China movement

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Ed Schmitt, Aug 16, 2017.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Ed Schmitt

    Ed Schmitt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 30, 2003
    368
    0
    16
    Male
    CRNA retired
    Towanda, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I have in a T/S movement made in China. The movement has "E" clips holding everything in place, making it impossible to take it apart for any type of repair. I can't remove the top plate without everything exploding. Needless to say that both my clock school instructor and I have said it would be impossible to put back together. I told the owner that I would like to replace the movement. So I'd like to know if there is a replacement movement I can put in, in it place. Distance between winding arbors is 72 mm. Distance between winding arbor and the center arbor on both sides is 40 mm. It has a strike arm coming out of the bottom. Does anyone know of a replacement I can use.

    Ed Schmitt
    Shadows of Times Past
     
  2. David S

    David S Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 18, 2011
    7,174
    238
    63
    Male
    Professional Engineer - Retired
    Brockville, On Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Can you post a picture of the movement so we can better understand the issue and offer replacement suggestions.

    David
     
  3. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    12,495
    867
    113
    There are no replacement movements that I am aware of.
    This would be a good place for an upgrade, if available.
    Willie X
     
  4. JTD

    JTD Registered User

    Sep 27, 2005
    7,004
    395
    83
    Please post photos of this movement - I have never seen such a construction and would like to learn of it.

    JTD
     
  5. Ed Schmitt

    Ed Schmitt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 30, 2003
    368
    0
    16
    Male
    CRNA retired
    Towanda, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Here are 4 pic's of the clock and movement. Trying to get pictures between the plates did not show everything that I wanted. Hope you can help, as I'm just going to return it to the customer. Ed

    313691.jpg 313692.jpg 313693.jpg 313694.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  6. David S

    David S Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 18, 2011
    7,174
    238
    63
    Male
    Professional Engineer - Retired
    Brockville, On Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Ed first and foremost this movement is fully serviceable. I have done a number of them my self and will check my files.

    If by "E-clip" you mean the ones on the end of the winding arbor, they can be slide off from the side with a pair of pliers.

    Of course you have to let the springs down into the barrels before proceeding.

    David
     
  7. lpbp

    lpbp Registered User
    NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member NAWCC Member

    Aug 25, 2000
    2,867
    31
    48
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Fully serviceable, first let the springs down into the barrel, remove the holder for the click, remove click and remove clip. now the movement should come apart normally.
     
  8. woodlawndon

    woodlawndon Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 18, 2017
    626
    124
    43
    Male
    Woodlawn, Ontario
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Oh good, being so new at repair I didn't dare comment first, but those clips slide right off for removal. I just dismantled a Seth Thomas (made in Peterborough, Ont) recently that had many of those. You can even get those clips at most hardware stores if they are too fatigued to put back on.
     
  9. David S

    David S Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 18, 2011
    7,174
    238
    63
    Male
    Professional Engineer - Retired
    Brockville, On Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Wood.... we need more participation. If you have experienced a method that works for you, please share it. Of course there is diversity of opinion on this forum. However that helps beginners and seasoned folks as well.

    So please "dare to comment".

    David
     
  10. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    41,834
    931
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    North Carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I can't imagine your clock instructor advising you that it's impossible to put back together, Ed! It's just a clock. If someone put it together in the factory, it can be put together again.
     
  11. woodlawndon

    woodlawndon Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 18, 2017
    626
    124
    43
    Male
    Woodlawn, Ontario
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thank you David, I will in future. But without a doubt it is intimidating with so many experts here. I'm mostly here to soak up that knowledge but will try to offer more opinion.
    Don
     
  12. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    3,052
    299
    83
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I've done a few of these, and yours looks in pretty good shape. The major consideration is that that the steel in those E-clips and also in the mainspring clicks (ratchets) may be of poor quality. So you'll want to make sure that the clicks are in good shape and you'll likely also want to get a dozen or so E-clips to replace those you remove. Note also that the spring barrels are somewhat weird, but workable.

    Apart from that, Chinese (and Korean) clocks can be fun to repair, for they're cleverly made. Strike adjustments are easy and the escapements are quite good.

    M Kinsler
     
  13. JTD

    JTD Registered User

    Sep 27, 2005
    7,004
    395
    83
    Thank you for posting the photos. Now I understand what you are talking about.

    I agree with all the others, of course it is possible to take it apart and reassemble it again - why do you think it would 'explode'? Of course, as has already been pointed out, you must let the springs down first, but that is true of all clocks.

    Go ahead with the repair, and there are plenty of people who have 'been there, done that' to help you if you need them.

    JTD
     
  14. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
    12,495
    867
    113
    So Ed, what's the trouble you are having that requires a take apart. Nearly all of the trouble Ive seen with these movements is with the poorly designed click mechinism. It fails in some way, and the shock causes the mainspring to unhook and sometimes the bayonet style barrel unhooks from the spokes of the main wheel too. Not to much trouble to make things right.
    You don't have to split the plates to remove the barrels. The arbor can be shifted foward and there is a notched area of the winding arbor to allow the arbor to slide out to the side. This arbor and barrel disassembly doesn't work smoothly but if you persist, it will come out and can be put back together albeit with some difficulty.
    Note, this movement has been in production since 1962, maybe earlier. They became very prolific in the last 25 years.
    Willie X
     
  15. Ed Schmitt

    Ed Schmitt Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 30, 2003
    368
    0
    16
    Male
    CRNA retired
    Towanda, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I want to thank everyone for their imput. I've only been repairing clocks for just over 15 years, since completing the NAWCC clock school. I've seen many different movements. Yes, I know that the "E" clip are slid off the arbor they are attached to. But what you can't see is that there are "E" clips on both sides of the plates, which makes it hard to side it off with out removing one of the plates.


