Clock stops

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by bangster, Sep 5, 2019.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I have this here Ingraham deadbeat, strip pallet, that is not behaving. It will run for a few seconds, maybe quite a few seconds, and then quit. When it quits, the pallet isn't locked on a tooth; it rocks back and forth a bit while the EW stands still.

    When it stops, the EW tooth is hovering over the impulse face of the entrance pallet; on the exit side, the tooth is hovering over the back side of the exit pallet.

    IN OTHER WORDS, when it stops for no reason, it stops in mid-cycle when there's no EW contact with either pallet. So apparently the EW stops of its own accord, with no help from the pallets. This isn't connected to any particular segment of the EW; it can be anywhere.

    Got any ideas what's going on? I'll try to supply a video, but meanwhile does the above description suggest anything to y'all?
     
  2. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    3,702
    349
    83
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Sounds like a sudden loss of power. Maybe there is a meshing problem somewhere high in the train or a bent pivot? Remove the verge and do the slow run test with minimal power to the mainspring. See if there is any irregularity in the movement of the escape wheel while the train is barely running.

    Uhralt
     
    fbicknel and leeinv66 like this.
  3. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #3 bangster, Sep 5, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
    It's only wound a few turns. Still has the C-restraints on the mainsprings. I'll give it more power and see if it does anything different.

    ===========
    (Later) Didn't help.
     
  4. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,836
    319
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    When it locks up, with a pair of tweezers, work your way down from the Escape Wheel to the Great Wheel to see which gears are still under power. Those without power will exhibit side to side "end" shake. The last one with power will help pinpoint where things are binding.
     
    fbicknel likes this.
  5. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,225
    498
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    What has been done to this movement during repair? What was the original reason for working on the movement?

    RC
     
  6. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    RC: It came in to replace a broken strike mainspring. No service or repair, other than that was done except oiling. I don't recall whether the time side was running when it came in.

    TAT: T4 is without power. Which suggests that T3 may be the culprit. Right?
     
  7. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,836
    319
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    That's how I would interpret it bangster.
    T-4 doesn't have any power so T-3 is either binding somewhere or T-2/T-3 is binding.

    Bent or binding Pivot, Bent Arbor, Bent Tooth/Teeth and/or Pinion(s) could be culprits.

    If you can't see any problems that far down into the gear train, I think I might try Uhrait's suggestion. Mark teeth if necessary.

    If that doesn't help to identify the problem, you may need to disassemble and inspect. Try manually running gear pairs. Eventually you'll have to do that anyway to address the problem of course.

    Is what I think.
     
    fbicknel likes this.
  8. fbicknel

    fbicknel Registered User

    Apr 14, 2017
    131
    11
    18
    Male
    Cumming, GA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If it hasn't been disassembled recently, it seems possible that oiling it dislodged a bit of goo in the pivot and it's become a problem that wasn't before.

    Is it possible the mainspring is dried-or-gooed to where it doesn't provide enough power? Does it run if you manually help it at T3?

    I like Urhalt's suggestion to remove the verge. The small number of clocks I've worked on have let me add the verge last, so removing it without dislodging all the wheels is possible on those. Not sure if yours would allow that, of course. (No Ingrahams in my shop/under my belt yet.)
     
  9. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,225
    498
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Bangs, in case you are not aware, Ingrahams are just as bad as Gilberts about cracking cannon pinions, so that's one thing to check. I would treat this one like any other clock that comes in not running - Take it apart, clean it, inspect each part, look for bent pivots, check the wheels in pairs for end shake and smooth rundown when spun. If you still have the spring clamps on, make sure they are not rubbing any of the wheels or arbors.

    RC
     
  10. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Bob: I would need the agreement of the owner to do that, since I won't do it for free. I took it in as mainspring replacement, not a full clean and service. If something happened to T3 while I had the plates apart, it's not because of anything I did to it.

