clock listing red flags

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by bruce linde, May 29, 2017.

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  1. Les harland

    Les harland Registered User

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    Saying that avoids any awkward questions about it
    I'll bet they know exactly what it is worth
     
  2. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    He had "jumbo shrimp" for dinner?

    RM
     
  3. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    RARE typically means "I've never seen one like it, and I've seen several clocks!" :D
     
  4. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Sometimes... When I need a good laugh...
    I go to ebay and type in, "clock", then sort by price highest to lowest.
    There's a painting up, now that has a funny lede:
    "If Jeff Bezos can afford a 42 million dollar clock, he can buy my wife's painting."
     
  5. The Treasured Clock

    The Treasured Clock Registered User
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    Hi again fellow posters,
    Now I am getting back into this discussion again. "Rare," "mint," does that depend upon perception? Or, How objective are these terms are? "Rare" or "limited" may very well goes towards to the supply side. What about the demand, whether the people who want it or not? I don't know about mint condition of the item, maybe I have not seen it yet. I have even heard that every once in a while that you guys have gotten a product that has been broken, torn, or even ripped after it has been delivered.
    Jonathan Lee Jones
     
  6. mauleg

    mauleg Registered User
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    Now THAT kind of truth in advertising would be truly refreshing and an actual motivator to think about buying it.

    The majority of descriptions are completely useless; I ignore all superlatives, scan for what little substance may reside there and look for any humorous Engrish that I can post in this thread.
     
  7. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    :)

    If nothing else, it would be worth printing out to a pdf file for storage...
     
  8. CameraGuy32

    CameraGuy32 Registered User

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    Just saw this listing on FB Marketplace.
    Listed in New Hampshire as "One of the first Seth Thomas Clocks"
    Wonder if this one has the wooden gears?

    first.jpg
     
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  9. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    My recent favorite red flags are claims that certain cigar advertising clocks all emerged from a barn and were made for a small insignificant family owned cigar business in PA.

    RM
     
  10. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    #260 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Jul 27, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2019
    Not surprised.

    RM
     
  11. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    #261 Jim DuBois, Jul 27, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2019
    But they are now "novelty clocks" not advertising clocks. I guess that "horrible fakes" was a term already claimed by someone else? But they have the original shipping labels on them!
     
  12. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Horton would try to sell ice to eskimos...and most of the cubes would have a dead fly in them.

    Shocking, no, depressing, to see rubbish like this selling for those prices with the BS bogus "history" and provenance that accompanies them.

    Truly the "greater fool" theory at work.

    RM
     
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  13. Raymond Rice

    Raymond Rice Registered User
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    Jim, as I have posted before --those "shipping labels" were for sale on evilbay. I know, I bought one (purely for reference purposes).
    Ray Rice, ever the student of shams, scams, and con men.
     
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  14. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    I ended up inspecting several clocks out of their last "auction" first hand. Hortons that is. At least one of them was a bargain, a couple were OK, and a couple were pretty much a mess. The bargain turned out to be a rare version of less than common clock. Sometimes a camera will show defects not so easily seen by the naked eye, in other cases the camera may well hide a number of issues.

    Ray, I guess the applicable homily would be "none are so blind as those who refuse to see!"
     
  15. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    They are categorized as "Unusual & Novel", but generally speaking you are right.

    Here's a brief quote from the Condition Report on one of these things, "W E Haines & Sons Cigar Store Advertiser “King Carlos”, ca. 1925. This advertiser...".

    It would seem that Horton has "covered all the bases", so to speak, in their presentation.

    I guess you can't really blame a clock dealer for selling whatever is on the market and in demand. Evidently some folks like ice cubes with dead flies in them. You must admit, they're pretty novel. Wonder how they got the flies to drown themselves like that? Did they use sugar water? There certainly could NOT have been any vinegar involved. Wait, those aren't fruit flies are they?

    As Tom recently quoted: "Time flies like an Arrow, but Fruit Flies like a Banana!". :rolleyes: Horton and other Auctioneers like Money. No one goes into business to lose it.

