won't bore you with. Let's just focus on the use of solder.

The Motion Works and Quarter Lift Pins have been abused to the point that I'm having to spend a lot of time in an effort to at least partially reverse the changes and re-establish Chime Correction. For some strange reason, someone soldered/altered the shape and lift positions of the chime lift pins. They also "Adjusted" the Chime Correction Lever in such a way that every quarter had enough lift to activate the Chime Correction sequence. I think someone was a bit confused...:?|

Bent Correction Lever and Lift Pins.jpg

?temp_hash=8abd815c3a365c83a69260e1a49fb60e.jpg

The minute arbor also shows signs of high heat with traces of solder. I still don't know what that's about but the Hands have been altered as well.

Evidence of Minute Arbor Alteration.JPG

Also again, for some unknown reason (perhaps a power problem?), someone severely trimmed the Chime Fly Blade.
Here are the original Governor Blades from a different movement:

?temp_hash=8abd815c3a365c83a69260e1a49fb60e.jpg

Here are the soldered Fans as found.
Note that the Chime Blade is below

Chime Govenor Soldered.JPG

This is the Strike Fan. That's the Strike Warning Lever with the soldered spring. (That's not even the half of it.)..
Soldered Parts.JPG

I don't believe that this work was from a hundred years ago. Someone deeply scratched their name and date into the front plate. Evidently they were proud of their handiwork here.
I've blocked out the name but you can see that the movement was worked on (or over) in 1978.

1978 Anonymous.jpg

Now, I must say that I have the advantage of owning Steven Conover's Shop Manual on Chime Clock Repair (Well worth the money!) so I know how this movement is supposed to work. Unfortunately Mr. Conover couldn't possibly include a chapter on how to reverse all of this garbage before I can even get to the point of a reasonable overhaul..

I believe it appropriate to call this a legitimate entry into the "Hall of Shame".

It will come as no surprise that, as found, this clock wasn't working properly but it "ran".

What would you do if this poor, abused "Sonia No. 1" landed on your bench? :mallet:

Regards,

Bruce



Altered Chime Lift Pins Inner View.jpg Appropriate Governor Blades.jpg
 
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Kevin W.

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I have a upside down ogee clock. The movement has a lot of solder on it. One day, i will get to it. Would be a nice unusual clock to display.
 

JimmyOz

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Okay, this is the latest one of the 3 GF clocks I have to repair in the last 18 months from customers that have had the same clock repairer based in my area supposedly repaired? The clock needs almost all the bushes done, not had it apart yet but pivots most likely need work, gathering pallet on the strike is chewed up, rust and gunk on steel work, clean all brass work. In all 3 cases the customers were charged 4 figure fees.
CIMG0736.JPG CIMG0737.JPG CIMG0739.JPG CIMG0740.JPG CIMG0741.JPG CIMG0747.JPG CIMG0748.JPG
This is a massive movement, the GF next to it is a large 1780 GF so you get an idea how big it is, the weights are 21.5kg, 17.5kg and 11.5kg.
Nice dial also, made around 1900.
CIMG0749.JPG CIMG0750.JPG
 
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kinsler33

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The repairs done on the 'Sonia' clock are, to use the horological phraseology, another kettle of fish altogether. I wouldn't be at all pleased, either with Ansonia (I think I had to deal with one of those, once) or with the Butcher of 1978. There are plenty of incompetent practitioners out there. The 'cigar box' clock, however, was given a relatively minimal and reversible repair that got it running, and for what I suspect was a long time.
 

shutterbug

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Yes, relatively minimal and reversible .... but at a maximum and non-refundable price. Criminal.
 

Berry Greene

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That's a very nice restoration. But I hardly think that the previous repair job, complete with solder, would in any way qualify as 'depravity,' for it was an honest and effective repair that was likely performed a hundred years ago. It would have been done quickly--possibly in the customer's home--and without machine tools.