    I'll see what I can find before splitting the plates again. It may be something simple. If not, we're looking at a new work order/
     
  11. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,225
    498
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If you are saying that you broke down this clock and replaced the spring and didn't take time to clean it and check the pivots while it was apart, well I think you are inviting trouble and wasting time in the long run. Now you are spending more time tracking down a problem than it would have taken to clean and inspect the clock while it was apart. Could be dislodged crap got into some pivot holes or God only knows what. These freebie jobs for friends are something I try to avoid. When I take a job like replacing a spring that requires disassembling the movement I make it clear up front that I won't do anything unless the clock is cleaned and the pivots serviced and bushings installed where needed while it is apart. Friends are friends and business is business and like oil and water the two don't usually mix very well. I say fix it right or don't fool with it at all. I would recommend that, knock it down again and do a proper inspection and cleaning and if there is a serious problem inform the owner what the cost will be, otherwise just fix it and write it off as a learning experience and the cost of keeping a friend. I just can't understand why anyone would take a clock apart and put it back together without cleaning it. Perhaps I'm missing something here?

    RC
     
    Arthur Cagle and fbicknel like this.
  12. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Good point. And normally if I'm going to open up a movement, I'll recommend the full service as long as it's apart.
    To my chagrin, I didn't do it here. Working on the cheap. But I may do as you suggest, and expect him to go along after the fact. Let's see what I discover.

    As a side point, I'm finally able to get into my work room after a month of being shut out. Water leak, water damage, everything moved out, carpet torn out, sections of drywall cut away, etc. It's still in process of being healed, but at least I'm able to get to the bench.:confused:
     
  13. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,293
    629
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I'll just state my opinion Bangs. When you take a job, you can't restrict yourself to the owners expectations. You either take the job to fix it, or you pass on it. When the clock needs a full service, either do it or pass. That's what I think ;)
     
    Arthur Cagle, fbicknel and DeweyC like this.
  14. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yep, you and RC have chastened me, so I'm going back and doing it right. It's shucked down, everything USed, bushings look good, pegged out and smooth-broached, today I'll get onto the pivots, check wheels for damage, get her back together and see if she'll keep running.
     
    Arthur Cagle likes this.
  15. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,836
    319
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    We let no good deed go unpunished. :)
    Us 'Mericans do like the prospect of getting something for nothing.
    "Free!" advertising seems to get us all the time, but enough of that.
    Please let us know what you discover bangster.
    Regards,
    Bruce
     
  16. tom427cid

    tom427cid Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 23, 2009
    1,573
    67
    48
    Cabinetmaker,clock repair
    Moultonborough,NH
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Ditto here.
    Every now and then I get roped into this sort of deal. I have learned that generally I have to do it twice. First "on the cheap" then do it right. Years ago I almost lost my job when the boss was complaining I took to long---I answered with a question, "how come we never have time to do it right but we ALWAYS have time to do it over?
    Today if a customer tells me "Well, it just needs this or that and that should cost only X$." I hand them their clock and politely inform them that they know far more than I do and they should do the job themselves.
    Most see the light, those that don't-well, really didn't want them for a customer anyway.
    Just my .02
    tom
     
    fbicknel likes this.
  17. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,836
    319
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    ...swipe....I'm going to remember that, Tom! I've already got someone in mind. Thanks! :)
     
  18. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    What's this Previously known as "Time After Time" bidness?
     
  19. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,836
    319
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hey bangster,

    Some member created an account with the name "TimeafterTime". He's been on the message board since 2016 but he hasn't been very active. I've only just recently noticed one of his posts and even I was confused for a moment!
    I didn't remember posting in that Thread! :?| :}:screwball:

    He's an NAWCC Member and I don't think there was any intent on his part to "Steal" my Screen Name. The System registered two different strings of characters. No harm, no foul.

    In order to keep things simple, I just decided to change my screen name. I put the "Previously known...." signature in to let folks know that I'm not trying to hide from my previous misdeeds. :chuckling:

    Regards,

    Bruce
     
  20. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    AHA! Hiding from your previous misdeeds!:emoji_grimacing:
     
  21. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,836
    319
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    :)
     
  22. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #22 bangster, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    Alas! the problem persists.