    It's up to us to demand authenticity. What I find depressing is that the NAWCC may have been involved in lending legitimacy to these questionable artifacts. The Jury is still out, I suppose but thanks for sharing your opinions and expertise RM. If I were into Advertising Clocks, I would steer clear of these for now.
     
  16. woodlawndon

    woodlawndon Registered User
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    Just wanted to say thanks for you guys pointing stuff like this out. I wouldn't buy one of these clocks, I don't find them interesting whatsoever and wouldn't want one even if they were real. But it adds to my/our education about what to look at and think about when looking at old items.

    In the Horton's ad they even say the movement is a cheap Sessions 8-day. Why anyone would pay thousands for one of these mounted in cigar boxes is strange to me.

    Thanks for the education.
    Don
     
  17. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Sorry, absolutely NO justification.

    The buyer should expect an honest representation of an object from a reputable seller/auctioneer who is willing to stand behind what they sell. Period.

    A failure to do so only further hurts the business. People who have been badly "burned" often quickly lose interest and don't come back. I've seen it happen.

    I personally don't think the jury is still out. See some of the other numerous posts about those cigar clocks and especially this thread:

    I have proof the cigar advertising clocks sold at auction are real

    See in particular posting # 10 on that thread. IMCO, a verdict has been rendered.

    RE: flies in cubes:

    dead fly.jpg

    Thanks. I will try to be as honest as possible even when it may not be the popular view. That most certainly does not mean I'm always right. Be skeptical.

    Actually, some pretty expensive real advertising clocks are basically cheapo clocks like a Sessions box regulator which otherwise wouldn't be worth a tinkerer's flatulence except for a glass or dial. For example here's something I recently stumbled upon:

    calumet 1.jpg

    A nothing Sessions but the original glasses make it somewhat costly.

    By the way, many of these have "repop" glasses which look quite good because they are worth faking.

    Caveat emptor.

    RM
     
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  18. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    I have found that to be the case with Carroll Horton on previous transactions. I have returned items that I found were not accurately represented in the condition report for a full refund (including shipping). We are talking about auctions, here. That's a lot more than I expect, in general, from other auctioneers selling antique clocks. That's why I was disappointed to see these items up on their website. Perhaps I expect too little but as you say,

    I should not have even posted the link to start down this path since the auction is live.

    It just proves that these things are circulating in the Horological community.

    Regarding the Jury, I'm really hoping that some well-heeled collector submits one of these clocks to scientific scrutiny. I've followed your arguments and those who generally agree with you.

    As I mentioned, on the strength of those opinions I would stay away from any of these things if I were a collector of antique advertising clocks (which I am not). Plus, they look pretty hideous to me anyway. I would not want one in my collection.

    Regards,

    Bruce
     
  19. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Good of you to admit it. I have removed that post. Tsk.
     
  20. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Good. Hopefully you'll restore it when the auction is over since it does make an important point that these things are working their way through the Horological Collecting Community. Tsk Tsk on the NAWCC's complicity.
     
  21. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    #271 Bruce Alexander, Aug 1, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
    That Auction ended yesterday so perhaps you can take my post out of quarantine now, or was there something else wrong with it?

    While we're at it, perhaps you can provide some clarification since the Thread's subject is about Clock Listing Red Flags. We certainly don't want to put anyone's panties in a bunch.
     
  22. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Don't know if they've been sold or not Stevie.
    The links are to an ended auction.
    Still waiting on clear guidance from you by the way. I'm willing to bet that most of the entries in this Thread were posted while some sort of listing was active.
    You do whatever you think you gotta do but you can you own homework.
     
  23. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    rofl

    sorry.... i know i shouldn't be laughing, but this just made me spit my coffee all over my laptop.
     
  24. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Well, I don't know. It's Thursday, and I have Thursday things to do. And I need to worm the dog. And I need to declaw the cat. And my wife wants me to cut the vocal chords on that noisome parrot. And the bright 9-year old youngster across wants me to read Book 4 of the Aeneid with her. (She starts the Iliad next week.) And I am several episodes behind in my annual Leave it to Beaver marathon.



    And, I'm not sure I should be accommodating repeat offenders. But, I have it under advisement.

    If this is true, perhaps I should look into removing the entire thread retroactively. Besides, what more do we have to say about these benighted clocks that will not result in expressions of outrage and snorts of superiority?:D:eek:o_O:rolleyes:, etc.
     