    Everything you see on the front plate has been removed with the exception of the rack hook, and the warning lever, which has "E" clips between the plates. I have no problem removing the gathering pallet.


    I don't have a tool that would allow me to remove the center cam. That has to be removed before I could remove the top front plate. Yes, I can lift the front plate off, but it will pull the center arbor and the gear at the bottom and everything between the plates (my explosion phrase) If I can remove the center cam, then I can remove the gears after removing more "E" clips. In one picture you see a spring between the rack and the rack hook. What you don't see it the "E" clip on the inside of the plate holding it to the front plate.


    My instructor indicated that it would be extremely hard to put it back together without first removing the center cam. The assembly of this movement was probably done by machines.


    As you can see, there does not appear to be any problem with the ratchets or click.


    Willie - In rechecking the winding arbors, they only pull up 1 mm. There is no notch area on either winding arbors. I had hoped that the winding arbor would pull out once the "E" clip was removed as usually found on other movements.


    What would it take to remove the center cam, and thus I hopefully would beable to make the repairs.


    Ed 313744.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  16. David S

    David S Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 18, 2011
    7,174
    238
    63
    Male
    Professional Engineer - Retired
    Brockville, On Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Ed I checked my files and I worked on three of those 5 years ago and I can't find anything in my notes that said I couldn't get them apart...or back together. I did note that I had to make a dummy arbor in order to get the main springs out with my winder.

    As Willie mentioned I recall a groove in the winding arbor so that when you pull it forward a bit it will slide out of the plates sideways.

    Now to make sure we are on the same page. The strike governor is not a conventional fly but rather a multi piece "fly-ball" type governor :???: like this
    313747.jpg

    David
     
  17. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 19, 2005
    41,834
    931
    113
    Male
    Self employed interpreter/clock repairer
    North Carolina
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    If you flip it over and remove the back plate first, I think it would avoid the issue you have identified. Put it back together the same way.
     
  18. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

    Aug 17, 2014
    3,052
    299
    83
    Male
    Science teacher, writer
    Lancaster, Ohio, USA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Yep. Most clocks with press-on cannon pinions seem to have nuts on both sides. The nuts that you'd remove (preferably after avoiding high adventure by letting down the mainsprings first) are holding that black mounting bracket onto the back plate.

    My preferred method for removing the cannon pinion from the minute hand arbor is with an arbor press. On many, (perhaps most) jobs it's not necessary to do this at all, though I usually do because it simplifies pivot polishing and simplifies re-assembly somewhat.

    To remove the cannon pinion, screw the hand nut back onto the minute-hand arbor to protect the threads first, and you may or may not have to take the center wheel and its clutch apart as well. But then the press can push the minute hand arbor out of the cannon pinion without much effort and no hammering.

    To re-install the cannon pinion I generally wait until the plates are back together and everything works well, after which the cannon pinion can be tapped back onto the arbor with an appropriate hollow punch that will fit fairly closely around the minute hand arbor. This works a lot better (especially with thin plates) if you support the rear pivot of the minute hand arbor with a wood block so that the plates don't tend to spring apart. And if you've bushed that rear pivot, the block also prevents you from knocking out that bushing as you're hammering away.

    Any sort of a steel tube or pipe will work as a cannon pinion punch if its inside diameter is small enough. Also remember that you can rotate the bushing on the minute hand itself to make up for any error in the position of the cannon pinion.

    M Kinsler
     
  19. Jay Fortner

    Jay Fortner Registered User

    Feb 5, 2011
    5,023
    26
    38
    Clockmaker/Watchmaker
    Chiefland,Fl.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    After letting the springs down and removing the ratchet gears rotate the winding stem opposite normal rotation. This will unhook the spring from the stem allowing it to pull up and expose the slot in the stem which allows the assembly's slide out the slots in the plate.
     
  20. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

    Oct 11, 2010
    13,666
    68
    0
    Calif. USA
    Nothing much more to add except that when you turn the
    winding arbor backwards to release the center, the spring gets
    bent a little. You will be unlikely to rehooking it without
    prebending it a little at the center such that it is ready to
    catch the hook when putting things back together.
    I'll add that when removing E clips, I use two methods.
    I both cases, I put a rag where I expect the clip to go flying.
    The first method is to use a flat nosed pliers. I tilt it just
    enough to catch the ends on one jaw and the arbor on the other.
    I push it together.
    It usually sill hangs a little but there is enough room now
    to get a pick to catch it and slide it off ( done forget the rag ).
    If inside where I can't get a straight shoot, I press it from the side
    with a screw driver and use a right angle pick to pop it off.
    This does no damage to the clip and they are 100% reusable.
    If you fail to use the rag, you'll learn why we used to have
    names for these while I was in the service.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  21. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

    Dec 2, 2016
    3,762
    279
    83
    watchmaker
    Western NSW or just this side of the black stump.
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    I have never had a problem repairing these movements. There is not a great need for removing the centre shaft but if you need to, then everything else must be removed first. It is a simple matter to knock it out when it is the only thing still attached.
     

Share This Page