    What was done: Cleaned all parts in the US. Checked bushings, all OK. Pegged them out with solvent, then smooth broached them. Filed and polished pivots, none of them were bent, none seriously worn. All wheels looked OK, no out-of-step teeth.
    Straightened tips of EW teeth. Back together, oiled, moved EW a hair away from the pallets. Result: it will run a very few ticks and then stop, with teeth not resting on pallets, pallets rocking.

    I say a power problem, but I'm baffled how to isolate it. Each wheel HAS power to it. T4 is pushing on EW, T3 is pushing on T4, T2 is pushing on T3. Rock any of them backward, and it springs forward from supplied power. With pallets disengaged, turn the EW forward by hand and it drives the train as far as I can detect. (Motion of T2 to small to detect.) There's power there, but not enough to drive the train. The clamp is still on the mainspring, but it's let down enough to provide plenty of power. With the verge removed, it runs like a buzz saw.

    The alternative is instead of a power problem, it's an escapement problem (locks, drops, etc.) but I don't see how anything down there could produce these symptoms.

    There's no doubt something I'm missing; but I surely am missing it. :banghead:

    Y'all got any thoughts? :?|
    :glasses:
     
  23. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,836
    319
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    bangster, you do come up with some baffling enigmas. Is this just to test us?
    You write...
    but you described the problem as...

    Does that sum it up properly of have I left out something?

    If the EW has power and is not binding I don't understand how that condition could exist.

    The power would flow from T-4 to E.W. to the Verge.

    When it locks or binds up as you describe, are all gears in the Time Train still under power? :???:
     
  24. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 13, 2011
    5,430
    472
    83
    oakland, ca.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    video, pls... with audio so we can here what’s going on.

    in the meantime.... crutch slot too tight? try a different suspension spring? a different bob?
     
  25. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #25 bangster, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
    Before I moved the EW, it wouldn't run at all.
    I know that what I've described is counterintuitive, but it is what it is. There appears to be power all the way up to T4, but it's not driving the EW.
    One fact that I did not mention. After I adjusted the EW, it seemed to be running OK. I stopped it and laid it down to oil it. After that it was as described above. If you think I should fiddle with the EW spacing some more, I can do it. But I'd like to have a reason why. Maybe I'll fiddle with it anyway.

    I'll try to provide videos with sound tomorrow.
     
  26. peanuts

    peanuts Registered User

    Mar 21, 2017
    340
    31
    28
    Male
    Retired
    Shaftesbury, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Some kind of binding in the motion works, or between the hands?
     
  27. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Motion works. Or great wheel. That's what it's beginning to sound like. And often enough when that happens--and it's happened to me--it's a bad tooth. I have carefully inspected any number of wheels only to find that they have spontaneously suffered tooth decay, which is another way of saying that I didn't do a careful inspection. This sort of thing doesn't improve as we age.

    What you might wish to do is tell the customer that there will be a considerable delay. Then put the clock aside for several weeks and do other things. If there's a complaint from the customer tell him that you'll give him a loaner antique clock so that life can be sustained. Usually that shuts them up.

    I appreciate, however, the observation that Ingrahams crack cannon pinions as enthusiastically as Gilberts. I didn't know that, and I'll watch for it on this accursed Ingraham steel-plate close-out special I've been reviving. Miserable thing simply won't give up.

    Mark Kinsler
     
  28. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,836
    319
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I'm not trying to be a PITA bangster, but just to be clear, when you say that you're adjusting the EW, I assume that you are adjusting the depth of the escapement by moving the Verge, is that right? If so, are you increasing the distance between the EW and Verge, or decreasing it?

    You stated that you laid the movement down to oil it and it started to exhibit its "Bad Clock!" behavior again. Is there end-shake on all gears and verge? When you flip the movement over a time or two, do all arbor shoulders fall to the bottom plate freely?

    Good idea peanuts. When this has been the case with me, putting slight clockwise pressure on the minute hand gives a "jolt" of energy to the gear train. What about that bangster?