  25. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    as far as i can tell, these clocks that bruce listed above are different clocks than those sold in detroit a couple months back.

    to quote an old credit card commercial:

    a handfull of old shipping and cigar labels off eBay: 16.00

    a sheet of plywood from home depot: 28.00

    a cheap late 19th century 'murcan wall clock: 60.00

    a little creativity and the ability to scam the antique auction community out of hundreds of thousands of dollars: PRICELESS!!!!!
     
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  26. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    I'm thinking the "Man from Glad"? Like, trash bags?

    glad.jpg

    RM
     
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  27. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Me, a repeat offender? :???:

    Again, I await some type of useful guidance on this and/or similar threads. Until something definitive is provided I'm going to need you to get all the way off my back about this Steve.

    I believe this Thread was started by an Admin of the Board. Is this another one of those "Do as I say and not as I do." situations? The Nixonian defense: "If a Moderator does it, it's not against the law?" :chuckling:

    Mostly, the Thread is just entertaining but it does have some potential to educate members. Supposedly that's what the NAWCC is all about. It would be nice if knowledge could be shared while it is still of some use to members instead of after the fact, but I know there are legal considerations.
     
  28. clocks4u

    clocks4u Registered User
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    Thought I heard/read somewhere that Horton's auction was sold and no longer owned by Carroll Horton.
     
  29. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    I think this most recent Auction (ended 7/31/19) may be his last one. Not sure. Someone named "Todd" is taking over the reins.

    From his webpage:
    "Although Carroll is no longer accepting consignments or buying clocks, Todd will continue the 45-year tradition. You can contact Todd by email or phone (859-312-9012) if you have better-quality clocks you would like to sell or consign. Our consignor's fee is the lowest in the business, at 10%."
    Source: Horton's July 2019 Auction
     
  30. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    wow... if that's just your thursdays, i'm not sure i want to know about the rest of your week! :)

    i assume there's already a thread on the forum about cutting animal vocal cords? i'll search for it...

    thx for cracking me up this a.m.
     
  31. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    a clarification for all ...

    i started this thread because i shop craigslist and eBay daily for clocks and keep stumbling upon these little gems. apparently others do, as well.

    the purpose of the thread is/was to highlight and/or make fun (nicely. wryly.) of folks who list clocks for sale without appearing to know what they're describing, what they're talking about, or basic grammar...

    the examples i've posted may or may not have been active listings but are all long since gone... and there were no links or other identifying marks. in fact, exact wordings were often modified slightly to protect the clueless. o_O

    when we stray toward auction houses, though, the path gets more dangerous. as pointed out in a previous thread auction houses are there to make money... which takes everything to a new level. we have the 'no links to or discussion of live auctions' rules in place specifically to protect the organization from potential legal issues.

    i would request that we keep it light and in good fun (and away from professional sellers) as i think there is probably and endless supply of source material out in the (sur)real world. :)
     
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  32. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    You want guidance? Read the rules and follow them. If you break the rules and the moderators find out, we have to take whatever action is indicated. If you break the rules and we don't find out, you get a get out of jail free card. We do not have time to put each post under a microscope to inspect them for rules violations. And I am sure there are many we do not catch, in particular, the use of pictures grabbed off another website and posted on this message board without permission of the owners. Too many to hunt down. So far as your post is concerned, if I encounter no serious objections from others on the admin team, I will restore it. I certainly would not like to see you fall into a deep depression over the issue. But as for now, the young lady and I are at an important point in Book 4:

    Tum vero infelix fatis exterrita Dido
    mortem orat; taedet caeli convexa tueri.

    Great stuff!
     
  33. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    is it just me, or is there something off about the phrase “43 one-of-a-kind clocks”?
     
  34. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Oh, I do read the rules and I do follow them Stevo. Had I not pointed out the active link for you to stumble across I suppose there would have been nothing for you to talk about.

    While I was glad that you took down the active link, your condescending "Tsk" was unnecessary and uncalled for.

    Thanks I guess. That's not the guidance I was asking for but so good of you to volunteer that information. I hope you're not accusing me of that behavior too.