The movement was concealed in the case, and it's unlikely that either the owner or the practitioner was concerned over the aesthetics provided that the clock--a device probably vital to the owner's well-being--ran reliably. In those days clocks were not objects for hobbyists, nor were clock repairmen engaged in artistic restoration.

Question: did the clock run, at least somewhat, when you acquired it? While that solder job is unattractive, the brass block that was soldered to the plate likely lasted longer than the original plate did. Accordingly, if that winding-arbor hole is restored to its original factory appearance, whatever bushing used here in this latest restoration will wear as quickly as the original.

Having said that, I would have removed the block and its solder myself, and lavishly polished everything as well, just as I have when confronted with similar jobs. But I cannot and would not criticize the previous repair work, for the fellow who did it so long ago was just doing his job back in 1932, and there's a kinship there.
I would not argue heavily on any of this. We approach from different directions and for somewhat different purposes. A result at any price? Well there are circumstances when even that could have happened. Particularly as you point out, 100 years ago. Tools: Solder suckers, electric irons, wide choice of bits, gas torches, wonderful glues & cements. Yeah yeah it all weighs in. Of course it does. I suppose we all have bottom lines. However, a "Hall of Shame" thread which this is, offers something of a chance to consider where we ought to be aiming. It might expose bad practice but also better alternative ways. I am still learning things in my own trade. Methods that were not perhaps available to me back in the day. Then there is the pull of sticking with what you know will work. We can get stuck in our ways can't we? We have paid dearly in the past to find a comfortable route. I often say - not only of clockwork, - "good-enough." I pinched it from a psychiatrist who coined it to describe the "good enough" mother. In the end everybody's right and everyone is wrong! ATB BerryG
 

Bruce Alexander

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This is a follow-up to post number 1650 in which I showed what I thought were examples of some substandard work on a Herschede 9-tube movement.

I described some very short bushings and a post factory gravity assist spring placed to make the Chime Rack Hook work albeit with accelerated wear.

There were also cleaning artifacts etched into the plate. (see photo below)
I have no idea what was used, but it wasn't completely removed and left corrosion/stains etched into the plate. There was no lacquer on either plate.

I used a method described by Steven Conover in his book on repairing Herschede Tubular Bell Movements: How to Repair Herschede Tubular Bell Clocks

The actual damascene process took me about 90 minutes per plate. It took a lot more time to acquire materials and fabricate the "jig" as described. I have everything I need now though and so far I'm very pleased with the results so I'm sure I'll use the process whenever I feel it is indicated in the future.

Below are a couple of before and after photos. I still have a lot of work to do on the clock but I think the movement was in the worst condition. That opinion may change as I work through the rest of the clock...:eek:

I can find active websites for both of the service labels still in the clock's case. I don't think I would put my name on the kind of work I found in this movement, especially if I didn't do it and had to let it pass through my shop due to price considerations of the current owner.

Fortunately this clock belongs to us. It will eventually change hands but I'm in no rush to get it out the door.

Regards,

Bruce

Front plate before. Note "cleaning" corrosion
Front Before.JPG

Front plate after
Front After.JPG

Rear Plate before
Rear Before.JPG

Rear Plate after
Rear After.JPG

Plate Jig (used a fan to keep Drill Press Motor cool during sessions)
Damascene Jig.JPG

Damascene and Lap Tooling
Damascene Tool.JPG

Short Bushings as found. Needed to custom turn and re-center replacements
Short Bushings.JPG
 
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shutterbug

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Good work! You might like it enough to keep it :)
 

Bruce Alexander

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In all 3 cases the customers were charged 4 figure fees.
How long ago were these clocks serviced? Four figure service should have "bought" a lot of time and a very long warranty in my view.
Hopefully you'll be fairly compensated for providing a professional service. Educate the owner(s) as to what you've found and what needs to be done. They can draw their own conclusions and tell their friends.

but at a maximum and non-refundable price. Criminal.
I tend to agree SB. Perhaps a "con job". :?| There must be a lot of unmet demand in that area.

