Chime duration much too long. Westminster chiming mantel clock – Harold.

[Jonanic]

Hello. I live near Cambridge, England UK, I am new to, and learning clock terminology, I have tools and I am repairing my first clock. It is a Harold clock (UK) and the movement was made in Baden, Germany.
I recently bought a second-hand vintage Westminster chiming mantel clock with chimes not working. I found that the strike train 'governor vane' had slid along its pin and caught in the teeth of a strike train wheel, locking the strike train and two of the chime hammers with it. Now that is fixed, the clock chimes correctly BUT only when I move the minute hand, by-hand, quickly past each quarter. If I leave the minute hand to run at normal speed then the chimes flirt begins to lift at about 5 minutes to each quarter. This begins to lift the strike flirt, on which a 'tab' disengages from a slot in a 'stop wheel' in the chime train and chiming begins early and continues for 5 minutes or so. The end of the chime flirt is lifted each quarter by one of four teeth on a four-toothed-gear behind the minute wheel. As the chime flirt climbs the curved leading edge of each tooth, for about 5 minutes, it holds the tab on the chime flirt above the slots in the chime locking plate and the tab on the strike flirt above the slot in the chime chain 'stop wheel', so the chimes sound continuously for about 5 minutes with the strike sounding every full rotation of the chime locking plate. Eventually, as each quarter-hour is reached, the end of the chime flirt drops down the 'steep' trailing edge of the tooth on the four-toothed-gear behind the minute wheel, the chiming flirt drops and with it the strike flirt such that the tab on the strike flirt drops into the slot in the chime train 'stop-wheel' and the chiming stops.
It is as though the chiming flirt has been bent so as to start the chiming too early but I can't imagine this happening in normal use and because it is flat-sectioned for rigidity, I wouldn't expect it to bend easily.
Can anyone suggest a cause and a fix please?
Also, there is a sprung pin located in the chime locking plate which acts on a tab on the chiming flirt to lift the chiming flirt just before the hour. I can't see what function this has. It does not trigger the strike as this is triggered by the high point on the chiming lock plate, lifting the chiming flirt and hence the striking flirt high so as to unlock the strike train and drop the rack. Can anyone tell me what the sprung pin is for please?
Attached images show 1. general view of the back of the movement, 2. 'Tab' on the strike flirt located in the chime train stop wheel, 3. Strike flirt with tab at the top going through the back plate to the strike train stop wheel and tab at the bottom locating in the chime locking plate, 4. side on view showing the 4 tooth gear behind the minute wheel and the end of the chime flirt riding on one of the four teeth.

 

[wingardclocks]

It's hard to comprehend whats happening exactly with your choice of words. I think you're discussing "warning" and "levers"
Anyways, It's probably easier to address one problem at a time ( seperate gear trains).
Very well could be that the center wheel bushing is worn and the star is not lifting the lever high enough to put the chime into warning. If you advanced the minute hand very slow it would most likely react the same as the clock running on it's own power.
The movement with all probability needs overhauled. Pic #1 is the front.

Some good advice. you can't repair something IF you do not how it works to begin with. Steve Conover sells an easily explained book on chime & strike functions, buy it. If any person would ever take a class on clock repair, the class would be, theory first, repair second.

I am self taught. I read books for over a year before attempting any repair. 40 years later, what took me a week to do (german WMC overhaul) now take 4 hours, and I'm still learning.

 

[Jonanic]

Thank you Jack for your helpful advice, guidance and comments which I will follow up.
You are correct, if I move the minute hand slowly it does react the same as the clock running on its own power.

 

[JTD]

It is a Harold clock (UK) and the movement was made in Baden, Germany.

I have never come across a HAROLD clock, movement made in Baden. I would be very grateful and interested if you would kindly post some photos of the name and the movement.

Thanks in advance.

JTD

 

[tracerjack]

Your chimer is most likely out of alignment. As already posted, in order to evaluate if the levers, stop pins and detents are working properly, you must know how they interrelate. Steven Conover’s book on Chiming Clocks is well worth its cost. Once you understand how your chimer works, you will receive all the help you need from this forum to help get it going again.

 

[Mike Phelan]

It's the German movement marketed in UK as "Perivale" and other names. One of the best 3-train movements here - I have one. Not sure what you refer to as flirts, but it seems as it this needs a proper clean and oil to start with.

Make sure that nobody has moved toe position of the count wheel on its arbor, as that is fairly critical. Also, the little device behind the count wheel for the self-correct must move properly.

Let us know if you need more details.

 

[tracerjack]

For a quick explanation, when the center star cam begins lifting about 5 minutes before the quarter hour, it is supposed to release the chime train (warning run). The train begins to move, but is then supposed to be stopped until the quarter hour is reached. It is usually stopped by a pin on one of the upper wheels which hits a tab (detent). When the levers finally fall off the star arm, the tab drops out of the way, and the chime train begins at the proper time. The pins often get broken off (but are easily replaced) which will cause the chime train to run on. I believe the Perivale has an adjustable lever to catch the pin, but I am not sure. If it has moved, that would also cause the chime to run on. Perivales are very nice movements, so the odds of you getting this one repaired is very good.