    At this point I couldn't care less what you do about the original post in question. Leave it quarantine forever, restore it...whatever your busy schedule allows is fine with me. As far as anything you can say or do putting me into a deep depression, I think you have an inflated opinion of your opinion..

    What a horrible thing to do to a pet parrot. Did you pull the wings off of flies as a child too Thornberry? :screwball:

    Might I suggest that you just take the poor thing to a bird sanctuary or parrot adoption center? HOME Sounds like you and your wife would be happier and I'm quite certain that the Parrot would be too.
     
  35. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    Um Bruce..... I love you man, but perhaps you are taking your offense a little too far?

    Mostly what I get out of Stevens quips are simple dry humor. it seems plain to me that the parrot thing is just a silly euphemism for being too busy to fool with the little details. I really don’t think he has singled you out with any sort of vindictiveness. Can we please just kiss and make up? A nice big wet one on the lips?
     
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  36. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Brian, thanks for your concern but did you really think that I took Steven's parrot thing seriously? :chuckling:
    No, I was just going down a rabbit hole that was already there.
    Kiss? I don't think we're one another's type but "moving on" is a done deal as far as I'm concerned.
    No arguments....
    See you around.
     
  37. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Well, Horton released his auction results/prices last night. The "good" news is that, so far, not one of the folk-art cigar clocks has sold.

    A Moderator or Admin should quarantine post #273 since these clocks are still being offered to the public at post-action pricing. They will probably be available until sold or until they are re-listed in their next auction.

    I'm relatively new to antique clock collecting but I don't harbor any ill-will towards Mr. Horton. As a collector I like to see successful clock auctions because they indicate a healthy (or improving) market for antique clocks. Horton seems to be having some trouble moving this inventory. Perhaps there will be less motive for other Clock Auctioneers to run with them. I found it kind of amusing that each of the clocks was given a model name by someone. "King Carlos", for example. Why not? Artists give names their art if that's what has happened here. Perhaps it was more of a "theme" of each individual clock. "This Thing" probably wouldn't sell.

    Abbottstown, PA is only about eight miles up the road from where I live so I've been mildly interested in the controversy. I recently contacted the Adams County Historical Society regarding this business. According to them, Wilber Emory Haines (1870-1951) did indeed operate a Cigar factory in Abbottstown for many years so he was evidently more than just a cigar merchant/distributor. The Pennsylvania Dutch were/are a "Crafty" People. Arts and Crafts or Folk-Art is part of their heritage. I don't know if Mr. Haines was Pennsylvania Dutch in heritage, but craftsmanship comes with the territory.

    These clocks are what they are. Just so long as they are not misrepresented, and I personally don't think that Horton has done so, who really cares? The Historical Society have "Cigar Files" so, just out of my own curiosity, I may look further to see what I can find out but I'm personally not interested in these clocks at any price.

    Whether you like dealing with Horton or avoid him like the plague, I'm not so sure that he deserves a "red flag" here unless you want to flag him for questionable judgement. It looks like the Market may have already done so.

    Regards

    Abbottstown.jpg
     
  38. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    On this basis, I have removed several posts on the Horton auction from this thread to Q. I intend that they stay there. This shows one of the pitfalls of referring to active auctions.
     
  39. The Treasured Clock

    The Treasured Clock Registered User
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    Ice? I probably would not need to buy ice from someone who is selling ice. I would probably use the ice and snow in the northern most part of Alaska, that is if I live there. It may take a little work to get it, but it plentiful and available. I probably would freeze the water in my freezer section of my refrigerator and get the desired amount of ice I want. Why bother to buy it all the time? I wonder who else might think like this! Cameraguy32, Seth Thomas was not far along yet in making clocks. The clock you show is around the twentieth century. And probably Seth Thomas was making electric clocks a little later in the twentieth century. Representing an electric clock as the first one made by Seth Thomas might be a misnomer. The question is, when did Seth Thomas start making electric clocks? They had to meet the market demands, and of course things do change. Seth Thomas, to my knowledge and understanding, existed until around the 1980s.
    Jonathan Lee Jones
     
  40. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    I’m not sure then why one of my postings, which was quoted by others subsequently, appears to have been deleted?