Good work! You might like it enough to keep it :)
Thank you. We liked it enough to acquire it. We'll be moving in the not too distant future. Not sure that we'll have room for it. Maybe in one of the bedrooms? :chuckling:

Until then, I hope to take care of it properly.

Regards,
Bruce
 

JimmyOz

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How long ago were these clocks serviced? Four figure service should have "bought" a lot of time and a very long warranty in my view.
Hopefully you'll be fairly compensated for providing a professional service. Educate the owner(s) as to what you've found and what needs to be done. They can draw their own conclusions and tell their friends.
The shop received all 3 clocks within 2 months of the so called repairs, nothing was done to them that I could see and all need(ed) rebushing and other issues fixed, they were not even cleaned. I always make a list of the issues so the boss can quote and inform the customer. The boss did say that one customer managed to get AU$1000 back from this so called repairer. Word of mouth, I started at the shop 10 years ago doing 2 days a week, now work full time and still 8 to 10 weeks waiting time. We have started an apprentice, he will need to go to clock school (TAFE) for the more advanced learning though, however I can teach him the basics.
 

Bruce Alexander

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It will be interesting to see if everything works right without the spring. Let us know.
This is a follow-up to post 1650.

As I suspected SB, the problem was that the Rack Hook had just been a little rounded from wear.
Not just the tip, but the vertical surface too. The Rack Hook only superficially engages all Rack Teeth except the last one. Since Herschede movements use their Rack Hooks to lock both the Chime and Strike Trains, there was just enough bounce to lift the rounded Hook tip over that last tooth. The result was an unreliable Chime Train lock.

All I had to do was dress the end of the Rack Hook to both sharpen the end of the hook and remove the rounded vertical surface. Once dressed, the hook would fully engage the end tooth. The bounce was eliminated without the use of a gravity assist spring which was not part of the original design.

The spring had worked, but when compared to the rest of the movement it also accelerated wear to all parts affected by the additional force.

I imagine that the proper remedy probably took no more time than fabrication and placement of the spring.

This was a case of treating the symptom but not the root cause.

Regards,

Bruce
 

kinsler33

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Aside from my other gripes about the Clockmaker's Hall I would submit that ongoing threads like this are difficult to follow. I'm interested in the Herschede rack-hook issues, but this requires a good deal of shuffling to find Post 1650. There's a similar issue with Electric Horology's quartz clock thread.
 

kinsler33

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Really? :rolleyes:

Okay, here ya go Mark ...

View attachment 573320

Questions?
I didn't intend to annoy you. In my browser there are but 25 posts at a time, and so post #1650 comes up in a previous group. Between that post and your previous one there are several unrelated situations, each of which really deserved its own thread. Once I found #1650 I was able to understand what the difficulty was.

(Part of the problem, I think, is that they (Herschede, I assume) placed a steel gathering pallet on a steel shaft. Whether the added spring caused additional wear would be a matter of speculation, but it certainly was not a good repair.)

This is an active group, and I try to follow all of the new threads. Ongoing threads like Halls of Shame and Fame tend to slow down the process. Your situation was interesting, important, and very well presented, and it deserved its own thread.
 

leeinv66

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Aside from my other gripes about the Clockmaker's Hall I would submit that ongoing threads like this are difficult to follow. I'm interested in the Herschede rack-hook issues, but this requires a good deal of shuffling to find Post 1650. There's a similar issue with Electric Horology's quartz clock thread.
I agree, some of our super threads are very difficult to navigate. Particularly those in Clocks General that are dedicated to brand names. I often find myself scrolling through them looking for information I know I have seen, but just can't find. But, I have no idea how you could make it easier. Our search feature suck to be blunt. Hopefully it will get better with the next upgrade.
 

R. Croswell

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I know how y'all love this repair. Circle the wagons!!