    :chuckling:
     
  29. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,836
    319
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I was just re-reading the thread and saw...
    ...an answer to one of my previous questions...never mind on that one bangster

    Better make sure the loaner is a beater or they'll consider it an even trade in! :)
     
  30. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    40,293
    629
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    Iowa
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I think I'd remove the verge and see what the train is doing. Use your thumb to start and stop it periodically while powered from the mainspring. It that's all quickly responsive, the problem may well be in the verge. If it's sluggish without the verge in place, you might have a problem from a previous repairman in the bushing placement.
     
  31. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    3,702
    349
    83
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Maybe one of the wheels in the upper train has an arbor with a shoulder that isn't straight but coned so it may bind inside the bushing? I'm considering this because the problem came back when you laid down the movement to oil it. Look closely at the shoulders between arbor and pivot, starting with the EW.

    Uhralt
     
    fbicknel likes this.
  32. wow

    wow Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 24, 2008
    3,461
    141
    63
    Male
    Retired Music Minister
    Pineville, La. (central La.)
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Plates bent? These American movements can easily have a slight bend somewhere in the plate causing a bind somewhere in the train.
     
  33. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,225
    498
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    A couple things come to mind. First is like what Uhralt described in post #31 - if you have a tapered pivot especially at the EW it might bind when the arbor is against one plate or the other. With power let down, lay the clock on its back and firmly lift and release the EW. It must drop back promptly under its own weight. Now turn the movement onto it face and do the same thing. While you are about it, do the same test on all the wheels. Next, with all power let down, move the main wheel back and forth and observe each pivot in its pivot hole. You need to be able to see some side to side movement of the pivot in the hole - not a lot but clearly perceptible.

    If the going train has power up to the EW but the EW does not turn and you are sure that the pallets are not touching the EW, then something is causing the EW to resist turning, or you simply do not have enough power getting to T4. If the pallets are not in contact with the EW the immediate problem is not with the escapement.

    I assume that you now only have the time train parts in place, so remove the motion works parts and see what happens.

    Did you check for a cracked cannon pinion?

    Did you check that the spring retaining clip is not pressing against the T2 arbor?

    Still have the problem - assemble just T2 through the EW and spin T2 by hand and mark where each gear stops several times both standing up and laying down on the front and back.

    Where are the pictures? You admonish others to post pictures but I don't see any here.

    RC
     
  34. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,836
    319
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    That's exactly what I was getting at in post #28 Uhrait. :thumb:
    It sure sounds like that could be a real possibility to me bangster. Be certain to check the Minute Arbor closely too.
     
  35. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    CURIOUSER AND CURIOUSER --Alice

    Went down to work room to make the promised video. Decided to fiddle with the movement a bit first. Started pendulum and was as before: tick for a short while and just stop. Tried a little finger pressure on T3 to increase power. It worked. That is, it ran more strongly, but after a bit it just stopped as before, even with the increased power. Wouldn't start with further increased power: had to start the pendulum. When stopped with increased power, T3 was locked: no slack either way.

    Set it up on a little stand to take the video. Started pendulum, expecting it to stop in a few seconds It didn't…just kept on ticking. Camera battery was low, so I went upstairs to charge it for a while. Came back down and…the thing was still running.
    Had been running for 45 minutes and counting. Still running when I came upstairs to upload the video and type this.

    Made the video, but having trouble downloading it, so you don't get it until tomorrow.

    Meanwhile you got any comment on this queer development? :?|
     
  36. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,225
    498
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If you didn't change anything, the problem isn't fixed.

    RC
     
  37. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I'm certain you're right. But that alone gives me no direction to follow next. To repeat: The only thing I did was raise the movement from the edge of the bench and situate it on a little stand/platform to raise it up for picture taking. Well, in the course of moving it I laid it on its back for a minute, then stood it back up and put it on the stand.

    You say "the problem isn't fixed". But do you have any wisdom as to what might have happened to make it APPEAR to be fixed? None of this makes any sense to me at all. Stuff just happens. I'm out of guesses as to what to do now.
     
  38. wow

    wow Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 24, 2008
    3,461
    141
    63
    Male
    Retired Music Minister
    Pineville, La. (central La.)
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    :banghead:The only thing different is the little stand you moved it to. What was it on before?
    Different mount........:mallet:
     
  39. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 4, 2008
    3,702
    349
    83
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Sounds more and more like what I suggested in post #31. It may take some time for a coned arbor shoulder to get stuck in a bushing. It also depends on if the movement is plumb upright or a bit tilted to the front or the back.

