Clock repair rates and waits

[nutmegtinker]

I have been collecting and restoring clocks for less than a year. I have gained enough knowledge to clean, oil and adjust a typical weight driven clock. I have also learned when something is out of my skill level. My question for the members of this forum is whether my experience with repairers is typical in terms of back logs and repair rates. I live in the metro NY area, about one hour from Manhattan. I began with an 1830's woodworks clock that I never got running reliably though I learned to disassemble, reassemble and troubleshoot. I turned it over to one of the recognized experts in this who warned me that he is only successful with this type of repair (escape wheel arbor and pinion replacement) about 50% of the time. I accept that since I trust his judgement and he has charged a reasonable rate in the past. I also accept that he may not get to it for a few months. I have also had a local clock repairer refuse to work on a clock that he judged would never be economically recoverable. That was a TO mid 19thC serpentine Vienna regulator. I put that one aside for the day when I might have the skills to resurrect it myself or, find a suitable complete works replacement. Most recently, I acquired a ST#2 that was running with a well restored case. It seemed to have a low amplitude swing, was out of beat and a twisted pendulum (not perpendicular to the case). I acquired this locally for a very reasonable price but, was reluctant to tackle the repairs myself since the clock is valuable in the market. My local clock repairer said he could not take it in until 6 months from now and a refurbishment would cost $650. I thanked him and took it home. This motivated me to dissassemble and clean it myself. I replaced the suspension spring which was rusted and noted that the pallets were grooved. I left them alone for now since it would mean more than just polishing. I put it back in beat and it now has a more healthy amplitude and keeps good time.

Are my experiences typical and am I approaching this the right way for my skill level?

 

[bruce linde]

i'm not sure if you're asking about approach, costs, excessive turnaround times, or what... can you pls clarify?

also... "my skill level"... not sure what that is... do you have lathe? do you do bushings? if so, how? repivoting? ever put a slipper on a pallet? are you ok with spring-driven movements as well as weight-driven? when you cleaned the ST2 movement... exactly how did you clean it? do you have an ultrasonic? do you clean and degrease parts before putting them in the ultrasonic?

doing this stuff right takes time. professionals get paid for their time... and bring experience and know-how to their work. $650 seems like a lot to me for a #61 (ST2) movement, but that's because i've been working on/with them for ten years. that said, i'm a hobbyist not a pro... there are still things i would ask my clock mentor to do if needed (i.e., closing pallets, etc.). still, having it done right by a pro is going to result (usually/hopefully) in better results and (definitely) a higher cost. i could see someone spending an entire day... and maybe more... dealing with all possible issues. if we call it 8-12 hours all in (including communications, hand-offs, invoicing and actual work) i would ask what you do/did for a living and how much you get/got paid per hour... and then map that to 8-12 hours. $50/hr for an experienced clock repair person seems not unreasonable to me.

but, wait... there's more.

i've met quite a few clock repair guys. with some, the longer they've been doing it, the less excited they tend to be... sometimes biasing judgements toward 'that's good enough... not worth going whole hog.' otoh, there are those who go the other way and will only do the job if they can re-do everything absolutely the way it's supposed to be done because they've learned that things left anything less than right will come back to haunt them.... those guys charge a lot.

the MB has allowed me access to the information i need to support and maintain my clock habit... enabling and sustaining my passion for clocks.

btw... there is a shop near me that has a three-year waiting list and is not cheap.

 

[glenhead]

Yup.

Start messing with something. Find things that are wrong. Fix some of them and seek help and advice for the things you can't do yet. Go to something else. Repeat again and again, learning along the way and adding to your skills and confidence.

If you're teaching yourself how to do things you have to be willing to take risks. If you're also willing to admit your limitations and seek advice and help when you have to, you can be far more daring with trying new things. It sounds to me like you're on a very wise and reasonable trajectory. You've already discovered that a clock is a clock, right? That #2 is a scary beast, but only because of its reputation for being A Really Desirable Clock. Other than that, it's just a clock. Sure, there are techniques you'll need to learn for the proper method for fixing this and that, but those will come. While you're researching how to restore the pallet surfaces you'll be able to bask in the glow of "Hey, I fixed that!"

I started off twelve years ago with Bulova 5AD watch movements, the ladies' movements that are about the size of a dime. I bought a dozen or so of them from eBay sellers. Yeah, I mangled the bejeebers out of a couple of hairsprings early on, but I set them aside and focused on learning the things I didn't destroy. That gave me the confidence to try and grow. I'm incredibly fortunate in that there are a bunch of extremely talented watchmakers and clockmakers in my area, and we all belong to a Guild. Every one of them is more than happy to answer questions or un-dork something I dorked up. I eventually reached the point that I was able to fix the hairsprings I'd mangled on those 5ADs, and my daughter now has a whole stable of them to choose from for her daily-wear watches. I'm to the point now that I'll take on anything and know there's little chance I won't be able to fix it. If I run into something that stumps me, I call on my buddies and other resources. Don't be afraid to admit you don't know something or when you're wrong about something - there's nothing more delicious than getting to learn and fill in a gap in the old knowledge base.

Enjoy the journey.