View attachment 573438
I wouldn't really call it a repair, more like a half-fast temporary fix. At least whoever is responsible didn't use the usual metal screw. Much easier to remove solder than fill ugly holes. The sad thing is that there are people who are/were doing this sort of butchery and charging others for it.
]
RC
 

kinsler33

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When I first encountered Rathbun bushings (then called 'First-Aid Bushings') around 1961 I was surprised they worked at all, given that they depend upon the Connecticut custom of manufacturing arbors that were longer than necessary. I suppose the extra-long arbors were made that way to ensure that poor tolerances in plate spacing wouldn't affect the operation of the clock. If so, this would be yet another example of how clocks were cleverly designed to take into account the almost universal lack of precision, a fact of life in the pre-industrial era.
 

Bruce Alexander

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I'm well aware of your critical thoughts and feelings about the "Hall of Shame" Thread. If it really bothers you, you always have the option to ignore it.

placed a steel gathering pallet on a steel shaft. Whether the added spring caused additional wear would be a matter of speculation
I fail to see how placement of a gathering pallet fabricated from some other metal would be advisable in the case of Herschede's design. In any case, newly manufactured replacement parts are not available and Moore Clocks, the business which has supposedly bought "Herschede" from the now defunct R&M Imports, is not answering e-mail questions about Herschede. In my mind, that's not a good sign. There's no need for you to assume by the way. I'm clearly discussing a Herschede Movement.

As far as my "speculation" is concerned, view it as you wish. I reported an observation complete with a photo and short embedded video. I've worked on a number of these movements now and I've not seen this kind of wear before. This is the first time I've run across this type of hack.

The added spring increased pressure on the Rack Hook which had to be overcome by the gathering pallet/arbor/pivot hole. It also would increase wear to the Rack Teeth and Hook as well. I think it has been scientifically demonstrated in the field of Tribology that, all else being equal, more force (or load) applied to sliding surfaces results in accelerated wear to those surfaces Imagine dragging two relatively small but identically sized pieces of wood across the same length of roughly finished concrete. One board has no additional weight while the other supports a 10 pound weight. Which do you think will show the most wear or abrasion? I don't know that it's speculation so much as application of known facts.

We agree that the added spring was not an ideal fix to the problem of a worn Rack Hook. There were/are a lot of questionable fixes to this clock. Obviously, whoever did them got a working clock delivered to their customer. That's what they got paid to do. I hope they charged accordingly. I think that this is a quality clock and that it deserved better repair and maintenance efforts. That's a judgement call that I'm prepared to back up with my time and effort now that the clock is in my hands.

Thank you for your kind words. New entries are flagged as such and are not hard to find. I included more information on this and other examples I've recently posted here since you and others have criticized this Thread for having little educational value. Now it seems you've been critical of the fact that I refer back to previously posted comment, by number, when responding to a member's request for follow-up. Just now you've been critical of my use of the Thread to report on "repairs" that require quite a bit of extra time and effort on my part to reverse. Only after spending extra time and effort do I feel I can go on to provide regular, easier to maintain service. That's what I find annoying.

Perhaps in the future I'll start a new thread when it comes to reversal and repair with a link back to an entry here where I've previously reported the problem, but then you and others may very well be critical of the fact that I'm just "making fun" of substandard work here with no educational content.

What do you want Mark? If you don't like the Thread, don't read it, but if you do read something I've posted here, please don't gripe about my choices as to where I post my content. The Board's Search Function can find it for anyone interested in learning more about a "Herschede Gathering Pallet".

Regards,

Bruce
 

kinsler33

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Generally clocks aren't constructed with steel contacting steel or brass contacting brass. The similar metals have a tendency to seize and wear a good deal due to microscopic welds that form. I assume that this is why most gathering pallets are brass, mounted on a steel arbor, with a steel pin that contacts a brass rack. There are exceptions: steel screws into steel movement posts are one example, and steel mainsprings on steel arbors.

While it's true that the movement in question is from Herschede (if I've spelled it right) it had occurred to me that the gathering pallet could have been a replacement. And since it seems that I'm once again annoying the authorities here, I'll be signing off.
 

