clock plate damaged hole closing

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by dalesr, Dec 14, 2011.

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  1. dalesr

    dalesr Registered User

    Jan 4, 2009
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    I have an old dutch clock and when I removed the movement from the case I noticed the hole punches around the pivot holes. Most of the pivot holes were closed using clock hole punches. It also looks like it was bushed at a later date. The clock will need to be re-bushed on many of the pivot holes. How do I re-bush this clock?

    Attached is a picture of one of the pivot holes that were closed using clock hole punches. This pivot hole may have been rebushed too.
     

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  2. Thyme

    Thyme Banned

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    The bigger the hole, the bigger the bushing needed. :)
     
  3. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    #3 bangster, Dec 14, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2011
    This may help. Bushing using hand tools.
    In your case, the wear is on the side where the punches are, and very little filing may be needed before broaching.
     
  4. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    If the hole has already been re-bushed just knock out the old one and replace it, paying close attention to the finish on the pivot. No bushing there, re-bush in the usual manner, trying to go back as close as possible to the old centers. You and assume that a worn over hole has a pivot that need attention too.

    There is no practical way to erase the punch marks. Big bushings and plugs might be more obvious than the punch marks. I just chalk them up as a part of the clocks history.

    Willie X
    -> posts merged by system <-
    If the hole has already been re-bushed just knock out the old one and replace it, paying close attention to the finish on the pivot. No bushing there, re-bush in the usual manner, trying to go back as close as possible to the old centers. You and assume that a worn over hole has a pivot that need attention too.

    Willie X
     
  5. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    If it's a smooth plate, I'd fit a large enough bush to get rid of the marks, and use a bull's foot file to make it invisible; otherwise, bush as normal.
     
  6. dalesr

    dalesr Registered User

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    This was very helpful which leads me into another question. This is a weight driven 24 clock and running good. The pivot holes are worn especially around the main wheel. There is also alot of lubricant in the pivot holes. If I am not ready to bush this clock, can I use a lubricant other than clock oil to extend the life of the clock. For example, could I use Keystone Mainspring Lubricant on the main wheel pivot holes. I know this is not best practice but wondering if clock makers do this for customers sometimes to extend the life of the clock without a major overhaul. The logic is to run the clock until it stops and then a major overhaul will be required. This will save the customer some money right now. The customer is informed that a major repair will be required down the road once the clock stops.
     
  7. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    My opinion only, but trying to save your customer some money in the short term will cost you in the long term. When the clock stops a year from now, he's not going to remember that you said it would. He's going to remember that he brought it to you for repair and it stopped a year later. I always do a complete repair or nothing. Their choice. They don't go to their doctor for a band-aid.
     
  8. coldwar

    coldwar Registered User

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    Let's be completely clear in assessment of what your single blurry image suggests: This clock has NOT had purpose made closing hole punches used to close this hole in a repair attempt. What is seen here is a stamped oil control ring typical of factory produced clock movements, those most often seen such as yours being predominantly German. What is clear is the attempt to close the worn side of the pivot hole with a prick punch or really anything pointy and strong enough to sustain hammer blows, or a distant second possibility being the use of a sharpened spring loaded center punch. The term 'closing hole punch' used here to describe what is seen is fundamentally incorrect as no manufactured closing hole punch creates a flat bottom to the resultant oil control ring, and allowance of incorrect use of the tool description furthers this popular but 100% incorrect misnomer, also weighed against common nomenclature snobbery. The correct repair suggestions are not changed by correctly identifying what is seen, or against the chance a bushing has already been installed at this location: a correctly installed bushing spot faced on the wheel side of plate to plate height is the answer, for a repair or restoration. Best ~
     
  9. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    It took a bit for that to sink in, coldwar. I think the OP was referencing the holes made by the prick punch, and indicated that is was done to several holes, even though he only shows one.
     
  10. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Dale,

    You have a great question and a great photo of a problem I have often encountered. In fact, my Dad, who learned clock repair by talking to other repairmen, used a phonograph needle(very hard steel) mounted in a drilled-out punch just for that purpose. Many customers did not care about historical condition of their clocks. They simply wanted their clocks to run a while longer without spending much money on them. He would dunk and swish the movement in a cleaning solution, punch the bad bushings, and send them on their way, charging them very little.

    I have repaired some which were worse than the one you showed. I have had success using a large piece solid brass bushing wire, marking the center as Bang shows in his hand bushing instructions, and then drilling a bushing hole at that center point. The edges of the bushing can then be buffed smooth. I don't like leaving the punch marks, no matter what.

    Will
     
  11. Ray Fanchamps

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    Here are some old pics of a repair done to a nice 8 bell that had been punched.
    Some other interesting repairs too.
     

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  12. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    They didn't even bother to broach the hole after punching! Wow.
     
  13. dalesr

    dalesr Registered User

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    This was very educational for me. This clock was my grandfather's clock and he lived to 100 years and died many years ago. My mom now has this clock which was shipped from Holland. My parents were from Holland and came to this county in 1957. I am not sure how old this clock is but attached is a picture. The brass plates have many of those three hole punch marks to close the pivots. It was very education to find out that this clock had stamped oil control rings.

    The clock is running fine just had a broken tension spring for the hammer. I fixed that and now the clock dings. The chains are definitely showing their age. There were some large gaps in some of the links which I closed. It will definitely need new chains but not sure where to buy and how to determine the right chain for this movement.

    I will definitely follow the advice on this forum regarding bushing this clock and only use clock oil. I am not ready to tackle that yet. I am still a beginner and want to practice bushing on junk clocks first.
     

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  14. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    You could turn the chains around so that the stretched links are at the other end that doesn't bear the weight. I do this just about every time I work on one of these. You have to take the movement out again to reverse them.
    Your clock looks like a typical post WW11 Zaandam clock.
     
  15. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    It might be a fair guess to say that the clock was purchased around the time of your parents move, and came with them, or purchased after their arrival to remind them of home.
     
  16. dalesr

    dalesr Registered User

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    I will do that.
    Thanks! :)


     
  17. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    I guess someone has forgot to ask you if this is the only clock you wish to fix. If you want to use files and broaches and what not. Then do so at a risk of being off center. Or there are other means at a cost but it will involve you pocket book. I would not risk using some techniques on your first attempt at a clock such as yours. Plus allot of clocks punched in this manner have damage to the pivots. Your I can't tell, but you may need some pivot polishing too. Hum now maybe a lathe would help. Tools tools tools.

    H/C
     
  18. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Dale sez he'll practice on junk movements before attacking the Zaandam.

    :thumb:
     
  19. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I work at the Veritas Tools machine shop.
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    HC what makes you think doing a bushing job by hand is a bad thing, i have no machines such as a bushing machine and my clocks run well after a bushing job. Just seems you are putting this method down.
    Or am i mistaken in what you said here.:)
     
  20. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Never mind, Kevin. Many thousands of bushings have been installed by hand, with no adverse effects. And plenty have been botched, even by those using fancy machines. That's all we need to keep in mind.

    bangster
     
  21. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I work at the Veritas Tools machine shop.
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    So true Bang, you know it and i do.:):)
     
  22. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    As long as the hole is prepared for bushing, by filing the same distance in the opposite direction of the wear before broaching, there should be no problems doing it by hand.
     

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