    Uhralt
     
    fbicknel likes this.
  40. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,836
    319
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yep. Sounds like something is binding/unbinding when you move the clock to a horizontal position. Perhaps a tapered pivot or similar situation. It should be an easy condtion to confirm or rule-out as has been detailed above. I agree with others and would be very hesitant to turn this one loose as is. It probably will come back to bite you. if the clock is running, a video isn't going to help us. If it is stalled, the video will probably only demonstrate what you've been describing to us.
     
  41. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,225
    498
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Has it had any bushing work?
    Did you check end shake?
    When it runs how much swing does it have?
    Did you check for clearance in the crutch foot at all possible leader positions?
    I agree, a coned pivot is a real possability. Clamp in a micrometer and see if it makes contact along the whole pivot.

    RC
     
    Jaap likes this.
  42. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    2,790
    224
    63
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I'm having similar weirdness with my old friend, the Steel Plate Ingraham.

    This clock won't give up and run. Just this afternoon I had it running out of its case, at least for a while, at which time it started striking, and striking, and striking. More than that, it was striking when it should have just been doing its warning run. The diagnosis was that a pin had inexplicably fallen out of the fourth strike wheel.

    But it stops intermittently. I'm letting it run without the pendulum and I've marked the gear positions when it stops. Further details as conditions warrant.

    M Kinsler
     
  43. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    No bushing work.
    Yes end shake.
    Healthy swing
    Didn't study crutch foot
    Noticeably coned pivot would have shown up when I dressed them.

    Here's pics.

    Mvt on little stand on bench. At edge of stand, pendulum hanging over the edge. Before, it was on the edge of the bench.
    Mvt 1.jpg

    Setup: assembly legs, weight on them. Very handy for quick testing.
    mvt 2.jpg
    Clock still running 6 hours later.
     
  44. tom427cid

    tom427cid Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 23, 2009
    1,573
    67
    48
    Cabinetmaker,clock repair
    Moultonborough,NH
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Bang,
    One thing that I noticed was not mentioned (unless of course I missed it) even though no bushings were installed and the issue seems to be on the upper end of the time side. Particularly when I have installed bushings I always use an oil sink cutter and break the edge of the back side of the bush. Seems that sometimes the shoulder of the pivot will bind on the plate and cause a problem like you are describing.
    I apologize for suggesting splitting the plates- sometimes it's the only way.
    Hope this helps.
    tom
     
    Bruce Alexander likes this.
  45. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,836
    319
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #45 Bruce Alexander, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
    When did you fully remove the C-Rings from the Mains bangster?

    At several times in your testing you mention that the restraints were still in place...

    I assume that the clamps weren't hanging off the Mains like socks on a Rooster. Is it possible that the clamp might have been interfering with something? The.Minute or 2nd Gear? I'm just trying to imagine why laying the movement back to a horizontal position would make the issue disappear. That does suggest the binding is on the front plate (wheels falling back)

    Before your disassembly, you reported to us that there was a fall off of power at T-4. After your servicing, that issue completely disappeared but the stall problem persisted briefly. If the Verge just stalled showing no contact with the Escape Wheel, the power was blocked somewhere in the Gear Train. I can imagine no other reason for that behavior at the Escapement. No energy to "escape"...

    Are/were all of the Strike components free to move?. Is/was the minute hand bound up when the Going Train stopped going?

    It will be difficult to track down the problem if it has disappeared but I would test this movement for a very long time. At least a month (2 weeks on test stand/2 weeks in the case) before I would even consider returning it to the owner. If it does stall again, look but don't touch. Definitely don't lay it back down. Test each wheel back to the mainsprings again...including the minute arbor and motion works If still no sign of the problem, I would advise the owner of the intermittent issue so that if it does reappear, he will have been forewarned. You may even want him to know why you're conducting an extended test period. If he is not surprised, he should be less critical if it pops back up unexpectedly.