Bruce Alexander

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I know how y'all love this repair. Circle the wagons!!

View attachment 573438
A cheap shortcut with little regard for future maintenance. In my opinion.

While it's true that the movement in question is from Herschede (if I've spelled it right) it had occurred to me that the gathering pallet could have been a replacement. And since it seems that I'm once again annoying the authorities here, I'll be signing off.
I've had the movement in my hands and I don't believe that it is a replacement. It's tighter for now. I don't know how well it will stand up to the daily beating it receives though. They are constructed from steel because the Gathering Pallet/Rack unit puts both the Strike and Chime Trains in Lock. Brass would never hold up to the stress. There's still quite a bit of torque in that gear. I have no idea why Herschede designed their movements in this way but they did. Sometimes they just went their own way.

No need to "sign off". If you want to discuss the subject further, I'm happy to do so, I just don't want to re-litigate the existence of the HOS Thread with you.

Regards

Bruce
 

shutterbug

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Just for information in future discussions, if you find a post in a thread that you want to reference .... like the above situation, you can right click on the post number in the upper right corner of the post and copy its location. Then you can put it in a link so everyone can access it easily. Like this - it sends you directly to #1650. After that the left upper arrow takes you back here.
You can also reference a post in another thread the same way. ;)
 
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Altashot

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Not a repair but art work that has no place on a clock.

A0AF0CE7-6CFC-424B-8836-58EC0F9FE337.jpeg
DC7B855D-A881-4667-96E2-05B85EDEE5EB.png
A Church?
Why draw a Church?
Because of your religious convictions?

Just why?

M.
 
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kinsler33

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Not a repair but art work that has no place on a clock.

View attachment 617741
View attachment 617742
A Church?
Why draw a Church?
Because of your religious convictions?

Just why?

M.
Because it's the Alamo! Sacred symbol of freedom, independence, and the right to keep slaves, which was prohibited in Mexico in 1836.

I imagine, however, that someone was just fooling around. Nobody much looks at spring barrel covers.

M Kinsler
 

rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

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Not a repair but art work that has no place on a clock.

View attachment 617741
View attachment 617742
A Church?
Why draw a Church?
Because of your religious convictions?

Just why?

M.
I ask why is it included here? I think it makes the clock more interesting.

See this thread:

Spencerian birds and transition clocks

Here's a picture of the back of the dial of the subject clock as signed and embellished by a repair person:

jerome transition 1.JPG

Would this be considered a defacement? I don't.

I think the sketch engraved on the spring barrel, albeit somewhat crude, has quite a bit of age especially considering the style of the lettering accompanying it. I suspect it's in a place where it might only be seen by another repair person. The intent, message and why's and wheretofores are lost to us. However, I think it makes the clock more interesting without compromising it's functionality and fundamental integrity. Can't say that about a lot of "restorations" and repairs I've seen.

First, I really don't think it's the Alamo. Here's the Alamo:

alamo.png

It's some church. What are the origins and the age of the clock. European? From a particular city, etc? Knowing that might help identify it.

RM
 

kinsler33

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First, I really don't think it's the Alamo. Here's the Alamo:
Oh. Well, the Alamo was all I could think of.

For what it's worth, school kids had to learn that fancy Spencerian handwriting through the 1920's, and sketches much like that bird were exercises that were part of the curriculum. There was at least one correspondence school for handwriting that ran advertisements in my 1940's Popular Mechanics, too. Handwriting was once a much bigger deal than it is nowadays, and at one time good handwriting could land you a job.

And so we see it on a lot of clocks. I'm fortunate that it's no longer a requirement, for my handwriting was and is a disaster from first grade to the present.