 

[tracerjack]

Just in case this might help. This is my Perivale working properly. Perivale chimer

 

[Jonanic]

It's the German movement marketed in UK as "Perivale" and other names. One of the best 3-train movements here - I have one. Not sure what you refer to as flirts, but it seems as it this needs a proper clean and oil to start with.

Make sure that nobody has moved toe position of the count wheel on its arbor, as that is fairly critical. Also, the little device behind the count wheel for the self-correct must move properly.

Let us know if you need more details.

Thank you very much.
Here is a diagram I obtained from the NAWCC showing the flirts... maybe also called levers? (excuse me I'm new to this).

 

[Jonanic]

I have never come across a HAROLD clock, movement made in Baden. I would be very grateful and interested if you would kindly post some photos of the name and the movement.

Thanks in advance.

JTD

Here are more photos of the movement showing the name 'Harold' and @Made in Baden'

 

[Jonanic]

Just in case this might help. This is my Perivale working properly. Perivale chimer

Hello and thank you very much for your 3 replies. This is very helpful information and video. I feel that by reading up further as per yours and others suggestions here Ishould be able to understand the mechanisms properly and so hopefully spot the cause of the issue. Very helpful, thank you.

 

[tracerjack]

There are threads in the archives on Perivale. Use the magnifying lense in the upper right. This one might also help since it began as a Perivale bag of bits

 

[JTD]

Here are more photos of the movement showing the name 'Harold' and @Made in Baden' View attachment 744608 View attachment 744609 View attachment 744610

Thanks very much for posting these pictures - I had not come across 'Harold' before and good to know it is one of the Perivale movements.

It would be interesting to know which company made this movement.

JTD

 

[Simon Holt]

It would be interesting to know which company made this movement.

This may be of interest: Collections Online | British Museum

And this: Collections Search | British Museum

Simon

 

[Mike Phelan]

Thank you very much.
Here is a diagram I obtained from the NAWCC showing the flirts... maybe also called levers? View attachment 744607 (excuse me I'm new to this).

That's a completely different movement from the Perivale. The warning lever does not have the "release" - on #24; it just uses the star on the cannon pinion to start the chiming. Though these Perivales sometimes say "British Made" on the back plates, they were indeed as Perivale is a London suburb, they were made my a German company made here!
The timing of the count wheel is quite critical.
The mainspring barrel and its cover sometimes need bushes otherwise will foul the 2nd wheel on the going train.
"Flirts" are probably a USA term, but here were used on clocks pre-1900 striking or chiming that had no warning system.

 

[Jonanic]

There are threads in the archives on Perivale. Use the magnifying lense in the upper right. This one might also help since it began as a Perivale bag of bits

Many thanks for this tip.. Very intersting 'bag of bits' with lost of similarities to my movement.

 

[Jonanic]

This may be of interest: Collections Online | British Museum

And this: Collections Search | British Museum

Simon

Thank you. What a fascinating resource. I don't recognise my clock in your 'Perivale clock' search. There are zero results for 'Harold clock' (as you probably know) and nor can I see my clock in a my search for 'Mantel clock'.
Attached is a photo of the case, just incase this helps in any way. The numbers are not simply painted on, but actually stand out from the dial face.

 

[Jonanic]

That's a completely different movement from the Perivale. The warning lever does not have the "release" - on #24; it just uses the star on the cannon pinion to start the chiming. Though these Perivales sometimes say "British Made" on the back plates, they were indeed as Perivale is a London suburb, they were made my a German company made here!
The timing of the count wheel is quite critical.
The mainspring barrel and its cover sometimes need bushes otherwise will foul the 2nd wheel on the going train.
"Flirts" are probably a USA term, but here were used on clocks pre-1900 striking or chiming that had no warning system.

Thank you for these helpful tips. Interesting that you consider it a completely different movement from the Perivale. It's a mystery. In this link posted by Simon Holt in this thread (thanks Simon) Collections Search | British Museum it says of the Perivale clock manufacturing company ' BiographyClock manufacturing company. Founded in 1932, with a factory at 2 Wadsworth Rd, Perivale. still active 1964. Used Anvil trademark, connected to Anvil, Baden, later used Britannia trademark. '
So Parivale were 'connected' to Anvil, Baden'.
So was it perhaps manufactured by Anvil in Baden for Harold?

 

[Jonanic]

Thank you. What a fascinating resource. I don't recognise my clock in your 'Perivale clock' search. There are zero results for 'Harold clock' (as you probably know) and nor can I see my clock in a my search for 'Mantel clock'.
Attached is a photo of the case, just incase this helps in any way. The numbers are not simply painted on, but actually stand out from the dial face. View attachment 744789

I also found this: chiming clock | British Museum
The Curator says:
'
Curator's commentsThis clock is marked 'Anvil Made in Baden' trademark. These are thought to have been made by Fichter & Hackenjos to supply the wholesalers 'Andrew & Co' in London, though this is unproven as yet.