Glen

 

[POWERSTROKE]

I’ve seen cuckoo clocks that were repaired by guys in business 40-50 years. Hideous work. I received a clock from the 60s with a Baduf movement. The bushing work was questionable. Both chainwheels in the rear were bushed. Nothing above that. I’ve personally done well over 200 cuckoo clocks and never seen a on day movement wear the chainwheels out before the 2nd wheels. I’ve seen where they both had wear, but not this way. I took the movement apart, cleaned it and polished the pivots, put it together and oiled it. I ran the clock manually through the hours and all was fine. Next morning the strike weight was still at the top. Took it apart. (I’m extremely careful when taking apart and putting these back together by the way.) I went to my spare parts pile and realized that the lever that is lifted by the hour 1/2 hour cam was too closed. These are stamped steel and they don’t get bent on their own. I asked the lady when she picked it up. (In her 60s and this was her grandmothers) she said, I don’t want to say anything, but it never worked correctly after I received it back. I went back a couple times and it wasn’t resolved. She’s happier than a kid In a candy store now.
The point of my story is that, a lot of these guys that charge 2-3 times more than me are obviously incompetent and have no business charging their rates. How did this ever leave his shop? How did he have the nerve to charge her? I’d rather work for 1/2 price and get all the customers than do shoddy work for triple the price.

 

[Altashot]

My shop is about 6-8 months behind.
A lot of clocks come through here, so this is pretty typical for my shop.
During slow times, I can catch up a bit but the wait time never goes lower than 4 months.
I am not the only one in this city but upon discussions with the others, it appears that I am the busiest.

The price you were quoted seems a bit high, but no knowing what it needed, it might be justified. The local market can shape the prices too. In my area, the labour rates are high and without much competition, we can charge accordingly. I am in good terms with the other clock repair shops around here as I often help them out with parts or services and we are essentially all on par with our prices.
We’re all playing the same game, might as well play in the same park.

I am one of those that fixes everything or not at all. I’ve seen some pretty shoddy work and I swore I’d never do that. I have a very low return rate, and when it happens, 3 out of 4 times, it’s user error. I do make mistakes occasionally however. Those are put back on the bench immediately and dealt with promptly.

once I divide what I charged by time spent, it hovers around $100/hr. This is gross, not net.
Having my shop at home and being the sole proprietor means that my overhead is very low so I retain about 60%, which is a very high profit margin for any businesses and this is where I draw my pay cheque. Now, If I had an employee, I could offer a faster turnaround, but if I paid that person a decent living wage, and of course I would, that person would earn more than me.

Businesses don’t run themselves, it’s a fine balancing act and it’s not always easy.

M.

 

[nutmegtinker]

Thanks for all the feedback. I was certainly not begrudging anyone the right to earn a decent living doing a highly skilled trade. I think you have confirmed that my experience is typical and that I should continue to pursue my clock hobby as I have with the help of members like you. I will continue to try fixing things and making mistakes as I learn. I will also hand something over to a professional if justified.

 

[matthiasi]

I've been repairing clocks since just before I was ten years old. My father was a Master Clockmaker in Germany. I used to hang around and watch him repair clocks and watches and have some pics when I was 2-3 with me bashing (repairing....) clocks. Did my first one from A-Z, an antique English Tall case, 2-train just before I turned 10. Investigate-diagnose-repair-clean & overhaul... the works. Been doing them ever since, though not always for profit or full time.

I repair & overhaul / restore clocks from all over BC, including neighboring provinces. Used to get stuff from Idaho &WA states prior to Covid19 as well. 30% of my workload is fixing others' mistakes (mainly from so-called "Pro's"). I presently have around a 3year plus waiting list for my services. I do not "Overcharge" or try to take advantage, but find that my quotes often come in lower than from some of those whose work I end up having to fix / do over. Nothing beats having to re-overhaul something from someone else, where I find grease from the early 1900's, which had NEVER been cleaned & re-done, or broken / excessively worn parts that have never been adressed. Mainsprings that haven't seen "Fresh Air" since they were installed at the time of manufacture. Yea, adding "Fresh Oil & Grease" just doesn't take as long and is infinitely easier and more profitable than doing a job correctly.

I'd personally stay away from a shop that doesn't have a wait list. Mind you, simple repairs can be done relatively quickly and I not factor these in, as I generally do these as "Slide in's" between jobs or when I have a moment.

BTW - I personally know of a number of Colleagues in Germany who have 5 year plus waiting lists... and there are definitely more "trained" Pro's over in Europe.

 

[D.th.munroe]

Thats a good plan nutmegtinker this is a great site for help and learning.
I didn't get to start as young as you Matthiasi (I wish I had) my Dad was an Instrumentman in the US Navy when mechanical instruments were still being used, so I learned some from him but it wasn't enough for me and he passed before I really got into horology, so I kept studying by myself and learned alot from a bhi member who wanted me to replace him for our friend who owns a jewellery store and I've been doing this 20 years now.
I'm in BC as well, good to know I'm not the only one with a waitlist, I see alot of the same, although I think mine might be a bit more than 30% other peoples expensive repairs, similarly my prices usually end up lower than "the last guy"
Seriously who "Duncan Swishes" tubular bell movements and charges $1800?
My waitlist recently has creeped up to over a year now and people waiting after that.
It does seem in the last year people have been less patient with watches and some with clocks, even a couple weeks seem far far too long for them, and "well the last guy only took a week" most of these people are new to the area from the lower mainland and other more populated areas. I'm still not sure where they got their watches fixed so quickly and for such a low price in Vancouver.
Dan

 

[nutmegtinker]

Thank you for sharing your perspectives on this. I am in awe of the depth of experience of the members here.

 

[Richard.W]

Things I know to be true...

• Everyone learns in their own way and at their own pace.
• Purchasing good tools (used or new) speeds learning and enables adding new skills.
• There is no shame in failure. The sin is in refusing to try again.
• Wisdom and experience are the children of trial and error.
• My shipments from Timesavers never arrive fast enough.