Mark Kinsler
 

Bruce Alexander

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Why draw a Church?
Because of your religious convictions?
Can't get into religion here. Hitler was said to be a Christian though. Explain that one to me, please. The engraving wasn't exactly an accomplished attempt at art, in my opinion, but at least it wasn't a big glob of soft solder with corroded remnants of flux. How did the rest of the movement look to you? Any Rathbuns, globs of solder, hack-sawed plates or similar MacGyvers? Those are the kinds of things that normally land work in the HOS Thread.

the Alamo! Sacred symbol of freedom, independence, and the right to keep slaves, which was prohibited in Mexico in 1836
That was a good guess, and I didn't know the tie in with slavery. Many Americans did so love their freedom and right to own slaves. It was written in the Bible don't you know?
Also, according to the 1840 Census, slavery kept the slaves from going insane. An added benefit and a kindness slave owners were doing for their livestock. https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/10/17/1840-census-slavery-insanity/ Is there anything we won't justify/capitalize? It's a rhetorical question and I'm probably dancing a little close to the edge so please don't answer.

Getting back to Horology...
Would this be considered a defacement?
Only if it was on the face RM. It's nicely done, but it probably would not survive as a stand-alone artistic effort. I wonder if the repair person was making much of a living in the trade. Perhaps this was just a very quick effort on his part which would make it even more impressive. He wasn't getting paid for his artwork. My idea of "Zen" and the art of clock maintenance is that a subsequent repair person will only know that work has been done when the clock or movement is disassembled and/or closely examined. By that definition your discovered embellishment would qualify. I suppose it is (or was) also functional in that it documented the date of service for the next person. That, of course, becomes less important with each service interval. It is nice. Perhaps it would also encourage the best efforts of subsequent service attempts. That person had pride in his work and distinctively "signed" it. I certainly have no problem in understanding why you snapped it up. It was/is a beautiful clock. Does it run? Did you notice any "hacks" on or in the movement? Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems as though the mechanics of a clock may be secondary to you. A movement hack is not as much of a disincentive as would be a case which has been refinished. Is that fair to say in general?

Regards.

Bruce
 
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Berry Greene

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Oh Bruce you are making me smile. More of a rant but a good one. I'm here to learn and I have done so. That barrel cap could easily be turned over yeah. Looks more of a doodle than a message to me. Old repair marks can be a fascination if the date can be de-coded. Why's a code needed?
Why not a a brass foil sheet trapped under a plate stud which has been carefully inscribed with a short story: " I hate this bee clock in 28 parts by The Stargazer 'coz me clocks are all rubbish"
You made some interesting points. "Hitler was a Christian" I cannot enlarge on that.
Preventing the slaves from going mad. Well I think work can alter one's madness. Clocks certainly can. That extra wheel; absent helper spring; missing link....... Ah Darwin I think we have it here on this Forum....:<))
Reet Mun-kee lets brew some tea!
Best rgds, BerryG
 

R. Croswell

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Not a repair but art work that has no place on a clock.

View attachment 617741
View attachment 617742
A Church?
Why draw a Church?
Because of your religious convictions?

Just why?

M.
Perhaps it was a "mission clock" :whistle: although I've never seen a mission clock with barreled springs. I doubt that it was just decorative artwork placed where no one would see it. Perhaps it was the logo or " signature" of the repair person? If I found this on a clock that I purchased I would find it more interesting than damaging. It would certainly arouse speculation, as it has here, but I cannot condone leaving permanent markings on clocks that belong to someone else. If the clock owner sees this as a blank canvas, and wants to leave cryptic decorations,.......well it gives us something to talk about and doesn't do any real harm. Not sure this is "Hall of Shame" material but it is what it is.

RC
 

JimmyOz

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Maybe the repairer or owner had this put on as identification in case it was stolen, easer to remember a picture than an ID number?
 

Bruce Alexander

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More of a rant
Oops. Not my intention. Some aspects of American History I take very personally. A lot is left out and I'm often surprised to learn something. I shouldn't be by now.

Looks more of a doodle
Perhaps I was doodling while one of my American History Teachers was indoctrinating the class with propaganda. In any case, the clock repair person's mind was obviously wandering. I wonder if he was getting paid by the hour. :Party:

Perhaps it was a "mission clock" :whistle:
Good one RC.