    I'm out of ideas on this one bangster. I'll be watching and will let it "rattle around" in my skull...o_O

    Good luck with it,

    Bruce

    Edit: If you have the plates separated again as per Tom's suggestion, check alignment of front/back plate pivot holes. Perhaps do a very slight bit of broaching with the narrow end of the broach in the opposite pivot hole/bushing...and triple check for a slight bend in one of the pivots. As a matter of fact, triple check everything. :cop:
     
  46. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,225
    498
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #46 R. Croswell, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
    Yes, something was missed. I wouldn't broach any of the pivot holes larger for two reasons: first, if there are no bushings installed the holes already have parallel sides, second, they are already the factory correct size plus accumulated wear. But yes do slightly chamfer the ends of the pivot holes if there is any sign of a burr.

    Here are two more things to look at (see photos). If the verge retainer isn't parallel to the plate the toe of the retainer can rub the saddle. Also if the retainer isn't flat the curved side edges can rub the verge, and especially so if the verge pin is too short or if the saddle legs have been spread to shift the verge to avoid ruts.

    The pendulum leader must not contact the end of the crutch loop as it appears to be doing in this photo. That will quickly stop a clock, especially if the movement is at all tilted forward or backward.

    Other than above, I say knock it down again and check each wheel, and each of wheels, and each pivot.

    Can we see a video close up of the escapement action?

    RC

    Mvt 1a.jpg mvt 2a.jpg
     
  47. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
    9,225
    498
    83
    Male
    Trappe, Md.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Well here's one more thing that hasn't been mentioned. If this movement has lantern pinions, especially on the escape wheel arbor, look for two things; a bent lantern trundle, and badly or even moderately worn trundles where one of more have rotated such that at random times the wear on one has rotated "inside" while wear on the next one is in contact with the driving tooth. In effect causing the spacing between trundles to act unequal. Of course a bent trundle or bent tooth anywhere will cause a problem.

    Did you check the cannon pinion for cracks?

    RC
     
  48. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

    Apr 15, 2005
    8,271
    68
    48
    Male
    Loxahatchee, Florida
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    high speed test is magical.

    Remove anchor, oil pivots, stick screwdriver in ew, wind tight, pull screwdriver, let er rip..!

    Examine arbors, blurry is bent. High speed accuracy is better under lens.
    Examine sounds, pops and clicks, bad mesh. timing sounds reveals which gear.
    Examine endshake, hold different angles. Does one side up/down run better?
    Examine pivot binding. Does squeezing plates togethdr with finger pressure cause stoppage?
    Examine speed. Fully winded should send ew screaming. If slow and draggy somebodies mesh is too tight.

    Yes, the high speed test is magical.

    Rj
     
    fbicknel likes this.
  49. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
    Sponsor NAWCC Brass Member

    Feb 22, 2010
    5,836
    319
    83
    Male
    Retired, not tired
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Okay, I've taken a bunch of "snippets" here so hopefully I haven't missed something important.

    One would expect possible damage to the Strike Train not the Time Train but I suppose there could have been collateral damage.

    I added the italics. When you smooth-broached the pivot holes/bushings did you do so in such a way as to ensure parallel IDs from front to rear plate?

    In that case, I would expect that the problem had to be in the transfer of power from T4 to EW, or binding of the EW pivots or arbor shoulder. If the EW has power and is free to turn, its teeth would engage one of the verge pallets. That is inescapable.

    Yes RC, thank you. You make a very good point but bangster did smooth broach. Some folks are fairly aggressive when they do so, enough to "work harden" the ID of the Bushings/Pivot Holes.

    I should have asked this before, bangster, what do you seek to do when you smooth broach, and how do you go about it?

    The no verge, free-wheeling test proposed by SB and again by RJ may "speed along" a diagnosis. I don't see how it could hurt anything.
     
  50. bangster

    bangster Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 1, 2005
    19,103
    295
    83
    utah
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thanks, fellers, for your readiness to help me with this problem. I'll digest all your proposals, and then do something.
    One mistake: it's the time mainspring that was replaced. Don't see how that's relevant.
     

Share This Page