Crutch adjustable (later Perivale made Anvil clocks do not have this feature).
The clock uses a Haller and Benzing design with a number of modifications, which were subsequently adopted as deemed appropriate by Perivale and Davall.

So could my movement have been made by Fichter & Hackenjos for Harold and then later, a modified design being later used by Perivale - hence the similarities to a Perivale movement??

 

[Jonanic]

That's a completely different movement from the Perivale. The warning lever does not have the "release" - on #24; it just uses the star on the cannon pinion to start the chiming. Though these Perivales sometimes say "British Made" on the back plates, they were indeed as Perivale is a London suburb, they were made my a German company made here!
The timing of the count wheel is quite critical.
The mainspring barrel and its cover sometimes need bushes otherwise will foul the 2nd wheel on the going train.
"Flirts" are probably a USA term, but here were used on clocks pre-1900 striking or chiming that had no warning system.

I have also foound this: Collections Online | British Museum
Here it states of the Haller & Benzing clock company 'B iographyClock manufacturing company, based in Schwenningen, Germany. Made industrial and domestic clocks. Ceased trading in 1928. The design of their patented three-train movement was subsequently used for all perival three-train chimers until the 1960s and for post 1933 chimers.'
So - maybe mine is a Haller & Benzing movement and looks similar to the Perivales which were leter modified versions of the Haller & Benzing design??

 

[tracerjack]

You have a lovely case and a well made movement. I think the chances for a successful repair are high no matter which company actually made your clock. While chimers aren’t the best to begin with, the result in the thread “Perivale bag of bits” was successful, so it can be done. After reading your original post once more, it seems very likely the warning run is not functioning. As for the spring on the back of the chime locking plate, from my Perivale, that is part of the chime correction feature. With the ability to silence the chimes, this feature (as the name “chime correction” implies) corrects the chimes when turned back on. Chime correction will lock the chime train after the 3/4 chime plays. Only the longer star arm on the center cam is able to lift things out of that lock at the hour. You mentioned you have tools and this is your first movement to repair. Were you planning to take the movement completely apart for cleaning? Also, do you have the means to remove the mainsprings for cleaning. Last, you probably already know this, but simply out of caution, don’t remove anything until you let down the mainsprings. A little more detail on what plan to do will help us, help you.

 

[Jonanic]

You have a lovely case and a well made movement. I think the chances for a successful repair are high no matter which company actually made your clock. While chimers aren’t the best to begin with, the result in the thread “Perivale bag of bits” was successful, so it can be done. After reading your original post once more, it seems very likely the warning run is not functioning. As for the spring on the back of the chime locking plate, from my Perivale, that is part of the chime correction feature. With the ability to silence the chimes, this feature (as the name “chime correction” implies) corrects the chimes when turned back on. Chime correction will lock the chime train after the 3/4 chime plays. Only the longer star arm on the center cam is able to lift things out of that lock at the hour. You mentioned you have tools and this is your first movement to repair. Were you planning to take the movement completely apart for cleaning? Also, do you have the means to remove the mainsprings for cleaning. Last, you probably already know this, but simply out of caution, don’t remove anything until you let down the mainsprings. A little more detail on what plan to do will help us, help you.

''You have a lovely case and a well made movement'' Thank you. Thanks to your (and others') comments this is all beginning to make sense! I agree with you, it seems likely the warning run is not functioning. (Hurray! It makes sense!)
Thank you also for explaining the sprung toggle on the back of the chime locking plate - I can see how that would work (Hurray! It makes sense too!).
In an earlier reply, of the chime train you said ' I believe the Perivale has an adjustable lever to catch the pin '. Indeed my movement has. I could see this come into play when the 'silent' lever was engaged but it seems likely it should also operate as the 'warning stop' (if I can call it that) but is not operating.
The adjustable stop lever is easy to move but I need to work out which way to move it and by how much.
I might take the movement apart to clean and oil it eventually but planned to get the chime function working properly first, if it proves possible to achieve this without cleaning. Thank you, I will certainly let down the mainsprings before taking anything apart.
Next step though is to try adjusting the adjustable stop leaver!
Thanks again.

 

[tracerjack]

I have a Perivale waiting in line to be cleaned. If you get stuck, I’ll move it to the top and with some photos or video, we can sort out the problem with yours.

 

[Jonanic]

I have a Perivale waiting in line to be cleaned. If you get stuck, I’ll move it to the top and with some photos or video, we can sort out the problem with yours.

That's very kind of you, thank you. I have now fixed the clock. The fix was to adjust the arm so that the tab arrested the stop pin when the movement went into warning.(i.e. as you indicated).
Nevertheless I would be interested to see any photos or videos you care to make when cleaning the Perivale.
Thanks again for your help, guidance and advice.

 

[tracerjack]

I am glad you got the problem sorted out. Will be happy to send photos or video. If there is something specific you’d like to see, you can private message me by clicking on my name, then use the “start conversation” button.