You made me think about it. Early medieval European clockmakers were monks. Time to pray.
 
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Berry Greene

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Jimmy Oz has a good point. A specific idiosyncratic ID makes sense.
Bruce A. It seems to me that all history is so dark in places that we have a need to gloss over much of it. This obsession with revenge for distant past wrongs isn't very healthy IMHO. Schoolteacher's grandstanding with propaganda is something of an abuse. Talking down to kids ought to be easy for any adult to do. Not much original thinking needed for their elevated brain power in order to do that is there?
In fact my interest in Horology stems in large part from my need to escape the horrors of human reality. It does me good to see within mechanical timepieces the human spirit of uplifting endeavour preserved in some way when so much is quickly lost to the ravages of - er - time. Isn't it a bit special to see something put together 100 + years ago still in action long after all concerned are usually forgotten? I think so. I feel as if I am honouring their existence and endeavour. Its harder to do the same for the Sheep farmer but in reality he was even more important. Ah but less interesting.
I was intending to say something about scruffy soldering mentioned above. The fact that it can go badly wrong in the hands of some leads me to ask you all if there is a place here for modern adhesives. Locktite; JB Weld; Araldite; etc. What are your views on the use of these in Horology? I think this is a legitimate subject for this thread.....?
Rgds, BerryG
 

Bruce Alexander

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Bruce A. It seems to me that all history is so dark in places that we have a need to gloss over much of it. This obsession with revenge for distant past wrongs isn't very healthy IMHO
Berry,

It's not a matter of "Revenge". It's a matter of true understanding of how the legacy of Slavery affected, and still affects life in America for every American. Suffice it to say that History which has been "glossed over" can create or perpetuate false narratives. The Jewish people strive mightily to make sure that the Holocaust is never forgotten. That hasn't stopped the creation of Neo Nazi organizations and Holocaust denial. Imagine how much worse it could be if the Holocaust was swept under the rug. To go into any depth would take us far off topic and into conversations which have no place here.

Hall of Shame indeed.

Regards,

Bruce
 
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shutterbug

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I was intending to say something about scruffy soldering mentioned above. The fact that it can go badly wrong in the hands of some leads me to ask you all if there is a place here for modern adhesives. Locktite; JB Weld; Araldite; etc. What are your views on the use of these in Horology? I think this is a legitimate subject for this thread.....?
Rgds, BerryG
Because most of them are reversible, I don't have a real issue with their use. Bushings changed our methodology, and stuff like Loctite might do the same. It's probably better than low melting point solder ;)
 
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Bruce Alexander

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I routinely use Loctite 680 with all press-fit bushings. Anything can be mis-used. One can use the wrong tool or material for the job. One can improvise whether they know best practices or not. I think it's best to focus on results in this Thread and stay away from judging the person who did the work. It's also helpful if one posts what they did (or plan to do) in order to reverse and correct the problem. That's usually my intent when posting here. I know a number of folks, whose opinions I respect, do not like this Thread because they view it as judgmental and derogatory towards other people. I understand and respect that opinion even as I've argued that the Thread should remain as is. It can serve to educate and motivate others while having a little fun. Kind of a "Nailed It" approach I guess.
 

Berry Greene

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Bruce - No arguments from me on anything you said on either topic. I'm here to learn not pronounce at all. In any case one never knows the pressures that applied at the moment. Its easier to take up a definite position - if you can afford to, - or are highly principled. That's not always quite so easy.
I'm glad about the Loctite admission because I have used it in the same way and the thread-locker too. There is also the whole issue of job satisfaction and peace of mind that good or best work has been applied. It all relates to that elusive truth doesn't it? What I like about clocks and indeed my career in electronics, was that lies and deceit don't really get you very far and its much easier to measure. "Yeah yeah but does it work?" Rgds BerryG
 
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RJSoftware

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Reality keeps changing slow
so the suspicious can't tell.
 
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