    This to me is possibly a “red flag” of a Moderator overstepping his authority?

    RM
     
  41. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    You quoted the first "Horton" post of TAT. If I had simply removed the quoted section, your post would have had no context.
     
  42. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Tsk.

    If that’s the excuse you want to use.

    RM
     
  43. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Keeping the context of the thread title, a better way would have been to quote the "red flag" part that you wanted to share, and not link to an ongoing auction. It would have served your purpose without creating a potential legal issue. At this point, it's best to let it go and learn from it.
     
  44. JTD

    JTD Registered User

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    Steven's explanation seems perfectly reasonable to me.

    All that aside, I think it is very sad that this thread, which was started as a light-hearted list of odd/humorous/unusual descriptions, intended to brighten our day and make us smile, has degenerated into so much acrimony.

    Please can we put all this behind us and go back to what the OP intended- just the odd/strange/crazy listings we sometimes see that make us laugh?

    JTD
     
  45. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    To each their own.

    RM
     
  46. gleber

    gleber Registered User

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    "Cashmere Instagram clock 1885"

    I think it must have been originally purchased by their great grandfather on Facebook.

    Or maybe it was an early prototype cell phone with built-in camera.

    Either way it was way ahead of its time.

    Tom
     
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  47. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Feb 22, 2010
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    Whoa! I had stopped watching this thread and had no idea that the trouble I unintentionally started was still raging on.

    My apologies to everyone!

    I think we all appreciate that "Red Flags" aren't always a laughing matter. Most of us are experienced and knowledgeable enough to see right through the vast majority of bogus listings, but as Collectors, it's still far too easy to fall victim to mis-representations or out-and-out fraud. Many auctioneers have a "no backsies" policy and if you get burned by one of them, it can be a very expensive lesson.

    I like light, friendly and fun conversation too. I also like to learn. I think it would be nice if we can do both within this thread but if it is just for entertainment purposes, then so be it.

    Earlier, when I was asking Steven for guidance, it was not in reference to Horton, but rather in reference to a subsequent eBay listing I posted to this thread which did not have an embedded link. Another member made a very informative comment on the copied text and asked what type of clock was being described. I didn't link to it but I did inform him where I found the listing. With that information, it would be easy to find the listing by using eBay's search engine. Steven quarantined all post connected to that "Red Flag" as well, which made me feel as though he was riding my bumper a little too closely. Not only can you not link to an active listing, evidently you can't accurately quote to it either. If a listing is not active, how are you going to even become aware of it? :???:

    Fortunately, Bruce gave guidance when he stated that he sometimes will slightly alter the text of the listing he's posting for everyone's amusement thereby "protecting the clueless" (is how I think he phrased it).

    I should not have linked to Horton's auction. I opened a can of worms in doing so and again, I'm sorry. Even though I did not link to a specific clock initially, examples of the clocks in question were easy to find. This type of "NAWCC Legal Liability" discussion has popped up before. Actually, these Cigar clocks have direct connection to a NAWCC Member and he gained some exposure of them through a NAWCC Chapter Meeting. By extension, the NAWCC has lent its credibility to them. That is alarming to some of us and a bit of a sticky wicket for the Association. These things have been "restored" and there are questions about their legitimacy/authenticity.

    I come here to enjoy the company of like-minded collectors and to learn more about clocks and watches that I'm interested in. I appreciate the efforts of RM and all those like him who take a lot of their time to teach all of us more about Horology. That includes you too Steven.

    Fraud is only a laughing matter if you recognize it before your money has changed hands.

    May you all make well-informed decisions when adding to your collections.

    Please, carry on and have fun.

    Regards,

    Bruce
     
  48. fbicknel

    fbicknel Registered User

    Apr 14, 2017
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    ... Or, "will work for food"
     
  49. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jun 14, 2008
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    Recently, this year. a local TV station did a survey of people with "work for food" signs. They offered food for work to 62 people in their study. Guess how many folks accepted the offers? ZERO! While there are occasionally truly needy people who are begging on the street corners, it is very much the exception around here. Very sad.
     
  50. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Oct 19, 2005
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    Scammers are everywhere!!!:eek:
     

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